...some chit chat...
01[13] <Jason> hey guys
[13] <cycolac> i usually check once a week to make sure my estimates are still in line.
01[13] <Jason> 5 minutes!
[13] <John> weekly here also
01[13] <Jason> i hope more people show up
[13] <John> hi jason
01[13] <Jason> anybody here post in the forum?
[13] <John> not i
[13] <cycolac> not in reefs.org.
01[13] <Jason> ok
01[13] <Jason> just checking
01[13] <Jason> did you guys see the reef micro forum on reefs.org and my posting there?
[13] <cycolac> no. how can i get to it?
01[13] <Jason> there's a link on the MACO site, under our class section
01[13] <Jason> we have our own forum to discuss stuff related to class
01[13] <Jason> one of my concerns was the skill level of people in both reefing and science
01[13] <Jason> it seems we have some people who have never had a tank yet
01[13] <Jason> and as we can see here already
01[13] <Jason> some who are already pondering sulfer reactors
01[13] <Jason> sulfur
[13] <cycolac> i cliked on it, logged into reefs.org, but it says the forum does not exist.
[13] <John> hehehe
01[13] <Jason> ok, contact wade about getting rights
[13] <walla2butterfly> Yea I had the same problem sent and email but it came back to me
01[13] <Jason> really.
01[13] <Jason> ok
[13] <walla2butterfly> so I sent another email but still waiting
[13] <John> do i need it now???
01[13] <Jason> i didn''t post anything there that was imperative for class today
[13] <John> ok
01[13] <Jason> simply an opportunity for people to introduce themselves
01[13] <Jason> let me know their background
01[13] <Jason> i want to make sure EVERYONE gets something from this class
01[14] <Jason> hm. 2PM, 5 logged on including instructor. from what i hear we have over 15 people in the class
[14] <mchia> You need to send Wade your forum user ID.
[14] <mchia> to get access to the forum.
01[14] <Jason> don't worry
01[14] <Jason> there's nothing but the welcome thread there right now
[14] <walla2butterfly> I sent it but the email came back for some reason sent another waiting
01[14] <Jason> only 4 or 5 people posted
01[14] <Jason> what address are you sending to? are you using your own email system or MACOs?
[14] <walla2butterfly> mine
01[14] <Jason> are you sending to "[email protected]"?
[14] <walla2butterfly> yes
01[14] <Jason> jeez
[14] <walla2butterfly> The second one I sent was this morn so hopefully it was just a fluck on the first one coming back
01[14] <Jason> fingers crossed
01[14] <Jason> but again, it's not crucial for today
01[14] <Jason> but it is a nice way to discuss things as peopel think about them
[14] <cycolac> i got two sent to that same address rejected
[14] <walla2butterfly> yea as things pop in your head
01[14] <Jason> exactly
01[14] <Jason> also lets you guys discuss things with each other
01[14] <Jason> asside from the chat session
[14] <walla2butterfly> kind of like passing notes in class LOL
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01[14] <Jason> just talking - even better
01[14] <Jason> one person posted in the forum that the reading was incomprehensible
01[14] <Jason> i just want to let people know that it's ok if you don't absorb all of it right away
01[14] <Jason> i basically want people to be able to talk the same language
[14] <walla2butterfly> the lecture was okay but struggled a little with the article. Figured it would just be time before it all fell into place
01[14] <Jason> i'm basically providing a reference for later discussions
01[14] <Jason> so we can talk using established definitions
01[14] <Jason> sometimes forum discussions get bogged down in misunderstandings
[14] <walla2butterfly> did wake up the brain. Was early 90' when I last took bio classes
01[14] <Jason> that's ok
01[14] <Jason> it's also obviously a little heavy early on
01[14] <Jason> in order to get across a little crash course in the basics
[14] <John> glad to hear that
[14] <walla2butterfly> so words were familar but lost to the brains file system as for meaning
01[14] <Jason> another reason was that i wasn't sure of the skill level of the audience
01[14] <Jason> since reefing is a biological hobby
01[14] <Jason> some may have some either formal or self education in some of the stuff
[14] <walla2butterfly> I looked at the lecture as getting us going but the article was where we were going
01[14] <Jason> and i want there to be something new for those folks as well
01[14] <Jason> yeah, that article was neat
[14] <cycolac> to which article are you all referring?
01[14] <Jason> there's a lot in there that is relevant to our systems
[14] <Bob> This type of network class is new to me. Can you present your expectations?
[14] <walla2butterfly> well I lost power for 30 hrs, lost some LS and felling all guilty and up pop this class
01[14] <Jason> Bob: There isn't any testing or assignments, so my expectations are for people to advance their knowledge of the workings and role of bacteria in their aquaria
[14] <walla2butterfly> that is "feeling"
01[14] <Jason> cycolac: Microbial Structuring of Marine Ecosystems
[14] <walla2butterfly> so why are others taking this course
[14] <cycolac> jason: where is that article found?
[14] <John> trying to get better at it - gets less expense if u don't screw up as offen
01[14] <Jason> i posted it on the MACO site under our class section. you can download the pdf from there
[14] <mchia> I had a recent battle with cyanobacteria & hope that this course will be of some help.
01[14] <Jason> i think it can help
01[14] <Jason> once you get a "feel" for the microbiological workings in the aquarium
[14] <walla2butterfly> and lots of contradicting info out there
01[14] <Jason> YES
01[14] <Jason> so i presume that for the people present
01[14] <Jason> we understand that bacteria play a crucial role in our aquariums
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[14] <Bob> I often fight rising levels of nitrates in my tank and I'm experimenting with the use of macro algeas / plants to keep it in balance. I was hoping to get information on the possibilities to accomplish this.
01[14] <Jason> so i don't need to explain why we're even talking about this in the first place
01[14] <Jason> Bob: definitely
[14] <walla2butterfly> ditto
01[14] <Jason> denitrification, or reducing nitrate levels is like the holy grail of reefing
01[14] <Jason> there are a lot of methods
[14] <cycolac> ok. i can't seem to find the "class section" on the maco website. please send me a link.
[14] <mchia> Do I need to refer to the given materials during this session?
[14] <mchia> http://www.aquaristcourses.org/Reef%20M ... f%20micro/
01[14] <Jason> thank you!
[14] <walla2butterfly> I had questions as I read but then would find the answers as I read on
01[14] <Jason> i was going to go over the material in a somewhat linear fashion
[14] <walla2butterfly> go for it
01[14] <Jason> buit not belabor irrelevant points
01[14] <Jason> but
01[14] <Jason> ok
[14] <cycolac> wait a minute...is this reef microbiology or reef chemistry????
01[14] <Jason> reef microbiology
[14] <Bob> I've started three marine tanks to date and all three went through a cyno bateria state. Almost overnight it disappears. Is this a normal bateria cycle?
01[14] <Jason> "normal" varies!
01[14] <Jason> if things settle down and equilibrate then yep
[14] <mchia> Mine doesn't.
[14] <cycolac> d'oh!!! sorry.
01[14] <Jason> no prob
[14] <cycolac> Wade told me it started today...i guess he didn't realize i was signed up for chemsitry. do you know who the instructor is for that one?
01[14] <Jason> isaac hagenbuch
[14] <cycolac> would that be [email protected]?
[14] <olaf> Reef Chem starts monday the 14th
01[14] <Jason> i'm going to start going over relevant points
01[14] <Jason> you're all welcome to assk questions regarding not only facts but implications if you want
01[14] <Jason> Bob makes a good starting point for the relevance of what we're about to learn
01[14] <Jason> "was my cycle normal?"
02[14] * cycolac ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: )
01[14] <Jason> i think that because setting up every tank can be different
01[14] <Jason> it can be very helpful to have a feel for what is actually going on
01[14] <Jason> for example
01[14] <Jason> i just recently set up a tank and ordered some BEAUTIFUL live rock from premium aquatics
01[14] <Jason> kaelini, collected earlier in the week from when i ordered
01[14] <Jason> so very, very fresh
01[14] <Jason> my intentions were to have a biotope-style setup and preserve as much life as possible
01[14] <Jason> even hitchikers!
01[14] <Jason> i was curious about what would grow out after a while
01[14] <Jason> so i had it overnighted instead of normal 2-day
01[14] <Jason> and when it came it wass gorgeous
01[14] <Jason> COVERED in life, no bad smell
[14] <walla2butterfly> biotope style: doesnt that mean cycling with LR or something else
01[14] <Jason> now, because of my intentions, i couldn't do the "bucket of death" method
01[14] <Jason> biotope means a captive system representative of an actual natural locale
[14] <walla2butterfly> ty
01[14] <Jason> preserving as much of the chain of organisms as possible
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01[14] <@Jason> nor would it be feasible to do an ammonia spike-type cycle as some do with shrimp
01[14] <@Jason> so in this case, the cycle i chose was diferent from what might be done otherwise
[14] <John> explain
01[14] <@Jason> shrimp?
[14] <John> yes
[14] <olaf> I am unfamilar with this with shrimp thing...
01[14] <@Jason> some add a piece of dead shrimp in order to introduce decaying material to the system to "jump start" the growth of ammonia consuming bacteria
[14] <olaf> o
[14] <John> ok
01[14] <@Jason> similarly, the "bucket of death" type method lets things sit and aggressively die-off, also to generate ammonia and "jump start the cycle
01[14] <@Jason> but ammonia is toxic
01[14] <@Jason> so getting back to my example
01[14] <@Jason> those methods would kill whatever i already had on my live rock
01[14] <@Jason> so this is an example where having a feel for things like bacterial dynamics can be useful
01[14] <@Jason> because setting up one tank isn't always the same as setting up another with different inhabitants
01[14] <@Jason> additionally
01[14] <@Jason> having a feel for the microbiology can also help with other tasks/problems
01[14] <@Jason> the implications of feeding
01[14] <@Jason> dosing phytoplankton, for example
01[14] <@Jason> detritus buildup
01[14] <@Jason> evaluating your filtering for your own tank inhabitants
01[14] <@Jason> and possibly moidifying them or tweaking them
01[14] <@Jason> general life-cycle within the tank
01[14] <@Jason> things die
01[14] <@Jason> throw things off balance
01[14] <@Jason> if you have a feel for microbiology you can know when to react, and when not to overreact
01[14] <@Jason> so i'll start off with the basics that i think are relevant
01[14] <@Jason> the bacteria that we are most concerned with are lithotrophs, which means they get their energy from metabolism of ammonia
01[14] <@Jason> single celled organisms
01[14] <@Jason> they reproduce by fission
01[14] <@Jason> wthey elongate and split in half
01[14] <@Jason> each half IMMEDIATELY starts intitiating reproduction again
01[14] <@Jason> if food sources are available
01[14] <@Jason> which means that the division is geometric
01[14] <@Jason> 1>2>4>8
01[14] <@Jason> so populations can expand as fast as nutrients and mechanical constraints of actual growth allow
01[14] <@Jason> some bacteria are motile
01[14] <@Jason> which means they can move about
01[14] <@Jason> they can move towards food sources, and as we'll see later actually prey on phytoplankton
[14] <mchia> The article said they exhibit swarming behavior to kill them.
01[14] <@Jason> bacteria may directly consume only nitrogen based compounds like ammonia
01[14] <@Jason> (well, the one's we are concerned with)
01[14] <@Jason> or carbon
01[14] <@Jason> but there are ways they can actually go get it from their environment
01[14] <@Jason> break things down
01[14] <@Jason> there are also certain relevant adaptations to the environment
01[14] <@Jason> bacteria can vary depending on oxygen requirtements
01[14] <@Jason> aerobic bacteria require oxygen for metabolism
01[14] <@Jason> anaerobic bacteria actually require that oxygen be absent
01[14] <@Jason> BUT
01[14] <@Jason> there is a middle ground
01[14] <@Jason> called "facultative anaerobes"
01[14] <@Jason> these bacteria can make do in either environment
01[14] <@Jason> this leads us to one of the first common misunderstandings in reefing i'd like to address here
01[14] <@Jason> now, mind you
01[14] <@Jason> we will get into the specifics of the nitrogen cycle in later lectures
01[14] <@Jason> but i'd like to throw some reefing-related bones out there
01[14] <@Jason> so by introduction
01[14] <@Jason> or review for some
01[14] <@Jason> the prevailing idea is that anaerobic conditions are required for denitrification
01[14] <@Jason> but faculatative anaerobes can pplay a role
01[14] <@Jason> there is a great deal of variability in metabolism
01[14] <@Jason> in bacteria
01[14] <@Jason> and from the great variety of habitats
01[14] <@Jason> have come a great variety of coping mechanisms
01[14] <@Jason> and what i jsut mentioned is one of them
01[14] <@Jason> so aside from cyclolac who was in the wrong class
01[14] <@Jason> has everyone here been through the reading?
[14] <John> yes
01[14] <@Jason> or maybe, raise your hand if you weren't?
[14] <mchia> Yes, I have read all the readings.
[14] <olaf> yes
01[14] <@Jason> ok.
01[14] <@Jason> i'm not going to delve too deeply into the basics which may not be relevant to this course
01[14] <@Jason> but i do think the reading of the textbook passages was important in order to provide perrspective
01[14] <@Jason> in terms of the variety of life and coping mechanisms
01[14] <@Jason> structure
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01[14] <@Jason> growth characteristics
01[14] <@Jason> the idea that the growth of bacteria is geometric is important
01[14] <@Jason> because it underlies the dynamics behind a bloom
01[14] <@Jason> that one might get from overfeeding
01[14] <@Jason> or a DEATH IN THE TANK
01[14] <@Jason> oops yelling
[14] <John> or a start up?
01[14] <@Jason> exactly
[14] <olaf> geometric exponitally
01[14] <@Jason> yeah, the idea that if there's a rich source of food, things will grow at max speed
01[14] <@Jason> but that food will get consumed rapidly as well
01[15] <@Jason> better to have incremental changes
01[15] <@Jason> than one big one
01[15] <@Jason> so getting back to my example that i started with earlier
01[15] <@Jason> with my super-fresh live rock
01[15] <@Jason> i didn't want ammonia to spike
01[15] <@Jason> and kill things off
01[15] <@Jason> i actually had a colony of soft coral
01[15] <@Jason> so in that case
01[15] <@Jason> rapid swings would be deadly to that at the very least
01[15] <@Jason> or high ammonia
01[15] <@Jason> so i did what is called a soft cycle
[15] <John> can i ask a question?
01[15] <@Jason> of course
[15] <John> is ammonia always related to your nitrate or nitrite? level
01[15] <@Jason> decaying material breaks down after many degradive steps to ammonia
01[15] <@Jason> ammonia gets oxidized to form nitrite
01[15] <@Jason> then nitrite gets reduced to form nitrate
01[15] <@Jason> nitrate comes from ammonia
02[15] * @wade ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout)
01[15] <@Jason> so the two are connected
[15] <John> so if u have no nitrite - u have no ammonia?
01[15] <@Jason> not necessarily
01[15] <@Jason> lett me explain
[15] <John> ahhh the plot thickens
01[15] <@Jason> if you're starting up a tank
01[15] <@Jason> and you introduce some material, say live rock
01[15] <@Jason> it will typically come with a dusting of detritus
01[15] <@Jason> (dead material)
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01[15] <@Jason> additionally, some little bits of life on the rock may not like your tank
01[15] <@Jason> so it dies
01[15] <@Jason> once this dead material gets broken down, it forms ammonia
01[15] <@Jason> but as i said, ammonia gets broken down over time to nitrite, which gets broken down over still more time to nitrate
01[15] <@Jason> so after a couple of days , you might see your ammonia levels rise
01[15] <@Jason> you have ammonia
[15] <John> so where does the sulfer gas come in at?
01[15] <@Jason> but since it takes time for the ammonia to a) get processed and b) for the bacteria that process ammonia to get up to speed in terms of numbers of organisms
01[15] <@Jason> then you may not have nitrates
[15] <John> and does it make a difference in the difference of the grains of ssand?
01[15] <@Jason> so that is an example of a situation where you may have ammonia but no nitrates
[15] <John> k
01[15] <@Jason> grains of sand!
[15] <John> yes size
01[15] <@Jason> that sounds like you've been doing some reading on denitrification
[15] <John> used fine sand had bad experince
01[15] <@Jason> interesting, how deep wass it?
[15] <John> couse seems better
[15] <John> 3+inches
[15] <John> course
01[15] <@Jason> the finer the sand, the less circulation of water you will have through it
[15] <John> seemed to create sulfer gas
01[15] <@Jason> so a 3" sandbed of fine sand won't have very good circulation
01[15] <@Jason> yes
[15] <olaf> You need things to turn your sand
[15] <John> this was a start up
[15] <John> killed a lot of them in begining
[15] <John> crabs
[15] <olaf> snails
[15] <olaf> worms
[15] <John> them too
[15] <John> no worms
01[15] <@Jason> that sounds terrible
[15] <olaf> too much too quick(?)
[15] <olaf> what was the time frame?
[15] <walla2butterfly> I have lots of fire worms in mine is that good
[15] <John> first bloom was 4 weeks then again at 120 days
01[15] <@Jason> yeah, sand-sifting organisms help
[15] <olaf> it sounds like a Ammonia spike that could have done this not sulfur
[15] <John> long time ago now but would not like to do it again
[15] <walla2butterfly> can you have too many? only see at night so assume it is good
01[15] <@Jason> there was a real gem of a sentence in the longer review, "Microbial structuring.."
01[15] <@Jason> oops, the other one
01[15] <@Jason> "Modern Microbial Seascapes"
01[15] <@Jason> last sentence on page 755
01[15] <@Jason> "Except for the upper few millimeters, most of this enormous sub-seafloor catalytic converter is anaerobic"
[15] <John> patience?
[15] <walla2butterfly>
[15] <olaf> I have one 42-g saltwater with 4"+ of oolite three snails turning it and 5 fish 30lbs live rock very little filtration snad is acting like the filter bed.
[15] <olaf> sand^
01[15] <@Jason> i like it
[15] <John> fine or course?
[15] <John> or both?
[15] <olaf> super fine
01[15] <@Jason> do you have an idea of what your flow is like?
[15] <walla2butterfly> have a sand sifting cucumber as well seems to work
[15] <olaf> XP1 plus a hang-on filter
[15] <olaf> Rena XP1
01[15] <@Jason> been up for a while?
[15] <olaf> rarely change anything in the filters maybe once a quater or half a year
01[15] <@Jason> how old is the tank?
[15] <olaf> going on 3 years
01[15] <@Jason> nice!
01[15] <@Jason> so, anybody struck by that sentence i quoted?
[15] <walla2butterfly> except hate metric but will survive
[15] <John> why do we need deep sand beds?
01[15] <@Jason> lol
[15] <olaf> I do power-wash the sand bed once a month.
[15] <walla2butterfly> ?
[15] <olaf> release of some gases
[15] <olaf> powerhead w/ clear tube
[15] <walla2butterfly> I hear you dont want to do that to a new tank though
[15] <olaf> gases are nitrogen
[15] <walla2butterfly> I use my hands but I will keep that way in mind
01[15] <@Jason> so what i was getting at in that sentence
[15] <walla2butterfly> specially after I found out just how many worms are in there now
[15] <walla2butterfly> attention class
[15] <olaf> the top is aerobic
[15] <John> ? why not 1 inch as opposed to 3 or 4? if its the top few millmeters?
[15] <olaf> and the other is anaerobic respiration
01[15] <@Jason> is that the idea that a really deep sandbed is necessary to create an anaerobic, oxygen-dprived environment for denitrification is overly exaggerated
[15] <walla2butterfly> more area for the anaerobic to take place I assume
01[15] <@Jason> yes
01[15] <@Jason> but it's a common misbelief that it NEEDS to be very deep to have ANY denitrification
01[15] <@Jason> deeper may = more denitrification
01[15] <@Jason> but shallow does not = NO denitrification
01[15] <@Jason> can we take a 10 min break?
[15] <olaf> I have found with a deeper sand bed I have more worms and different kinds
[15] <olaf> k
01[15] <@Jason> i'll expand on this when we gat back
[15] <John> sure
[15] <olaf> k
[15] <John> so when you come back tell me - do you belive that a sulfer reactor and shollow sand would be a good combo?
[15] <John> I will be starting up a new tank later this year
[15] <walla2butterfly> I was wondering if this is the wade that I have been trying to email about not getting on to the forum
[15] <walla2butterfly> what size are you going to start up?
[15] <John> it will be a restart - moving 125 and a 40
[15] <walla2butterfly> cool, I have made a stand for a 125, scared to go with anymore weight in my old house LOL
[15] <walla2butterfly> But decided to redo the floor because once it is set up it isnt moving
[15] <John> 40 has deep bed -125 shallow
[15] <walla2butterfly> will be interesting what we walk away with in this course
[15] <John> ahh this old house rebuild
[15] <John> sounds like fun
[15] <olaf> With all my new start-up I use everything "live". Live sand a mixture of Nature's Ocean Reef Sand and Reef Substrate and Carib Sea Ocean Direct and try to get at least 2.5" to 3.5" deep
[15] <walla2butterfly> My current tank ( 2yr) I used playsand, thought I would add LS later, but it populized itself before I got around to it but the new one I will
[15] <olaf> I use ocean water from Nature's Ocean, Catalina Bay water Company (Petco $12 = 5-gal) and Carib Sea New Ocean water.
[15] <John> did u have aa bloom?
[15] <olaf> I usually try to do the same thing Jason was talking about with the LIVE ROCK
[15] <walla2butterfly> that is cool, the only SW seller in my community is getting out of SW
[15] <walla2butterfly> so it is drive or buy on line
[15] <olaf> I get it flown in from Bali to my Distributors then it sits in his tanks for less then a week before I go and pick it up
[15] <olaf> no bloom's
[15] <olaf> never even see ammonia
[15] <John> thats what i would love to expreince
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[15] <olaf> I also add bacteria and plankton
01[15] <@Jason> olaf: that's awesome
01[15] <@Jason> the fresh oput of bali
01[15] <@Jason> out
[15] <olaf> yep
01[15] <@Jason> i tried doing that with my last tank
01[15] <@Jason> no substitute for the diversity you get
[15] <olaf> how did it turn out
01[15] <@Jason> pretty cool
01[15] <@Jason> quite a bit of coraline variation
01[15] <@Jason> at least 6 or 7 macroalgae
[15] <olaf> I ended up getting a great amount of inverts and corals
01[15] <@Jason> the usual suspects liek halimed, plus some beautiful pink types
01[15] <@Jason> halimeda
01[15] <@Jason> a colony of Alcyonium
[15] <olaf> I got some plate coral
01[15] <@Jason> a small tube anemone
01[15] <@Jason> a cute little red, white and blue nudibranch
[15] <olaf> it first looked like a flower anemone then moved down to the sand
[15] <John> love those guys
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[15] <olaf> and started looking like plate
[15] <olaf> now it is the size of a nickle
[15] <walla2butterfly> do you know how cucumbers reproduce?
01[15] <@Jason> my tube nem won't come out in the light
[15] <olaf> too close?
[15] <olaf> I got some nuds also
01[15] <@Jason> no, even if i turn on a room light after lights-out it just contracts
[15] <olaf> chitons
01[15] <@Jason> stays closed all day
[15] <olaf> when do you feed it?
01[15] <@Jason> rarely - it's tiny
01[15] <@Jason> size of a quarter
[15] <olaf> it must be getting micro-inverts like copopds at night
01[15] <@Jason> lives off the land
[15] <olaf> sweet
01[15] <@Jason> oh, before i get back to what we were talking about
01[15] <@Jason> john asked a question
[15] <olaf> I tried a sulfur reactor one one of my clients aquariums didn't make a difference
01[15] <@Jason> "sulfur reactor + shallow sandbed"?
01[15] <@Jason> are your nitrates a problem?
[15] <John> not now just thinking about after move and new start
[15] <olaf> the sulfur was gone out of the reactor after a month and some of the agregate was disoloved
[15] <olaf> disolved
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01[15] <@Jason> then i'm not sure i would bother
[15] <olaf> I would be very careful
[15] <John> ok
01[15] <@Jason> ok, back to topoic
01[15] <@Jason> topic
[15] <olaf> the bi-product could effect the other organisms
01[15] <@Jason> one of the reasons i gave out actual scientific literature if that very sentence i quoted
01[15] <@Jason> "Except for the upper few millimeters, most of this enormous sub-seafloor catalytic converter is anaerobic"
01[15] <@Jason> for fishie
01[15] <@Jason> it's been known for a while that the oxic/anoxic boundary, or the layer demarcation where oxygen gets depleted, is only a centimeter or so down in most marine substrates
[15] <Fishie> Hi, all. I was waiting for 2:00 to logon. It seems, I've missed quite a bit. It was not mentioned it was 2:00 EST
01[15] <@Jason> oh, but i mentioned it on the forum post and email?
01[15] <@Jason> sorry for the misunderstanding
[15] <Fishie> I'll catch up
[15] <mchia> It was mentioned on the forum, its 2-5pm EST
01[15] <@Jason> i should be able to forward the logs to you
[15] <Fishie> thx
01[15] <@Jason> no prob
01[15] <@Jason> now, what i mentioned is in contradiction to a good deal of hobby literature
01[15] <@Jason> namely, that denitrification can't occur in tanks with shallow sandbeds
01[15] <@Jason> and that the sandbed needs to be very deep in order to accomplish any appreciable denitrification
01[15] <@Jason> but numerous studies in scientific literature point demonstrate that oxygen is gone within MILLIMETERS down
01[15] <@Jason> how is this?
01[15] <@Jason> this gets bcak to what i was saying about having a feel for the microorganisms
01[15] <@Jason> back
01[15] <@Jason> we've already discussed some relevant knowledge
01[15] <@Jason> a) bacteria in aerobic environmnets are likely to be oxygen consuming
01[15] <@Jason> b) as long as there's a food source they grow
01[15] <@Jason> c)growing means more of them, not "bigger"
01[15] <@Jason> so putting all this together
01[15] <@Jason> the oxygen depletion so near the surface can be explained
01[15] <@Jason> by the fact that the growing respiring bacteria near the surface, in the aerobic oxygen-rich layer
01[15] <@Jason> actually use up oxygen at a rapid rate
01[15] <@Jason> and the water gets depleted of oxygen before it gets very far
01[15] <@Jason> now,
01[15] <@Jason> in a hypothetical system where the sand and waterr are completely sterile and devoid of lilfe
01[16] <@Jason> oxygen may actually circulate substantially farther down
01[16] <@Jason> because nothing is consuming it on the way down
01[16] <@Jason> but because the flow is substantially reduced by tight-fitting grains of sand
01[16] <@Jason> and the bacteria colonize the surface of sand grains very densely
01[16] <@Jason> one can start to visualize how this oxygen depletion is occurring at such a shallow level
01[16] <@Jason> does that make sense?
[16] <olaf> Yes
[16] <John> yep
[16] <James> Yes
01[16] <@Jason> cool
[16] <Fishie> got it
01[16] <@Jason> this brings us to another topic
01[16] <@Jason> the idea of microenvironments
01[16] <@Jason> the larger review article, "Microbial Structuring..." goes intno depth about this concept
01[16] <@Jason> and really colors in the details
01[16] <@Jason> helps to visualize the concept, instead of jsut understanding the word
01[16] <@Jason> In normal seawater, open ocean, the concentration of bacteria is roughly 100 per cubic millimeter
01[16] <@Jason> 1000, sorry
01[16] <@Jason> in a milliliter of water, the number approaches 10e6, or 1 million
01[16] <@Jason> but in microcommunities, like the grains of sand, or marine snow, the numbers go much higher
01[16] <@Jason> and they actually resemble "communities"
01[16] <@Jason> there's a little food chain, a web of interrrelatedness
01[16] <@Jason> and as we learned earlier, some bacteria can move around
01[16] <@Jason> some can be predators
01[16] <@Jason> and all this has an ongoing effect not only on the poor phytoplankton (lol) that gets eaten up, but on the chemistry of our tanks as well
01[16] <@Jason> these communities can exist not only in fixed locations like sand or live rock, but can be suspended as well
01[16] <@Jason> in nature, the little bits of detritus that we try to physically polish out are called "marine snow"
01[16] <@Jason> these are little microcommunities of decaying organic material, phytoplankton, bacteria, secretions from other animals, etc.
01[16] <@Jason> when it accumulates, it's the equivalent of food accumulating
01[16] <@Jason> motile bacteria are capable of moving along gradients, "sniffing" out the food
01[16] <@Jason> and once found, return to their actively growing states
01[16] <@Jason> i mentioned that there can be an effect on chemistry from these little communities
01[16] <@Jason> not just nitrates, the end product of the N-cycle, but also dissolved organic material
01[16] <@Jason> in reefing they can be referred to as "DOC"s, DOM"s, dissolved organic compounds
01[16] <@Jason> it's what makes your water yellow
01[16] <@Jason> it's basically the leftovers from sloppy eating bacteria
01[16] <@Jason> it's one of the things that are directly observable from bacterial activity
01[16] <@Jason> i mentioned bacteria can be predators
01[16] <@Jason> some are capable of sniffing out live phytoplankton, sidling up to them, and secreting enzymes which punch holes in their cell walls, splitting them open.
01[16] <@Jason> inside, is cellular cytoplasm
01[16] <@Jason> basically, "DOC/DOM"
01[16] <@Jason> the bacteria benefit from the temporary localized increase in concentration of nutrients
01[16] <@Jason> eat up while the gettin's good
01[16] <@Jason> but since it's in water, a lot of it gets away
01[16] <@Jason> so, detritus, marine snow, accumulating not only can become the much-feared "nitrate-factory", but also give you a spike in DOCs
01[16] <@Jason> now, after explaining stuff like this, my hope is that students will look at their tanks a little differntly
01[16] <@Jason> my intention isn't to tell you whether deep sand bed is better than bare-bottom
01[16] <@Jason> or whether a denitrification coil is better than a remote DSB
01[16] <@Jason> because i belive that manyu differnt approaches can be used successfully
01[16] <@Jason> many different
01[16] <@Jason> but really, i hope to help people evaluate their own systems and design based on their own needs and goals
01[16] <@Jason> and circumstances
01[16] <@Jason> so John asked about a sulfur reactor with the shallow sandbed
01[16] <@Jason> now that we've seen how quickly bacteria can "react", and thus change our systems
01[16] <@Jason> and the rest of our conversation about sandbeds, leading to a new idea about denitrification capacity
01[16] <@Jason> my thoughts in answering his question are:
01[16] <@Jason> a) is the nitrate such a problem that one needs the extra apparatus?
01[16] <@Jason> because
01[16] <@Jason> if it isn't
01[16] <@Jason> then the added layer of complication that an extra apparatus adds
01[16] <@Jason> might prove to be detrimental in the event of failure, depletion, any number of reasons
01[16] <@Jason> don't get me wrong
01[16] <@Jason> i like reef gadgets jsut as much as anyone else
01[16] <@Jason> but if it adds complexity to the system then i'm wary
01[16] <@Jason> and if nitrates really WERE a problem
01[16] <@Jason> is there something more along the lines of fine-tuning that could be done?
01[16] <@Jason> because manipulating bacterial populations can have wide-ranging effects
01[16] <@Jason> introducing something that encourages growth or population spikes can effect things both up and down the food chain.
01[16] <@Jason> and chemistry as well
01[16] <@Jason> another example of chemical influence is that a bacterial bloom large enough could exaggerate the diurnal pH swing most tanks and natural reefs encounter over 24 hours
01[16] <@Jason> more bacteria respiring = more CO2
01[16] <@Jason> and CO2 is a direct determinant of pH
01[16] <@Jason> it would take a good sized bloom for this to happen
01[16] <@Jason> but it ties in to the ideas we've spoken about, some of the basic things covered in the textbook reading
01[16] <@Jason> growth curves, metabolism, evergy sources
[16] <John> c02 going up= ph going down?
01[16] <@Jason> yes
[16] <John> thx
01[16] <@Jason> it's typical for pH to fluctuate over 24 hrs
01[16] <@Jason> during the day, photosynthesis consumes CO2, driving pH up
01[16] <@Jason> at night that CO2 consumption slows, and plain old respiration takes over
01[16] <@Jason> generating CO2
01[16] <@Jason> so even on a natural reef pH swings are evident from these processes
01[16] <@Jason> not huge
01[16] <@Jason> but there
01[16] <@Jason> it can be exaggerrated in our tanks because of the closed system
01[16] <@Jason> and some see big swings
01[16] <@Jason> so after talkking about how fast bacteria can grow, geomtrically
01[16] <@Jason> and that growing = metabolism
01[16] <@Jason> metabolism = CO2
01[16] <@Jason> a bacterial bloom overnight can have some unexpected impact
01[16] <@Jason> overdose that phytoplankton
01[16] <@Jason> next day things don't look so good
01[16] <@Jason> normally, check nitrates, right?
01[16] <@Jason> maybe ammonia
01[16] <@Jason> but pH might be out of wack as well
01[16] <@Jason> does that make sense? are people starting to gain a new appreciation for microbiology in our tanks?
[16] <Bob> yes
[16] <John> yep
[16] <olaf> yep
[16] <Fishie> yes
[16] <James> jes
[16] <James> yes!
01[16] <@Jason> i'm glad to hear that. as a microbiologist, obviously i think it's important
01[16] <@Jason> and i'm sure chemists get all caught up in the chemistry
01[16] <@Jason> zoologists are all about polyps and fish
01[16] <@Jason> it's all important, really
[16] <olaf> its all linked
01[16] <@Jason> yep - and knowing each one a little better is good in total
01[16] <@Jason> so this is just a part
01[16] <@Jason> it amazes me how complicated it can be - but how simply it can be done as well
01[16] <@Jason> so many methods work
[16] <mchia> Testing if my connection is working.
01[16] <@Jason> it works her, can you see this?
01[16] <@Jason> here
[16] <John> mchia your good here
[16] <John> so how do u feel about dsb over still water ?
[16] <John> with the gap below?
01[16] <@Jason> oh, a plenum
[16] <olaf> still water?
[16] <John> yes
02[16] * mchia ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: mchia)
[16] <Fishie> plenum
01[16] <@Jason> uhoh
[16] <olaf> water movement is as important as lighting
03[16] * mchia ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
01[16] <@Jason> well, the point of the plenum is to create an oxygen-deprived environment to encourage denitrification
[16] <John> is it worth theeffort?
01[16] <@Jason> and as we've seen, oxygen deprivation can occur rapidly as one goes down
[16] <John> the effort
01[16] <@Jason> in the sandbed
[16] <John> to install to begin with
01[16] <@Jason> now, all respect to Jaubert, because i belive his plenum was pioneered before the oxygen studies i mentioned were done
[16] <John> do u like ple?
01[16] <@Jason> i don't think it's necessary
01[16] <@Jason> and it can be risky
01[16] <@Jason> just my opinion
[16] <Fishie> very risky
01[16] <@Jason> risk/benfit not good
[16] <John> fishie voice of experince?
[16] <Fishie> just studied up on it
[16] <Fishie> GARF uses a plenum. If it leaks you are SOL!
01[16] <@Jason> because i think you don't need to have such an elaborate setup for denitrification, that's all
[16] <Fishie> the tank will CRASH with a very large BANG!
[16] <John> garf?
01[16] <@Jason> yeah
[16] <olaf> here is one of my brackish water aquariums with a semi-plenum filter bed http://www.arofanatics.com/members/olaf ... bers/olaf/
01[16] <@Jason> don't get me wrong
[16] <Fishie> garf.com
01[16] <@Jason> one major take home message
01[16] <@Jason> MAJOR
[16] <John> thx
01[16] <@Jason> is that msot common approaches work if done correctly and ptroperly maintained
01[16] <@Jason> most
01[16] <@Jason> properly
01[16] <@Jason> ugh
01[16] <@Jason> i've seen pics of someone's reverse-undergrtavel filter/plenum with corals in a tank 14 years old, never broken down
01[16] <@Jason> but obviously the owner has quite a feel for his system
01[16] <@Jason> understands the implications
01[16] <@Jason> and acts accordingly
[16] <John> do you like undergravel filters?
01[16] <@Jason> but he started it way abck when such things were the rage, made it work for a reef, and never looked back
01[16] <@Jason> no
01[16] <@Jason> not for me
[16] <John> np just a ?
[16] <olaf> I usually use a sump at least a third the size of the aquarium for saltwater.
01[16] <@Jason> just demonstrating how many different approaches can be successful
01[16] <@Jason> to show that if you understand things like chemistry, have a feel for the microbiology, and husbandry of the animals, their input/output, the interrelatedness
[16] <John> 1 with sump - 1 without
01[16] <@Jason> then you can make all sorts of things work
01[16] <@Jason> no real "right" or "wrong", very broadly speaking, regarding common methods
01[16] <@Jason> of filtration, setup, etc.
[16] <John> no sump 4yr old 1 with 2
[16] <walla2butterfly> so I understand that the oxygen is used up rather quickly but what about the need for anaerobic creaters
[16] <walla2butterfly> so I guess that is my way of saying I am still out on the DSB
[16] <olaf> if it is what you want then do it
01[16] <@Jason> since most of these studies are of natural systems, instead os aquaria
[16] <Fishie> Just because I missed the beginning; DSB= 5"-6"?
01[16] <@Jason> generally
01[16] <@Jason> i'd say it also depends on the tank
01[17] <@Jason> a 4" in a 10 gallon nano with low flow might have the same oxygenation as a bigger tank with more flow
01[17] <@Jason> for the same depth
01[17] <@Jason> anyhow, i was going to say that we're extrapolating a bit from the science literature
01[17] <@Jason> but have to since the same experiments are lacking in the hobby
[17] <Bob> If anaerobic occurs near the surface what's the purpose of a deeper sand bed?
01[17] <@Jason> but i would say that deeper = more denitrification
01[17] <@Jason> but shallow does not = NO denitrification
01[17] <@Jason> so a DSB would theoretically have greater capacity
01[17] <@Jason> so i wouldn't call it pointless
[17] <walla2butterfly> got it
[17] <olaf> 02 inhibits or kills anaerobic bacteria
01[17] <@Jason> but really just depends on one's needs
[17] <Fishie> Don't you have to consider the live rock
01[17] <@Jason> of course - our conversation got comparmentalized because of examples i used earlier
[17] <Fishie> there are lots of denitrificating bacteria in LR
01[17] <@Jason> befoer you got on
[17] <olaf> LR is porous so not as much as a sand bed
01[17] <@Jason> LR is a massive determinant for denitrification as well
[17] <Fishie> just the point. all those little holes are home for bacteria
[17] <mchia> Back to your initial scenario of setting up the beautiful live rocks, how do you actually cycle the tank?
[17] <mchia> I don't quite understand what you mean when you use the term soft cycle.
[17] <walla2butterfly> ya what abuot the initial scenario
[17] <olaf> less dead matter less of a spike
01[17] <@Jason> oh, for this particualr setup, because i didn't want ANY die-off, i did large watre changes based on my ammonia readings
[17] <mchia> Thanks.
01[17] <@Jason> i saw .08 after 24 hrs
[17] <John> as in 10% 50% how offen?
[17] <walla2butterfly> so you limited the die off was your way of cycleing ?
01[17] <@Jason> i did 75% water changes for the first 3 days, each day after initial setup i had ammonia present
01[17] <@Jason> after day 4 there was none
01[17] <@Jason> never saw any again
01[17] <@Jason> nitrates went up to 1ppm
[17] <mchia> So did all of the critters survive?
01[17] <@Jason> yes
01[17] <@Jason> even the coral, i wass happiest about that
01[17] <@Jason> and the msoit sensitive, i would imagine
01[17] <@Jason> most
[17] <mchia> Wow!
[17] <walla2butterfly> WOW
01[17] <@Jason> i'll post a thread in our forum, i have some pics
[17] <walla2butterfly> and your filter system was
01[17] <@Jason> live rock, skimmer
01[17] <@Jason> 1-1.5 inch sandbed
01[17] <@Jason> 6 gallon nano
[17] <olaf> what size aquarium?
[17] <olaf> ah
[17] <walla2butterfly> well it has been interesting today
01[17] <@Jason> i hope so!
[17] <olaf> the setups I did were a 150 and a 180 at the same time
[17] <olaf> actually got too much live rock!
01[17] <@Jason> everybody make sure you get in touch with wade, i'll contact him as well, so that everyone can get onto the forum
[17] <John> same time - same station next week?
01[17] <@Jason> we can talk all we want there!
01[17] <@Jason> yep!
[17] <walla2butterfly> so I believe I read something about transcripts of this will be available
[17] <John> cool
[17] <Fishie> Jason, can I access the beginning of this chat?
[17] <walla2butterfly> and do we really have to pay for this site after 30days
[17] <olaf> the forum where some of us posted already?
[17] <@wade> If you cannot reach the forum, email me your REEFS.ORG user name (no password) - [email protected]
[17] <@wade> no walla
[17] <olaf> ah
[17] <@wade> you can use the mIRC program forever for free
01[17] <@Jason> i'm going to review the "log chat" function to make sure transcripts are available. i'll try to get them to everyone as soon as possible
01[17] <@Jason> i belive i checked the right boxes upon beginning this chat
01[17] <@Jason> jsut need to figure out how to retrieve them
Session Close: Sat Jan 12 17:13:37 2008
Session Start: Sat Jan 12 17:13:37 2008
Session Ident: #micro08
02[17] * Disconnected
02[17] * Attempting to rejoin channel #micro08
03[17] * Rejoined channel #micro08
03[17] * Topic is 'Welcome to MACO - Reef Microbiology 2008'
03[17] * Set by wade on Wed Dec 31 19:00:01
02[17] * Bob ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: )
[17] <mchia> For the convenience of everyone, is it possible to email us when the transcripts of the lectures have been posted?
01[17] <Jason> yes
01[17] <Jason> i found the logs
01[17] <Jason> retrieved them
01[17] <Jason> i'll have them posted by monday
[17] <@wade> i've responded to all emails recieve walla
[17] <@wade> [email protected] you sending to?
[17] <@wade> excellent, thanks Jason
[17] <walla2butterfly> yes
[17] <walla2butterfly> the first one came back and I reemailed this morning before this
01[17] <Jason> gonna run guys - see you on the forum. we can talk all we want there.
[17] <olaf> have a good rest of the weekend! laters everyone
[17] <Fishie> bye
[17] <James> Thank you, Jason
02[17] * Fishie ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: )
02[17] * olaf ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: )
[17] <walla2butterfly> this is my reef sign in name
01[17] <Jason> welcome!
[17] <@wade> ok, I can sign you up now
[17] <walla2butterfly> when will new material be posted?
[17] <walla2butterfly> thanks
[17] <walla2butterfly> bye everyone
[17] <@wade> Ok, you can access the forum now walla
02[17] * walla2butterfly ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: )
[17] <mchia> Bye everyone!
01[17] <Jason> bye
01[17] <Jason> !
03[17] * walla2butterfly ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
[17] <walla2butterfly> thanks wade it worked !
[17] <@wade>
03[17] * walla2butterfly ([email protected]) has left #micro08
Session Close: Sat Jan 12 17:24:28 2008
01[13] <Jason> hey guys
[13] <cycolac> i usually check once a week to make sure my estimates are still in line.
01[13] <Jason> 5 minutes!
[13] <John> weekly here also
01[13] <Jason> i hope more people show up
[13] <John> hi jason
01[13] <Jason> anybody here post in the forum?
[13] <John> not i
[13] <cycolac> not in reefs.org.
01[13] <Jason> ok
01[13] <Jason> just checking
01[13] <Jason> did you guys see the reef micro forum on reefs.org and my posting there?
[13] <cycolac> no. how can i get to it?
01[13] <Jason> there's a link on the MACO site, under our class section
01[13] <Jason> we have our own forum to discuss stuff related to class
01[13] <Jason> one of my concerns was the skill level of people in both reefing and science
01[13] <Jason> it seems we have some people who have never had a tank yet
01[13] <Jason> and as we can see here already
01[13] <Jason> some who are already pondering sulfer reactors
01[13] <Jason> sulfur
[13] <cycolac> i cliked on it, logged into reefs.org, but it says the forum does not exist.
[13] <John> hehehe
01[13] <Jason> ok, contact wade about getting rights
[13] <walla2butterfly> Yea I had the same problem sent and email but it came back to me
01[13] <Jason> really.
01[13] <Jason> ok
[13] <walla2butterfly> so I sent another email but still waiting
[13] <John> do i need it now???
01[13] <Jason> i didn''t post anything there that was imperative for class today
[13] <John> ok
01[13] <Jason> simply an opportunity for people to introduce themselves
01[13] <Jason> let me know their background
01[13] <Jason> i want to make sure EVERYONE gets something from this class
01[14] <Jason> hm. 2PM, 5 logged on including instructor. from what i hear we have over 15 people in the class
[14] <mchia> You need to send Wade your forum user ID.
[14] <mchia> to get access to the forum.
01[14] <Jason> don't worry
01[14] <Jason> there's nothing but the welcome thread there right now
[14] <walla2butterfly> I sent it but the email came back for some reason sent another waiting
01[14] <Jason> only 4 or 5 people posted
01[14] <Jason> what address are you sending to? are you using your own email system or MACOs?
[14] <walla2butterfly> mine
01[14] <Jason> are you sending to "[email protected]"?
[14] <walla2butterfly> yes
01[14] <Jason> jeez
[14] <walla2butterfly> The second one I sent was this morn so hopefully it was just a fluck on the first one coming back
01[14] <Jason> fingers crossed
01[14] <Jason> but again, it's not crucial for today
01[14] <Jason> but it is a nice way to discuss things as peopel think about them
[14] <cycolac> i got two sent to that same address rejected
[14] <walla2butterfly> yea as things pop in your head
01[14] <Jason> exactly
01[14] <Jason> also lets you guys discuss things with each other
01[14] <Jason> asside from the chat session
[14] <walla2butterfly> kind of like passing notes in class LOL
03[14] * Bob ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
01[14] <Jason> just talking - even better
01[14] <Jason> one person posted in the forum that the reading was incomprehensible
01[14] <Jason> i just want to let people know that it's ok if you don't absorb all of it right away
01[14] <Jason> i basically want people to be able to talk the same language
[14] <walla2butterfly> the lecture was okay but struggled a little with the article. Figured it would just be time before it all fell into place
01[14] <Jason> i'm basically providing a reference for later discussions
01[14] <Jason> so we can talk using established definitions
01[14] <Jason> sometimes forum discussions get bogged down in misunderstandings
[14] <walla2butterfly> did wake up the brain. Was early 90' when I last took bio classes
01[14] <Jason> that's ok
01[14] <Jason> it's also obviously a little heavy early on
01[14] <Jason> in order to get across a little crash course in the basics
[14] <John> glad to hear that
[14] <walla2butterfly> so words were familar but lost to the brains file system as for meaning
01[14] <Jason> another reason was that i wasn't sure of the skill level of the audience
01[14] <Jason> since reefing is a biological hobby
01[14] <Jason> some may have some either formal or self education in some of the stuff
[14] <walla2butterfly> I looked at the lecture as getting us going but the article was where we were going
01[14] <Jason> and i want there to be something new for those folks as well
01[14] <Jason> yeah, that article was neat
[14] <cycolac> to which article are you all referring?
01[14] <Jason> there's a lot in there that is relevant to our systems
[14] <Bob> This type of network class is new to me. Can you present your expectations?
[14] <walla2butterfly> well I lost power for 30 hrs, lost some LS and felling all guilty and up pop this class
01[14] <Jason> Bob: There isn't any testing or assignments, so my expectations are for people to advance their knowledge of the workings and role of bacteria in their aquaria
[14] <walla2butterfly> that is "feeling"
01[14] <Jason> cycolac: Microbial Structuring of Marine Ecosystems
[14] <walla2butterfly> so why are others taking this course
[14] <cycolac> jason: where is that article found?
[14] <John> trying to get better at it - gets less expense if u don't screw up as offen
01[14] <Jason> i posted it on the MACO site under our class section. you can download the pdf from there
[14] <mchia> I had a recent battle with cyanobacteria & hope that this course will be of some help.
01[14] <Jason> i think it can help
01[14] <Jason> once you get a "feel" for the microbiological workings in the aquarium
[14] <walla2butterfly> and lots of contradicting info out there
01[14] <Jason> YES
01[14] <Jason> so i presume that for the people present
01[14] <Jason> we understand that bacteria play a crucial role in our aquariums
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[14] <Bob> I often fight rising levels of nitrates in my tank and I'm experimenting with the use of macro algeas / plants to keep it in balance. I was hoping to get information on the possibilities to accomplish this.
01[14] <Jason> so i don't need to explain why we're even talking about this in the first place
01[14] <Jason> Bob: definitely
[14] <walla2butterfly> ditto
01[14] <Jason> denitrification, or reducing nitrate levels is like the holy grail of reefing
01[14] <Jason> there are a lot of methods
[14] <cycolac> ok. i can't seem to find the "class section" on the maco website. please send me a link.
[14] <mchia> Do I need to refer to the given materials during this session?
[14] <mchia> http://www.aquaristcourses.org/Reef%20M ... f%20micro/
01[14] <Jason> thank you!
[14] <walla2butterfly> I had questions as I read but then would find the answers as I read on
01[14] <Jason> i was going to go over the material in a somewhat linear fashion
[14] <walla2butterfly> go for it
01[14] <Jason> buit not belabor irrelevant points
01[14] <Jason> but
01[14] <Jason> ok
[14] <cycolac> wait a minute...is this reef microbiology or reef chemistry????
01[14] <Jason> reef microbiology
[14] <Bob> I've started three marine tanks to date and all three went through a cyno bateria state. Almost overnight it disappears. Is this a normal bateria cycle?
01[14] <Jason> "normal" varies!
01[14] <Jason> if things settle down and equilibrate then yep
[14] <mchia> Mine doesn't.
[14] <cycolac> d'oh!!! sorry.
01[14] <Jason> no prob
[14] <cycolac> Wade told me it started today...i guess he didn't realize i was signed up for chemsitry. do you know who the instructor is for that one?
01[14] <Jason> isaac hagenbuch
[14] <cycolac> would that be [email protected]?
[14] <olaf> Reef Chem starts monday the 14th
01[14] <Jason> i'm going to start going over relevant points
01[14] <Jason> you're all welcome to assk questions regarding not only facts but implications if you want
01[14] <Jason> Bob makes a good starting point for the relevance of what we're about to learn
01[14] <Jason> "was my cycle normal?"
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01[14] <Jason> i think that because setting up every tank can be different
01[14] <Jason> it can be very helpful to have a feel for what is actually going on
01[14] <Jason> for example
01[14] <Jason> i just recently set up a tank and ordered some BEAUTIFUL live rock from premium aquatics
01[14] <Jason> kaelini, collected earlier in the week from when i ordered
01[14] <Jason> so very, very fresh
01[14] <Jason> my intentions were to have a biotope-style setup and preserve as much life as possible
01[14] <Jason> even hitchikers!
01[14] <Jason> i was curious about what would grow out after a while
01[14] <Jason> so i had it overnighted instead of normal 2-day
01[14] <Jason> and when it came it wass gorgeous
01[14] <Jason> COVERED in life, no bad smell
[14] <walla2butterfly> biotope style: doesnt that mean cycling with LR or something else
01[14] <Jason> now, because of my intentions, i couldn't do the "bucket of death" method
01[14] <Jason> biotope means a captive system representative of an actual natural locale
[14] <walla2butterfly> ty
01[14] <Jason> preserving as much of the chain of organisms as possible
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01[14] <@Jason> nor would it be feasible to do an ammonia spike-type cycle as some do with shrimp
01[14] <@Jason> so in this case, the cycle i chose was diferent from what might be done otherwise
[14] <John> explain
01[14] <@Jason> shrimp?
[14] <John> yes
[14] <olaf> I am unfamilar with this with shrimp thing...
01[14] <@Jason> some add a piece of dead shrimp in order to introduce decaying material to the system to "jump start" the growth of ammonia consuming bacteria
[14] <olaf> o
[14] <John> ok
01[14] <@Jason> similarly, the "bucket of death" type method lets things sit and aggressively die-off, also to generate ammonia and "jump start the cycle
01[14] <@Jason> but ammonia is toxic
01[14] <@Jason> so getting back to my example
01[14] <@Jason> those methods would kill whatever i already had on my live rock
01[14] <@Jason> so this is an example where having a feel for things like bacterial dynamics can be useful
01[14] <@Jason> because setting up one tank isn't always the same as setting up another with different inhabitants
01[14] <@Jason> additionally
01[14] <@Jason> having a feel for the microbiology can also help with other tasks/problems
01[14] <@Jason> the implications of feeding
01[14] <@Jason> dosing phytoplankton, for example
01[14] <@Jason> detritus buildup
01[14] <@Jason> evaluating your filtering for your own tank inhabitants
01[14] <@Jason> and possibly moidifying them or tweaking them
01[14] <@Jason> general life-cycle within the tank
01[14] <@Jason> things die
01[14] <@Jason> throw things off balance
01[14] <@Jason> if you have a feel for microbiology you can know when to react, and when not to overreact
01[14] <@Jason> so i'll start off with the basics that i think are relevant
01[14] <@Jason> the bacteria that we are most concerned with are lithotrophs, which means they get their energy from metabolism of ammonia
01[14] <@Jason> single celled organisms
01[14] <@Jason> they reproduce by fission
01[14] <@Jason> wthey elongate and split in half
01[14] <@Jason> each half IMMEDIATELY starts intitiating reproduction again
01[14] <@Jason> if food sources are available
01[14] <@Jason> which means that the division is geometric
01[14] <@Jason> 1>2>4>8
01[14] <@Jason> so populations can expand as fast as nutrients and mechanical constraints of actual growth allow
01[14] <@Jason> some bacteria are motile
01[14] <@Jason> which means they can move about
01[14] <@Jason> they can move towards food sources, and as we'll see later actually prey on phytoplankton
[14] <mchia> The article said they exhibit swarming behavior to kill them.
01[14] <@Jason> bacteria may directly consume only nitrogen based compounds like ammonia
01[14] <@Jason> (well, the one's we are concerned with)
01[14] <@Jason> or carbon
01[14] <@Jason> but there are ways they can actually go get it from their environment
01[14] <@Jason> break things down
01[14] <@Jason> there are also certain relevant adaptations to the environment
01[14] <@Jason> bacteria can vary depending on oxygen requirtements
01[14] <@Jason> aerobic bacteria require oxygen for metabolism
01[14] <@Jason> anaerobic bacteria actually require that oxygen be absent
01[14] <@Jason> BUT
01[14] <@Jason> there is a middle ground
01[14] <@Jason> called "facultative anaerobes"
01[14] <@Jason> these bacteria can make do in either environment
01[14] <@Jason> this leads us to one of the first common misunderstandings in reefing i'd like to address here
01[14] <@Jason> now, mind you
01[14] <@Jason> we will get into the specifics of the nitrogen cycle in later lectures
01[14] <@Jason> but i'd like to throw some reefing-related bones out there
01[14] <@Jason> so by introduction
01[14] <@Jason> or review for some
01[14] <@Jason> the prevailing idea is that anaerobic conditions are required for denitrification
01[14] <@Jason> but faculatative anaerobes can pplay a role
01[14] <@Jason> there is a great deal of variability in metabolism
01[14] <@Jason> in bacteria
01[14] <@Jason> and from the great variety of habitats
01[14] <@Jason> have come a great variety of coping mechanisms
01[14] <@Jason> and what i jsut mentioned is one of them
01[14] <@Jason> so aside from cyclolac who was in the wrong class
01[14] <@Jason> has everyone here been through the reading?
[14] <John> yes
01[14] <@Jason> or maybe, raise your hand if you weren't?
[14] <mchia> Yes, I have read all the readings.
[14] <olaf> yes
01[14] <@Jason> ok.
01[14] <@Jason> i'm not going to delve too deeply into the basics which may not be relevant to this course
01[14] <@Jason> but i do think the reading of the textbook passages was important in order to provide perrspective
01[14] <@Jason> in terms of the variety of life and coping mechanisms
01[14] <@Jason> structure
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01[14] <@Jason> growth characteristics
01[14] <@Jason> the idea that the growth of bacteria is geometric is important
01[14] <@Jason> because it underlies the dynamics behind a bloom
01[14] <@Jason> that one might get from overfeeding
01[14] <@Jason> or a DEATH IN THE TANK
01[14] <@Jason> oops yelling
[14] <John> or a start up?
01[14] <@Jason> exactly
[14] <olaf> geometric exponitally
01[14] <@Jason> yeah, the idea that if there's a rich source of food, things will grow at max speed
01[14] <@Jason> but that food will get consumed rapidly as well
01[15] <@Jason> better to have incremental changes
01[15] <@Jason> than one big one
01[15] <@Jason> so getting back to my example that i started with earlier
01[15] <@Jason> with my super-fresh live rock
01[15] <@Jason> i didn't want ammonia to spike
01[15] <@Jason> and kill things off
01[15] <@Jason> i actually had a colony of soft coral
01[15] <@Jason> so in that case
01[15] <@Jason> rapid swings would be deadly to that at the very least
01[15] <@Jason> or high ammonia
01[15] <@Jason> so i did what is called a soft cycle
[15] <John> can i ask a question?
01[15] <@Jason> of course
[15] <John> is ammonia always related to your nitrate or nitrite? level
01[15] <@Jason> decaying material breaks down after many degradive steps to ammonia
01[15] <@Jason> ammonia gets oxidized to form nitrite
01[15] <@Jason> then nitrite gets reduced to form nitrate
01[15] <@Jason> nitrate comes from ammonia
02[15] * @wade ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout)
01[15] <@Jason> so the two are connected
[15] <John> so if u have no nitrite - u have no ammonia?
01[15] <@Jason> not necessarily
01[15] <@Jason> lett me explain
[15] <John> ahhh the plot thickens
01[15] <@Jason> if you're starting up a tank
01[15] <@Jason> and you introduce some material, say live rock
01[15] <@Jason> it will typically come with a dusting of detritus
01[15] <@Jason> (dead material)
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01[15] <@Jason> additionally, some little bits of life on the rock may not like your tank
01[15] <@Jason> so it dies
01[15] <@Jason> once this dead material gets broken down, it forms ammonia
01[15] <@Jason> but as i said, ammonia gets broken down over time to nitrite, which gets broken down over still more time to nitrate
01[15] <@Jason> so after a couple of days , you might see your ammonia levels rise
01[15] <@Jason> you have ammonia
[15] <John> so where does the sulfer gas come in at?
01[15] <@Jason> but since it takes time for the ammonia to a) get processed and b) for the bacteria that process ammonia to get up to speed in terms of numbers of organisms
01[15] <@Jason> then you may not have nitrates
[15] <John> and does it make a difference in the difference of the grains of ssand?
01[15] <@Jason> so that is an example of a situation where you may have ammonia but no nitrates
[15] <John> k
01[15] <@Jason> grains of sand!
[15] <John> yes size
01[15] <@Jason> that sounds like you've been doing some reading on denitrification
[15] <John> used fine sand had bad experince
01[15] <@Jason> interesting, how deep wass it?
[15] <John> couse seems better
[15] <John> 3+inches
[15] <John> course
01[15] <@Jason> the finer the sand, the less circulation of water you will have through it
[15] <John> seemed to create sulfer gas
01[15] <@Jason> so a 3" sandbed of fine sand won't have very good circulation
01[15] <@Jason> yes
[15] <olaf> You need things to turn your sand
[15] <John> this was a start up
[15] <John> killed a lot of them in begining
[15] <John> crabs
[15] <olaf> snails
[15] <olaf> worms
[15] <John> them too
[15] <John> no worms
01[15] <@Jason> that sounds terrible
[15] <olaf> too much too quick(?)
[15] <olaf> what was the time frame?
[15] <walla2butterfly> I have lots of fire worms in mine is that good
[15] <John> first bloom was 4 weeks then again at 120 days
01[15] <@Jason> yeah, sand-sifting organisms help
[15] <olaf> it sounds like a Ammonia spike that could have done this not sulfur
[15] <John> long time ago now but would not like to do it again
[15] <walla2butterfly> can you have too many? only see at night so assume it is good
01[15] <@Jason> there was a real gem of a sentence in the longer review, "Microbial structuring.."
01[15] <@Jason> oops, the other one
01[15] <@Jason> "Modern Microbial Seascapes"
01[15] <@Jason> last sentence on page 755
01[15] <@Jason> "Except for the upper few millimeters, most of this enormous sub-seafloor catalytic converter is anaerobic"
[15] <John> patience?
[15] <walla2butterfly>
[15] <olaf> I have one 42-g saltwater with 4"+ of oolite three snails turning it and 5 fish 30lbs live rock very little filtration snad is acting like the filter bed.
[15] <olaf> sand^
01[15] <@Jason> i like it
[15] <John> fine or course?
[15] <John> or both?
[15] <olaf> super fine
01[15] <@Jason> do you have an idea of what your flow is like?
[15] <walla2butterfly> have a sand sifting cucumber as well seems to work
[15] <olaf> XP1 plus a hang-on filter
[15] <olaf> Rena XP1
01[15] <@Jason> been up for a while?
[15] <olaf> rarely change anything in the filters maybe once a quater or half a year
01[15] <@Jason> how old is the tank?
[15] <olaf> going on 3 years
01[15] <@Jason> nice!
01[15] <@Jason> so, anybody struck by that sentence i quoted?
[15] <walla2butterfly> except hate metric but will survive
[15] <John> why do we need deep sand beds?
01[15] <@Jason> lol
[15] <olaf> I do power-wash the sand bed once a month.
[15] <walla2butterfly> ?
[15] <olaf> release of some gases
[15] <olaf> powerhead w/ clear tube
[15] <walla2butterfly> I hear you dont want to do that to a new tank though
[15] <olaf> gases are nitrogen
[15] <walla2butterfly> I use my hands but I will keep that way in mind
01[15] <@Jason> so what i was getting at in that sentence
[15] <walla2butterfly> specially after I found out just how many worms are in there now
[15] <walla2butterfly> attention class
[15] <olaf> the top is aerobic
[15] <John> ? why not 1 inch as opposed to 3 or 4? if its the top few millmeters?
[15] <olaf> and the other is anaerobic respiration
01[15] <@Jason> is that the idea that a really deep sandbed is necessary to create an anaerobic, oxygen-dprived environment for denitrification is overly exaggerated
[15] <walla2butterfly> more area for the anaerobic to take place I assume
01[15] <@Jason> yes
01[15] <@Jason> but it's a common misbelief that it NEEDS to be very deep to have ANY denitrification
01[15] <@Jason> deeper may = more denitrification
01[15] <@Jason> but shallow does not = NO denitrification
01[15] <@Jason> can we take a 10 min break?
[15] <olaf> I have found with a deeper sand bed I have more worms and different kinds
[15] <olaf> k
01[15] <@Jason> i'll expand on this when we gat back
[15] <John> sure
[15] <olaf> k
[15] <John> so when you come back tell me - do you belive that a sulfer reactor and shollow sand would be a good combo?
[15] <John> I will be starting up a new tank later this year
[15] <walla2butterfly> I was wondering if this is the wade that I have been trying to email about not getting on to the forum
[15] <walla2butterfly> what size are you going to start up?
[15] <John> it will be a restart - moving 125 and a 40
[15] <walla2butterfly> cool, I have made a stand for a 125, scared to go with anymore weight in my old house LOL
[15] <walla2butterfly> But decided to redo the floor because once it is set up it isnt moving
[15] <John> 40 has deep bed -125 shallow
[15] <walla2butterfly> will be interesting what we walk away with in this course
[15] <John> ahh this old house rebuild
[15] <John> sounds like fun
[15] <olaf> With all my new start-up I use everything "live". Live sand a mixture of Nature's Ocean Reef Sand and Reef Substrate and Carib Sea Ocean Direct and try to get at least 2.5" to 3.5" deep
[15] <walla2butterfly> My current tank ( 2yr) I used playsand, thought I would add LS later, but it populized itself before I got around to it but the new one I will
[15] <olaf> I use ocean water from Nature's Ocean, Catalina Bay water Company (Petco $12 = 5-gal) and Carib Sea New Ocean water.
[15] <John> did u have aa bloom?
[15] <olaf> I usually try to do the same thing Jason was talking about with the LIVE ROCK
[15] <walla2butterfly> that is cool, the only SW seller in my community is getting out of SW
[15] <walla2butterfly> so it is drive or buy on line
[15] <olaf> I get it flown in from Bali to my Distributors then it sits in his tanks for less then a week before I go and pick it up
[15] <olaf> no bloom's
[15] <olaf> never even see ammonia
[15] <John> thats what i would love to expreince
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[15] <olaf> I also add bacteria and plankton
01[15] <@Jason> olaf: that's awesome
01[15] <@Jason> the fresh oput of bali
01[15] <@Jason> out
[15] <olaf> yep
01[15] <@Jason> i tried doing that with my last tank
01[15] <@Jason> no substitute for the diversity you get
[15] <olaf> how did it turn out
01[15] <@Jason> pretty cool
01[15] <@Jason> quite a bit of coraline variation
01[15] <@Jason> at least 6 or 7 macroalgae
[15] <olaf> I ended up getting a great amount of inverts and corals
01[15] <@Jason> the usual suspects liek halimed, plus some beautiful pink types
01[15] <@Jason> halimeda
01[15] <@Jason> a colony of Alcyonium
[15] <olaf> I got some plate coral
01[15] <@Jason> a small tube anemone
01[15] <@Jason> a cute little red, white and blue nudibranch
[15] <olaf> it first looked like a flower anemone then moved down to the sand
[15] <John> love those guys
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[15] <olaf> and started looking like plate
[15] <olaf> now it is the size of a nickle
[15] <walla2butterfly> do you know how cucumbers reproduce?
01[15] <@Jason> my tube nem won't come out in the light
[15] <olaf> too close?
[15] <olaf> I got some nuds also
01[15] <@Jason> no, even if i turn on a room light after lights-out it just contracts
[15] <olaf> chitons
01[15] <@Jason> stays closed all day
[15] <olaf> when do you feed it?
01[15] <@Jason> rarely - it's tiny
01[15] <@Jason> size of a quarter
[15] <olaf> it must be getting micro-inverts like copopds at night
01[15] <@Jason> lives off the land
[15] <olaf> sweet
01[15] <@Jason> oh, before i get back to what we were talking about
01[15] <@Jason> john asked a question
[15] <olaf> I tried a sulfur reactor one one of my clients aquariums didn't make a difference
01[15] <@Jason> "sulfur reactor + shallow sandbed"?
01[15] <@Jason> are your nitrates a problem?
[15] <John> not now just thinking about after move and new start
[15] <olaf> the sulfur was gone out of the reactor after a month and some of the agregate was disoloved
[15] <olaf> disolved
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01[15] <@Jason> then i'm not sure i would bother
[15] <olaf> I would be very careful
[15] <John> ok
01[15] <@Jason> ok, back to topoic
01[15] <@Jason> topic
[15] <olaf> the bi-product could effect the other organisms
01[15] <@Jason> one of the reasons i gave out actual scientific literature if that very sentence i quoted
01[15] <@Jason> "Except for the upper few millimeters, most of this enormous sub-seafloor catalytic converter is anaerobic"
01[15] <@Jason> for fishie
01[15] <@Jason> it's been known for a while that the oxic/anoxic boundary, or the layer demarcation where oxygen gets depleted, is only a centimeter or so down in most marine substrates
[15] <Fishie> Hi, all. I was waiting for 2:00 to logon. It seems, I've missed quite a bit. It was not mentioned it was 2:00 EST
01[15] <@Jason> oh, but i mentioned it on the forum post and email?
01[15] <@Jason> sorry for the misunderstanding
[15] <Fishie> I'll catch up
[15] <mchia> It was mentioned on the forum, its 2-5pm EST
01[15] <@Jason> i should be able to forward the logs to you
[15] <Fishie> thx
01[15] <@Jason> no prob
01[15] <@Jason> now, what i mentioned is in contradiction to a good deal of hobby literature
01[15] <@Jason> namely, that denitrification can't occur in tanks with shallow sandbeds
01[15] <@Jason> and that the sandbed needs to be very deep in order to accomplish any appreciable denitrification
01[15] <@Jason> but numerous studies in scientific literature point demonstrate that oxygen is gone within MILLIMETERS down
01[15] <@Jason> how is this?
01[15] <@Jason> this gets bcak to what i was saying about having a feel for the microorganisms
01[15] <@Jason> back
01[15] <@Jason> we've already discussed some relevant knowledge
01[15] <@Jason> a) bacteria in aerobic environmnets are likely to be oxygen consuming
01[15] <@Jason> b) as long as there's a food source they grow
01[15] <@Jason> c)growing means more of them, not "bigger"
01[15] <@Jason> so putting all this together
01[15] <@Jason> the oxygen depletion so near the surface can be explained
01[15] <@Jason> by the fact that the growing respiring bacteria near the surface, in the aerobic oxygen-rich layer
01[15] <@Jason> actually use up oxygen at a rapid rate
01[15] <@Jason> and the water gets depleted of oxygen before it gets very far
01[15] <@Jason> now,
01[15] <@Jason> in a hypothetical system where the sand and waterr are completely sterile and devoid of lilfe
01[16] <@Jason> oxygen may actually circulate substantially farther down
01[16] <@Jason> because nothing is consuming it on the way down
01[16] <@Jason> but because the flow is substantially reduced by tight-fitting grains of sand
01[16] <@Jason> and the bacteria colonize the surface of sand grains very densely
01[16] <@Jason> one can start to visualize how this oxygen depletion is occurring at such a shallow level
01[16] <@Jason> does that make sense?
[16] <olaf> Yes
[16] <John> yep
[16] <James> Yes
01[16] <@Jason> cool
[16] <Fishie> got it
01[16] <@Jason> this brings us to another topic
01[16] <@Jason> the idea of microenvironments
01[16] <@Jason> the larger review article, "Microbial Structuring..." goes intno depth about this concept
01[16] <@Jason> and really colors in the details
01[16] <@Jason> helps to visualize the concept, instead of jsut understanding the word
01[16] <@Jason> In normal seawater, open ocean, the concentration of bacteria is roughly 100 per cubic millimeter
01[16] <@Jason> 1000, sorry
01[16] <@Jason> in a milliliter of water, the number approaches 10e6, or 1 million
01[16] <@Jason> but in microcommunities, like the grains of sand, or marine snow, the numbers go much higher
01[16] <@Jason> and they actually resemble "communities"
01[16] <@Jason> there's a little food chain, a web of interrrelatedness
01[16] <@Jason> and as we learned earlier, some bacteria can move around
01[16] <@Jason> some can be predators
01[16] <@Jason> and all this has an ongoing effect not only on the poor phytoplankton (lol) that gets eaten up, but on the chemistry of our tanks as well
01[16] <@Jason> these communities can exist not only in fixed locations like sand or live rock, but can be suspended as well
01[16] <@Jason> in nature, the little bits of detritus that we try to physically polish out are called "marine snow"
01[16] <@Jason> these are little microcommunities of decaying organic material, phytoplankton, bacteria, secretions from other animals, etc.
01[16] <@Jason> when it accumulates, it's the equivalent of food accumulating
01[16] <@Jason> motile bacteria are capable of moving along gradients, "sniffing" out the food
01[16] <@Jason> and once found, return to their actively growing states
01[16] <@Jason> i mentioned that there can be an effect on chemistry from these little communities
01[16] <@Jason> not just nitrates, the end product of the N-cycle, but also dissolved organic material
01[16] <@Jason> in reefing they can be referred to as "DOC"s, DOM"s, dissolved organic compounds
01[16] <@Jason> it's what makes your water yellow
01[16] <@Jason> it's basically the leftovers from sloppy eating bacteria
01[16] <@Jason> it's one of the things that are directly observable from bacterial activity
01[16] <@Jason> i mentioned bacteria can be predators
01[16] <@Jason> some are capable of sniffing out live phytoplankton, sidling up to them, and secreting enzymes which punch holes in their cell walls, splitting them open.
01[16] <@Jason> inside, is cellular cytoplasm
01[16] <@Jason> basically, "DOC/DOM"
01[16] <@Jason> the bacteria benefit from the temporary localized increase in concentration of nutrients
01[16] <@Jason> eat up while the gettin's good
01[16] <@Jason> but since it's in water, a lot of it gets away
01[16] <@Jason> so, detritus, marine snow, accumulating not only can become the much-feared "nitrate-factory", but also give you a spike in DOCs
01[16] <@Jason> now, after explaining stuff like this, my hope is that students will look at their tanks a little differntly
01[16] <@Jason> my intention isn't to tell you whether deep sand bed is better than bare-bottom
01[16] <@Jason> or whether a denitrification coil is better than a remote DSB
01[16] <@Jason> because i belive that manyu differnt approaches can be used successfully
01[16] <@Jason> many different
01[16] <@Jason> but really, i hope to help people evaluate their own systems and design based on their own needs and goals
01[16] <@Jason> and circumstances
01[16] <@Jason> so John asked about a sulfur reactor with the shallow sandbed
01[16] <@Jason> now that we've seen how quickly bacteria can "react", and thus change our systems
01[16] <@Jason> and the rest of our conversation about sandbeds, leading to a new idea about denitrification capacity
01[16] <@Jason> my thoughts in answering his question are:
01[16] <@Jason> a) is the nitrate such a problem that one needs the extra apparatus?
01[16] <@Jason> because
01[16] <@Jason> if it isn't
01[16] <@Jason> then the added layer of complication that an extra apparatus adds
01[16] <@Jason> might prove to be detrimental in the event of failure, depletion, any number of reasons
01[16] <@Jason> don't get me wrong
01[16] <@Jason> i like reef gadgets jsut as much as anyone else
01[16] <@Jason> but if it adds complexity to the system then i'm wary
01[16] <@Jason> and if nitrates really WERE a problem
01[16] <@Jason> is there something more along the lines of fine-tuning that could be done?
01[16] <@Jason> because manipulating bacterial populations can have wide-ranging effects
01[16] <@Jason> introducing something that encourages growth or population spikes can effect things both up and down the food chain.
01[16] <@Jason> and chemistry as well
01[16] <@Jason> another example of chemical influence is that a bacterial bloom large enough could exaggerate the diurnal pH swing most tanks and natural reefs encounter over 24 hours
01[16] <@Jason> more bacteria respiring = more CO2
01[16] <@Jason> and CO2 is a direct determinant of pH
01[16] <@Jason> it would take a good sized bloom for this to happen
01[16] <@Jason> but it ties in to the ideas we've spoken about, some of the basic things covered in the textbook reading
01[16] <@Jason> growth curves, metabolism, evergy sources
[16] <John> c02 going up= ph going down?
01[16] <@Jason> yes
[16] <John> thx
01[16] <@Jason> it's typical for pH to fluctuate over 24 hrs
01[16] <@Jason> during the day, photosynthesis consumes CO2, driving pH up
01[16] <@Jason> at night that CO2 consumption slows, and plain old respiration takes over
01[16] <@Jason> generating CO2
01[16] <@Jason> so even on a natural reef pH swings are evident from these processes
01[16] <@Jason> not huge
01[16] <@Jason> but there
01[16] <@Jason> it can be exaggerrated in our tanks because of the closed system
01[16] <@Jason> and some see big swings
01[16] <@Jason> so after talkking about how fast bacteria can grow, geomtrically
01[16] <@Jason> and that growing = metabolism
01[16] <@Jason> metabolism = CO2
01[16] <@Jason> a bacterial bloom overnight can have some unexpected impact
01[16] <@Jason> overdose that phytoplankton
01[16] <@Jason> next day things don't look so good
01[16] <@Jason> normally, check nitrates, right?
01[16] <@Jason> maybe ammonia
01[16] <@Jason> but pH might be out of wack as well
01[16] <@Jason> does that make sense? are people starting to gain a new appreciation for microbiology in our tanks?
[16] <Bob> yes
[16] <John> yep
[16] <olaf> yep
[16] <Fishie> yes
[16] <James> jes
[16] <James> yes!
01[16] <@Jason> i'm glad to hear that. as a microbiologist, obviously i think it's important
01[16] <@Jason> and i'm sure chemists get all caught up in the chemistry
01[16] <@Jason> zoologists are all about polyps and fish
01[16] <@Jason> it's all important, really
[16] <olaf> its all linked
01[16] <@Jason> yep - and knowing each one a little better is good in total
01[16] <@Jason> so this is just a part
01[16] <@Jason> it amazes me how complicated it can be - but how simply it can be done as well
01[16] <@Jason> so many methods work
[16] <mchia> Testing if my connection is working.
01[16] <@Jason> it works her, can you see this?
01[16] <@Jason> here
[16] <John> mchia your good here
[16] <John> so how do u feel about dsb over still water ?
[16] <John> with the gap below?
01[16] <@Jason> oh, a plenum
[16] <olaf> still water?
[16] <John> yes
02[16] * mchia ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: mchia)
[16] <Fishie> plenum
01[16] <@Jason> uhoh
[16] <olaf> water movement is as important as lighting
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01[16] <@Jason> well, the point of the plenum is to create an oxygen-deprived environment to encourage denitrification
[16] <John> is it worth theeffort?
01[16] <@Jason> and as we've seen, oxygen deprivation can occur rapidly as one goes down
[16] <John> the effort
01[16] <@Jason> in the sandbed
[16] <John> to install to begin with
01[16] <@Jason> now, all respect to Jaubert, because i belive his plenum was pioneered before the oxygen studies i mentioned were done
[16] <John> do u like ple?
01[16] <@Jason> i don't think it's necessary
01[16] <@Jason> and it can be risky
01[16] <@Jason> just my opinion
[16] <Fishie> very risky
01[16] <@Jason> risk/benfit not good
[16] <John> fishie voice of experince?
[16] <Fishie> just studied up on it
[16] <Fishie> GARF uses a plenum. If it leaks you are SOL!
01[16] <@Jason> because i think you don't need to have such an elaborate setup for denitrification, that's all
[16] <Fishie> the tank will CRASH with a very large BANG!
[16] <John> garf?
01[16] <@Jason> yeah
[16] <olaf> here is one of my brackish water aquariums with a semi-plenum filter bed http://www.arofanatics.com/members/olaf ... bers/olaf/
01[16] <@Jason> don't get me wrong
[16] <Fishie> garf.com
01[16] <@Jason> one major take home message
01[16] <@Jason> MAJOR
[16] <John> thx
01[16] <@Jason> is that msot common approaches work if done correctly and ptroperly maintained
01[16] <@Jason> most
01[16] <@Jason> properly
01[16] <@Jason> ugh
01[16] <@Jason> i've seen pics of someone's reverse-undergrtavel filter/plenum with corals in a tank 14 years old, never broken down
01[16] <@Jason> but obviously the owner has quite a feel for his system
01[16] <@Jason> understands the implications
01[16] <@Jason> and acts accordingly
[16] <John> do you like undergravel filters?
01[16] <@Jason> but he started it way abck when such things were the rage, made it work for a reef, and never looked back
01[16] <@Jason> no
01[16] <@Jason> not for me
[16] <John> np just a ?
[16] <olaf> I usually use a sump at least a third the size of the aquarium for saltwater.
01[16] <@Jason> just demonstrating how many different approaches can be successful
01[16] <@Jason> to show that if you understand things like chemistry, have a feel for the microbiology, and husbandry of the animals, their input/output, the interrelatedness
[16] <John> 1 with sump - 1 without
01[16] <@Jason> then you can make all sorts of things work
01[16] <@Jason> no real "right" or "wrong", very broadly speaking, regarding common methods
01[16] <@Jason> of filtration, setup, etc.
[16] <John> no sump 4yr old 1 with 2
[16] <walla2butterfly> so I understand that the oxygen is used up rather quickly but what about the need for anaerobic creaters
[16] <walla2butterfly> so I guess that is my way of saying I am still out on the DSB
[16] <olaf> if it is what you want then do it
01[16] <@Jason> since most of these studies are of natural systems, instead os aquaria
[16] <Fishie> Just because I missed the beginning; DSB= 5"-6"?
01[16] <@Jason> generally
01[16] <@Jason> i'd say it also depends on the tank
01[17] <@Jason> a 4" in a 10 gallon nano with low flow might have the same oxygenation as a bigger tank with more flow
01[17] <@Jason> for the same depth
01[17] <@Jason> anyhow, i was going to say that we're extrapolating a bit from the science literature
01[17] <@Jason> but have to since the same experiments are lacking in the hobby
[17] <Bob> If anaerobic occurs near the surface what's the purpose of a deeper sand bed?
01[17] <@Jason> but i would say that deeper = more denitrification
01[17] <@Jason> but shallow does not = NO denitrification
01[17] <@Jason> so a DSB would theoretically have greater capacity
01[17] <@Jason> so i wouldn't call it pointless
[17] <walla2butterfly> got it
[17] <olaf> 02 inhibits or kills anaerobic bacteria
01[17] <@Jason> but really just depends on one's needs
[17] <Fishie> Don't you have to consider the live rock
01[17] <@Jason> of course - our conversation got comparmentalized because of examples i used earlier
[17] <Fishie> there are lots of denitrificating bacteria in LR
01[17] <@Jason> befoer you got on
[17] <olaf> LR is porous so not as much as a sand bed
01[17] <@Jason> LR is a massive determinant for denitrification as well
[17] <Fishie> just the point. all those little holes are home for bacteria
[17] <mchia> Back to your initial scenario of setting up the beautiful live rocks, how do you actually cycle the tank?
[17] <mchia> I don't quite understand what you mean when you use the term soft cycle.
[17] <walla2butterfly> ya what abuot the initial scenario
[17] <olaf> less dead matter less of a spike
01[17] <@Jason> oh, for this particualr setup, because i didn't want ANY die-off, i did large watre changes based on my ammonia readings
[17] <mchia> Thanks.
01[17] <@Jason> i saw .08 after 24 hrs
[17] <John> as in 10% 50% how offen?
[17] <walla2butterfly> so you limited the die off was your way of cycleing ?
01[17] <@Jason> i did 75% water changes for the first 3 days, each day after initial setup i had ammonia present
01[17] <@Jason> after day 4 there was none
01[17] <@Jason> never saw any again
01[17] <@Jason> nitrates went up to 1ppm
[17] <mchia> So did all of the critters survive?
01[17] <@Jason> yes
01[17] <@Jason> even the coral, i wass happiest about that
01[17] <@Jason> and the msoit sensitive, i would imagine
01[17] <@Jason> most
[17] <mchia> Wow!
[17] <walla2butterfly> WOW
01[17] <@Jason> i'll post a thread in our forum, i have some pics
[17] <walla2butterfly> and your filter system was
01[17] <@Jason> live rock, skimmer
01[17] <@Jason> 1-1.5 inch sandbed
01[17] <@Jason> 6 gallon nano
[17] <olaf> what size aquarium?
[17] <olaf> ah
[17] <walla2butterfly> well it has been interesting today
01[17] <@Jason> i hope so!
[17] <olaf> the setups I did were a 150 and a 180 at the same time
[17] <olaf> actually got too much live rock!
01[17] <@Jason> everybody make sure you get in touch with wade, i'll contact him as well, so that everyone can get onto the forum
[17] <John> same time - same station next week?
01[17] <@Jason> we can talk all we want there!
01[17] <@Jason> yep!
[17] <walla2butterfly> so I believe I read something about transcripts of this will be available
[17] <John> cool
[17] <Fishie> Jason, can I access the beginning of this chat?
[17] <walla2butterfly> and do we really have to pay for this site after 30days
[17] <olaf> the forum where some of us posted already?
[17] <@wade> If you cannot reach the forum, email me your REEFS.ORG user name (no password) - [email protected]
[17] <@wade> no walla
[17] <olaf> ah
[17] <@wade> you can use the mIRC program forever for free
01[17] <@Jason> i'm going to review the "log chat" function to make sure transcripts are available. i'll try to get them to everyone as soon as possible
01[17] <@Jason> i belive i checked the right boxes upon beginning this chat
01[17] <@Jason> jsut need to figure out how to retrieve them
Session Close: Sat Jan 12 17:13:37 2008
Session Start: Sat Jan 12 17:13:37 2008
Session Ident: #micro08
02[17] * Disconnected
02[17] * Attempting to rejoin channel #micro08
03[17] * Rejoined channel #micro08
03[17] * Topic is 'Welcome to MACO - Reef Microbiology 2008'
03[17] * Set by wade on Wed Dec 31 19:00:01
02[17] * Bob ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: )
[17] <mchia> For the convenience of everyone, is it possible to email us when the transcripts of the lectures have been posted?
01[17] <Jason> yes
01[17] <Jason> i found the logs
01[17] <Jason> retrieved them
01[17] <Jason> i'll have them posted by monday
[17] <@wade> i've responded to all emails recieve walla
[17] <@wade> [email protected] you sending to?
[17] <@wade> excellent, thanks Jason
[17] <walla2butterfly> yes
[17] <walla2butterfly> the first one came back and I reemailed this morning before this
01[17] <Jason> gonna run guys - see you on the forum. we can talk all we want there.
[17] <olaf> have a good rest of the weekend! laters everyone
[17] <Fishie> bye
[17] <James> Thank you, Jason
02[17] * Fishie ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: )
02[17] * olaf ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: )
[17] <walla2butterfly> this is my reef sign in name
01[17] <Jason> welcome!
[17] <@wade> ok, I can sign you up now
[17] <walla2butterfly> when will new material be posted?
[17] <walla2butterfly> thanks
[17] <walla2butterfly> bye everyone
[17] <@wade> Ok, you can access the forum now walla
02[17] * walla2butterfly ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: )
[17] <mchia> Bye everyone!
01[17] <Jason> bye
01[17] <Jason> !
03[17] * walla2butterfly ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
[17] <walla2butterfly> thanks wade it worked !
[17] <@wade>
03[17] * walla2butterfly ([email protected]) has left #micro08
Session Close: Sat Jan 12 17:24:28 2008
