Everything about sand.

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My parakeets don't squaker

nanoreefer22 said:
I was a squawker! Peep the parrot duh!! :lol:
I got some finch to play with my parakeets and hope that the parakeets will learn the love songs of finches but it turn out that after I moved the parakeets into the finch cage, the parakeets don't make any sound. They used to inmitate any sound/noise they hear, some times they sound like sparrow and sometimes sound like running water faucet!
 

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It come from my head

solbby said:
My thoughts exactly. Where are you getting all your information from?
:joke: :joke:

Serious now.
It come from my research with a biologist on an agricultural study years back.


Question: Does anyone knows what are the composisiton of the black sand that come in the Ecosystem?
 

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One of the Sand filtration methods I am trying to MOD

Originally Posted by Aquarium USA 2000 annual said:
The Jaubert method is much more difficult to explain than it is to set up. Basically, a plate, not unlike an undergravel filter plate, is placed on the bottom of the tank, on top of which a thick layer of live sand is spread. Live rock is place on top of this thick sand layer so that not more than 20 percent of the sand is covered.

Over time, the lower layers of the sand will contain less oxygen and eventually become low in oxygen (anoxic), but not totally without oxygen (anaerobic) * the sand will still contain about 1 part per million (ppm) oxygen. In this low oxygen environment, certain bacteria that can only survive in this type of environment will develop. They are capable of converting nitrate into nitrogen gas, which will then bubble out of the system.

In order for all of this to occur, natural microfauna need to be present to keep the sand stirred up. Similarly, the system also needs to contain large sand-sifting organisms, like hermit crabs and gobies, to reduce the likelihood of the sand compacting and becoming anaerobic.

While this system is rather simple and easy to set up, many aquarists who have tried it have not followed the guidelines devised by Dr. Jaubert precisely and have run into problems. Only when the guidelines are strictly adhered to can any success be achieved.

One of the biggest problems is getting the "right" live sand. The live sand typically available is too fine, and, more importantly, it rarely contains any of the valuable burrowing organisms that are necessary to make the system work. As a result, nutrients accumulate in the sand that eventually cause microalgae to overgrow everything.

Another factor limiting the success of this system is that when it is set up no more than 20 to 25 percent of the tank's bottom should be covered by live rock. Otherwise, too much of the live sand will be compacted under the rock and burrowing orangisms will not be able to keep the sand clean. This will also result in algae overgrowth.
When I described sandbed, I usually referred to the situation above because they are more like the real world where the sandbed covers much more area than the reef. I have been a fish guy-all my tank have very big open sandbed surface plus I always have lots of small fish that dig the sand. That probably explained how my 52 cichlids survived happily in my 55G tank. However, after reviewing this artical again, I look at pics of reef keepers nowadays and noticed that reef keepers like to cover the whole tank with rocks in disregard to BB, DSB or SSB. That's most reef keepers like to view is the rock portion of a reef system ignoring volume of the water, sand and aglae. Therefore, despite the effort of putting a sandbed underneath these rocks by a reef keeper, the natural way of denitrification hardly become anoxic. Over time, nitrate can only be removed in anaerobic manner. Now, this explains the results for my previous experiment why laying the my top/bottom sand on wide container do not yield rotten egg smell. However, these results hardly applicable to current reef keeping because reefers still like to have tons of rock on top of tiny little sandbed! To solve that and immitate natue, we can use a sump with open sandbed area bigger than the display tank! This approach bothers me though-keeping a sump/refuge bigger than my display!!!! I think you wouldn't go that route either.

Therefore, I am proposing a new in-tank MOD to Jaubert method to simulate the nature. If the results are good I will let you guys know. Hope this new MOD will bring more interest to the sandbed lovers.
 
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kimoyo

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"Over time, the lower layers of the sand will contain less oxygen and eventually become low in oxygen (anoxic), but not totally without oxygen (anaerobic) * the sand will still contain about 1 part per million (ppm) oxygen. In this low oxygen environment, certain bacteria that can only survive in this type of environment will develop. They are capable of converting nitrate into nitrogen gas, which will then bubble out of the system.

In order for all of this to occur, natural microfauna need to be present to keep the sand stirred up. Similarly, the system also needs to contain large sand-sifting organisms, like hermit crabs and gobies, to reduce the likelihood of the sand compacting and becoming anaerobic. "


Some of what you just posted doesn't make sense and goes against certain physical principles.

WingoAgency said:
That's most reef keepers like to view is the rock portion of a reef system ignoring volume of the water, sand and aglae. Therefore, despite the effort of putting a sandbed underneath these rocks by a reef keeper, the natural way of denitrification hardly become anoxic. Over time, nitrate can only be removed in anaerobic manner.
You seem confused about this, anoxic refers to an environment lacking oxygen and anaerobic refers to a process without oxygen.

WingoAgency said:
Now, this explains the results for my previous experiment why laying the my top/bottom sand on wide container do not yield rotten egg smell. However, these results hardly applicable to current reef keeping because reefers still like to have tons of rock on top of tiny little sandbed! To solve that and immitate natue, we can use a sump with open sandbed area bigger than the display tank! This approach bothers me though-keeping a sump/refuge bigger than my display!!!! I think you wouldn't go that route either.

Therefore, I am proposing a new in-tank MOD to Jaubert method to simulate the nature. If the results are good I will let you guys know. Hope this new MOD will bring more interest to the sandbed lovers.
I'm not following what your saying here.

My suggestion would be to read many different sources of info on this. A lot of the stuff on the internet isn't correct. Also looking at actually academic (not hobbyist) research papers and books can help. Randy Holmes-Farley has some good chemistry papers on RC. Goodluck.
 

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Agreed that a lot of the stuff on the internet is not correct!

kimoyo said:
"Over time, the lower layers of the sand will contain less oxygen and eventually become low in oxygen (anoxic), but not totally without oxygen (anaerobic) * the sand will still contain about 1 part per million (ppm) oxygen. In this low oxygen environment, certain bacteria that can only survive in this type of environment will develop. They are capable of converting nitrate into nitrogen gas, which will then bubble out of the system.

In order for all of this to occur, natural microfauna need to be present to keep the sand stirred up. Similarly, the system also needs to contain large sand-sifting organisms, like hermit crabs and gobies, to reduce the likelihood of the sand compacting and becoming anaerobic. "


Some of what you just posted doesn't make sense and goes against certain physical principles.
I just re-quote somebody else article in an aquarium magazine :p

kimoyo said:
You seem confused about this, anoxic refers to an environment lacking oxygen and anaerobic refers to a process without oxygen.
I do know the difference. Thanks for reminding.

kimoyo said:
My suggestion would be to read many different sources of info on this. A lot of the stuff on the internet isn't correct. Also looking at actually academic (not hobbyist) research papers and books can help. Randy Holmes-Farley has some good chemistry papers on RC. Goodluck.
Agreed. I just post some hobbyist articles because they are easier for some beginners to understand me rather than using academic ones. At first when I posted some formulas, ppl seems to be baffled so I try the easier explantion but not so accurate ones to indicate a point. Hmm, looks like actually there are a lot of experts here. Randy Holmes-Farley's stuff is good, especially he also suggests a lot of DIY stuff instead of just using commercial ones.

Anyway, full heartedly thanks for your suggestions.

Also, I find out I need to improve my English first.
 
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kimoyo

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WingoAgency said:
At first when I posted some formulas, ppl seems to be baffled so I try the easier explantion but not so accurate ones to indicate a point.
Wingo,

Solbby and I weren't confused we just thought what you were saying was incorrect. That's why we were asking where you got your info from.

Paul
 

jawwad2004

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After reading up on sandbeds here on MR and other articles, I still have one question:
Obvioulsy using sand from an old tank is mos def. not recommended, however can that sand be used for the bottom layer of sand and then topped off with 2 -3 inches with fresh new sand? Will the old sand leak nutrients through the new layer? Would it be beneficial since the bottom layer is supposed to be deprived of oxygen anyways?
 

Deanos

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jawwad2004 said:
however can that sand be used for the bottom layer of sand and then topped off with 2 -3 inches with fresh new sand? Will the old sand leak nutrients through the new layer? Would it be beneficial since the bottom layer is supposed to be deprived of oxygen anyways?
How will you prevent oxygen from reaching the old sand when you place it in the new tank? :scratch:

Sand is too inexpensive in this hobby to worry about saving some from a DSB.
 

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Don't do it!

jawwad2004 said:
After reading up on sandbeds here on MR and other articles, I still have one question:
Obvioulsy using sand from an old tank is mos def. not recommended, however can that sand be used for the bottom layer of sand and then topped off with 2 -3 inches with fresh new sand? Will the old sand leak nutrients through the new layer? Would it be beneficial since the bottom layer is supposed to be deprived of oxygen anyways?

It does work the way you think. <----Typo before. I edited to make it right in the following

It does NOT work the way you think <---- Actually, I mean this.
 
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jawwad2004

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Deanos said:
How will you prevent oxygen from reaching the old sand when you place it in the new tank? :scratch:

Sand is too inexpensive in this hobby to worry about saving some from a DSB.
Well it wouldnt be going into the main display, its going to be going in the fuge. However I just wanted to try it to see if it would be beneficial. Regardless I just ordered 40 lbs of fine aragonite sand for my 10 gallon fuge which should make a pretty deep sand bed
 

kimoyo

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jawwad2004 said:
After reading up on sandbeds here on MR and other articles, I still have one question:
Obvioulsy using sand from an old tank is mos def. not recommended, however can that sand be used for the bottom layer of sand and then topped off with 2 -3 inches with fresh new sand? Will the old sand leak nutrients through the new layer? Would it be beneficial since the bottom layer is supposed to be deprived of oxygen anyways?
Like Deanos said you have to take the sand out and I'm not sure how you wouldn't oxygenate it.

Even if you did get the sand out with getting oxygen in it, it still wouldn't work. There is a lot of confusion on why oxygen doesn't get to the bottom layers. If you get a tall bucket (say 4 ft) and pour water onto the top, very soon that water (with oxygen) will be at the bottom. But the reason the bottom layers in a DSB don't see oxygen is because the top layers use it up in aerobic processes and not because it can't get down there. The nutrients or oxygen in the water work by diffusionary processes. Which is why I don't believe some hobby "experts" when they say a sandbed needs infauna to get nutrients to the lower levels. To me, this would seem to even work against the diffusion process and help oxygen to get lower.

So you would still need to have established top layers to keep the bottom layer good.
 
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