need advice about denitrator for 250+ reef with too many FISH

[tomtoothdoc]

before we start, as the title says, too many FISH, please refrain from advice like get rid off the fish....not gonna happen. that said, let's roll:

~250-270gal. total volume. 200gal.(48x36x27) bare bottom reef with fish display. 55gal.(30x18x25) refugium with 6.5 dsb -caribbe sea oolite 1-2mm plus chaeto and some red macro from domboski. 75gal.(48x18x22) sump. 350-400 lbs live rock(mostly in the display). 1/3 hp chiller. ato with ro/di. 200 micron 7x16" filter sock (removed as of today to see if the nitrate level change). msx 300 skimmer with 2x sicci pumps-forgot the flow rate but working very well-wet skimmed -clean every 2-3 days. fluval 405 with no sponge just 6x bags of chemipure-rinse every 3 weeks change at 4 months rotating 2 new ones every 1-2 months. tlf phosban reactor-change every 3 weeks.

flow: return with mag 7 (ball valve controlled) to a spray bar in the refugium which also has a koralia nano. display gets 2x mag 9.5's to 4x loclines flare nuzzles. 4x koralia 3's, 4x moded koralia 4's--all 8 controlled by redsea wavemaker and a tunze naostream 6045 on constantly, 4x koralia 3's will be replaced by 2x mp40 vortech's very soon.

lighting: 2x 250w mh and 4x 54w t5's/ upgrading to 2x 400w mh + 2x 110w vho...still building the track/hanging mechanism.

corals: acro's, monti's-encrusting, digitata & caps.,stylo, pocillo, porites, birdnests, clams, chalices, acans, duncans, dendro's, favias, favites, bubbles, torch, hammers, pagodas, lobos, mushrooms, rics, zoas, palys, xenia's, sponge.

inverts: turbo's, nassarius, pistol shrimp, cleaner, fire, peppermint, harlequins (in the fuge away from the linkias), urchins, emerald crabs, linkia's, chocolatechips-in the sump-food for the harley's.

fish:
4-5" moorish idol, copper banded butterfly, female bellus angel, female swallowtail, purple tang, linear blenny, red spotted blenny.
3-5" 7x various wrasses.
~3" flame angel, 2x blothced anthias, midas blenny, blue spotted jawfish(in the fuge's sand bed).
~1" possum wrasse, yellow cleaner goby(in the fuge due to their size).
total of 21 fishes or ~75-85" of fishes/ 1" per 3.2-3.6 gal. ratio

parameters:
salinity ~1.025 (pinpoint monitor and retractometer)
temp ~79-80 (digital)
amonia 0 (api)
nitrite 0 (api and seachem)
alk: ~9 (api)
calcium ~420-440 (api)
mag ~1300 (salifert)
phos ~0.02-0.05???(seachem/ 0-api/ don't have a hanna meter)
nitrate ~anywhere from less than 10 to 30's (pinpoint nitrate monitor calibrated to 10 and up).
the above values are pretty constant except for the nitrate.
weekly water change with reef crystal between 35-70 gal. depending on the nitrate reading.
ro/di ~0-2 ppm monitored with 3 tds meters. top off with ato.
chaeto gets trimmed every 2-3 weeks or so.


the 200gal. was set up in november '08. ran for about 2 months with just live rock, dsb, chaeto, and clean up crew(that was the only time i have ever tested a "0" nitrate). then livestocks and live rocks from the 75 gal., 15 gal., and 10 gal.(all were upgraded/transferred among various tanks starting back 4-5 yrs. ago) were transferred in one day, only one cleaner shrimp was lost after the transfer.

since then more livestocks(coral, fish, inverts) were added there were some minor casualties.

had been struggling with nitrate since the start 4-5 yrs. ago from 45 gal. to 75 gal. to now. tried caulerpa, more macro, more frequent water changes, 50% water changes, cut down on feeding, rinsed frozen food, lotions, potions, prayers......etc. not willing to dose vodka/sugar directly in the tank.

anyone with first hand experience with denitrator, please advise on advantages and disadvantages with the method(sulfur, carbon feeding, coil, etc.) you're using. what influenced your choice of method and what are the results?

please help. i'm tired of struggling.
oh forgot to mention, the "negative" effect of the nitrate observed is that some acro's, monti's, birdnests lost their original(when obtained) colors or pe's. some faded, some "browned", some are growing, some aren't, some has pe's, some don't, but none died. and it appeared that some regained colors/pe's from month to month possibly in accordance with nitrate level.

thanks for reading such a long post, tom

 

[Bob 1000]

Only one denitrifier that really works the way they are suppossed to work, the natureef denitrifier.. I've been running mines for a couple of years now... It allowed me to overstock tanks and do water changes when I felt like it(doesn't sound very responsible),,lol..
This denitrifier also gives off trace elements as a end product of the process that cycles nitrates down to 0 every 4 hours.. The end product that the nitrate cycle leaves behind is Alkalinity... This reactor also has a phosphate option that cycles phosphates down to 0 and the end product of that process that goes back into your system after the cycle is stronium,another trace element.. You will still need to run something like a a calcium reactor/doser though..
I have spoken with the makers of this product coral reef research group and they are a very knowledgable group of people..
Please don't fall for the sulfur denitrifiers they leave sulfur behind as the chemical reaction that cycles nitrates down to 0 happens, thus leaving you having to do water changes..

 

[18oreefer]

Bob1k, That sounds like a nice system esp, the part that you can ad on to cycle down your po4. I have a aquaripure denitrator that cycles down nitrates threw a natural anerobic bacterial process. I dont know if it produces trace elements but i do know I have 0 nitrates. The only maintence is dosing vodka every couple days and adjusting the outflow due to bacterial blooms in the denitrator. The only con I can see with the system is the water returned to the system is compleatly depleted of o2, but thats not a big deal because its in a 180 and the out flow is rite next to the skimmer intake. I love the damn thing. Iv got over a dozen fish in my tank and 4 of them are big tangs. You can check the denitrator out at www.aquaripure.com

 

[Bob 1000]

I tried that denitrifier and quickly let it go because every denitrifier builds a nice culture of bacteria which it cycles the nitrates down to 0 with, but that also clogs the drip denitrifier... I'm more of a set it and forget it for a while and then clean once in a while.. My calcium reactor gives me enough hassle with he clogging only because I won't put a pump on the intake I'm using natural syphon and have to check the clogging once a month,,lol..
The methanol it uses for nitrate reduction is what makes the chemical reaction Alkalinity in trace amounts not enough for sustaining a system, and stronium nitrate for the phosphate removal leaves behind stronium..

 

[ClosetFishGeek]

I used the large Sulfur Denitrator from Midwest Aquatics.....http://www.midwestaquatic.com/PRODUCTS/sulfur_denitrifier.htm
All I can say is that it worked like a champ on my system which had a much higher bio-load than yours...It kept my nitrates at <10 always. As was said before just vent the efluent into a turbulent area. Other than that I loved my denitrator.

 

[bigsink]

I 2nd Midwest Aquatics. I have mine running 8 months and it is beast. I got it at ClosetFishGeek reccomendation!

 

[Bob 1000]

Are you guys still doing water changes?? With the sulfur left behind and all, Or is it that you haven't been running them long enough for the sulfur to build up to lethal levels??
Also what size are your systems??

 

[ClosetFishGeek]

Are you guys still doing water changes?? With the sulfur left behind and all, Or is it that you haven't been running them long enough for the sulfur to build up to lethal levels??
Also what size are your systems??

I will always do water changes......:splitspin and I ran mine for close to 2 years....never a problem...ever....My system was over 300 gallons..Im curious as to where you saw this problem ? Any info would be appreciated. The only thing you do with this unit is clean it out every 3-6 months. Thats.

 

[Galantra]

I went with the Natureef denitrifier like bob1000, I ended up going with this unit than buying a Dialysea. This unit is basically constantly doing water changes removing nitrates and also with the option to even remove phosphates that seems like a win for me. I have done my research and found that the people that apply this system really do go a long time without water changes and still being able to house SPS and delicate fish with no situation.

 

[Bob 1000]

Every chemical we use in our systems leaves behind traces wether it be good or bad through chemical reactions and sulfur doesn't break down to anything less than sulfur..
You really still do water changes all the time.. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having a denitrifier.. You can keep you nitrates at nearly 0 with adequate water changes on a regular basis.. I started useing a denitrifier to cut back on water changes.. Keeping my water more stable and it allowed me to keep any Sps at colors better than I have seen in a lot of tanks.. I'll post some sps pics in a couple months when I know my colors are at their peak again.. detroyed them and the should be dead with all the alk swings I've had with almost no dosing,,lol.. But most tanks would have killed the sps I still have, just browned out.. My denitrifier has held a 125 gallon tank/sump with no rock in it for close to 3 month's.. It doses good bacteria with every flush every 4 hours.. I'm sure it stil needs rock for a system to be more stable but for now not too may sps keepers can say they have done what I have with my system..

 

[cali_reef]

The methanol it uses for nitrates is what it makes the trace element Alkalinity from, ..

Alk is a trace element in your tank?

 

[ClosetFishGeek]

Every chemical we use in our systems leaves behind traces wether it be good or bad through chemical reactions and sulfur doesn't break down to anything less than sulfur..
You really still do water changes all the time.. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having a denitrifier.. You can keep you nitrates at nearly 0 with adequate water changes on a regular basis.. I started useing a denitrifier to cut back on water changes.. Keeping my water more stable and it allowed me to keep any Sps at colors better than I have seen in a lot of tanks.. I'll post some sps pics in a couple months when I know my colors are at their peak again.. detroyed them and the should be dead with all the alk swings I've had with almost no dosing,,lol.. But most tanks would have killed the sps I still have, just browned out.. My denitrifier has held a 125 gallon tank/sump with no rock in it for close to 3 month's.. It doses good bacteria with every flush every 4 hours.. I'm sure it stil needs rock for a system to be more stable but for now not too may sps keepers can say they have done what I have with my system..

The reason I got the denitrator was to help with my stocking level. My reef system is not typical. I have many large tangs,4- 5+ inches, triggers 7+ inches, and 20+ smaller fish.....in addition, I have over 50 types of sps, and montis.....This is why I chose this route...It is partly due to my own issue of overstocking...(which i dont endorse)... not lack of maintnence. With regards to water changes I feel and always will feel that water changes do so much more than just reduce nitrates...
I am not nocking your system as abviosly it works...I am just stating my flawless experience with the sulfur denitrator I have used. I am now in the works of creating a new system(much larger) to house my overcrowded tank....:splitspin

 

[ClosetFishGeek]

I went with the Natureef denitrifier like bob1000, I ended up going with this unit than buying a Dialysea. This unit is basically constantly doing water changes removing nitrates and also with the option to even remove phosphates that seems like a win for me. I have done my research and found that the people that apply this system really do go a long time without water changes and still being able to house SPS and delicate fish with no situation.

I was reading about this system....Am I missing something...does it mix water/salt and actually do a water exchange ?

 

[Bob 1000]

Alk is a trace element in your tank?

Something we dose that the system requires, not a trace element...
Is Alkalinity a reaction from different elements aka a measurement??? Calireef..

 

[cali_reef]

Keeping my water more stable and it allowed me to keep any Sps at colors better than I have seen in a lot of tanks.. I'll post some sps pics in a couple months when I know my colors are at their peak again.. .

Lets see how they looked at the previous peak.. I know you take pictures but I have yet seen from you a picture of said "better" sps color in the last two year.. Ones I have seen had green algae on the glass and water was dirty yellow.

 

[cali_reef]

Look up trace vs. minor....

RIF.

Please don't preach unless you understand.

 

[Bob 1000]

The reason I got the denitrator was to help with my stocking level. My reef system is not typical. I have many large tangs,4- 5+ inches, triggers 7+ inches, and 20+ smaller fish.....in addition, I have over 50 types of sps, and montis.....This is why I chose this route...It is partly due to my own issue of overstocking...(which i dont endorse)... not lack of maintnence. With regards to water changes I feel and always will feel that water changes do so much more than just reduce nitrates...
I am not nocking your system as abviosly it works...I am just stating my flawless experience with the sulfur denitrator I have used. I am now in the works of creating a new system(much larger) to house my overcrowded tank....:splitspin

Lot's of people would call it lack of maintnence, but I think my lack of maintnence kept a more stable enviroment that allowed me to do some crazy things with no ill affects, I ran a undersized uv turbo twist the small one.. Dropped tangs in my system full of ich,,, like flower battered and the next 2 days they were fine.. The other fish weren't affected by the ich either..
As far as all the trace elements in the different types of salt mixes.. My calcium reactor with a mixture of carib seas stuff I forget the name off head, and dolomite I got from a vendor that is no longer here (very knowledgable though) My corals are doing excellent and in my opinion stronger than the average sps tank.. Based on color and ability to stay alive in the mess I have created the past 2 to 3 months in my sump/tank..
I guess sulfur denitrifiers are fine if you want to do water changes like you don't have a denitrifier..

 

[Bob 1000]

Lets see how they looked at the previous peak.. I know you take pictures but I have yet seen from you a picture of said "better" sps color in the last two year.. Ones I have seen had green algae on the glass and water was dirty yellow.

Dirty yellow water,,,,LMAO.... Maybe 10k bulbs, if that.. Green algae,,, only last summer when I made my nutrient levels go higher to feed my tangs off the the rocks creating a more natural enviroment and allowing me to keep delicate tangs without them not eating..

A lot of people here have seen my system in it's prime... I wish you could could have seen something other than a picture of a transitional experiment that you have been dwelling on everytime I you get the opprtunity..
As for pictures I just learned how to use and got a good camera recently..
Got to love people like you though,,, keeps me going:shhh:.....lmao..
Happy reefing

 

[Bob 1000]

Look up trace vs. minor....

RIF.

Please don't preach unless you understand.

What is RIF???
I really don't mean to sound like I'm preaching this is why I prefer to speak in person about this rector than write about it.. I miss so much, and can really loose people.. My bad..
You still didn't answer the first question and your asking more questions... Are you looking up what I already know????
Natureef denitrfier,, I know and understand more than you buddy..

 

[Galantra]

I was reading about this system....Am I missing something...does it mix water/salt and actually do a water exchange ?

Yes, With the diaysea it does mix saltwater and adds it into your system basically lot of probes that reads the level of the tank and keeps it leveled. The reason why I didnt go with it because it removes calcuim and other trace elements more often.

With Natureef there is a reactor that hold a good amount of water that gets flushed into the tank that has been cycled which removes nitrates and phos. And this process happens more than a couple of time a day got to ask Tobin more since he is a pro at it. All information i have i got for reading up and talking to the company my unit is still in a box