Dosing sugar???????

Tonyscoots84

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ive been reading lately and doing some research on diff. methods and i stumble uppon this.... Dosing Sugar... from what ive read its almost the same exact thing as dosing vodka... suppos. the sugar is supposed to feed the bacteria and in return the bacteria absorbs more no3 and no4 correct.. but then u gotta make sure ur skimming good cause of the bacteria die off.... i dunno this sounds wierd to me...

:help:can someone please explain this 2 me and others here..:party: :wink1:
 

ShaunW

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Tonyscoots84 said:
ive been reading lately and doing some research on diff. methods and i stumble uppon this.... Dosing Sugar... from what ive read its almost the same exact thing as dosing vodka... suppos. the sugar is supposed to feed the bacteria and in return the bacteria absorbs more no3 and no4 correct.. but then u gotta make sure ur skimming good cause of the bacteria die off.... i dunno this sounds wierd to me...

:help:can someone please explain this 2 me and others here..:party: :wink1:
This is the what the "experts" believe, :lol2: . Since this is MR and not another forum like RC (where I could get banned for speaking about such things), I am going to speak my mind.

Dosing Vodka is so stupid that I don't even know where to begin! Vodka is for drinking, ethanol kills living creatures :beer: :scratch: . Using it as a carbon source for bacteria is sloppy microbiology and is suggested by people who are uneducated in biology. Corals are sensitive creatures why put toxins into their environment.

Adding sugar is also idiotic.

Once I am finished examining what is in skimmate we will see how much bacteria are actually skimmed out by our skimmers.
 
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marrone

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There was a thread on RC where some one young daughter poured a cup of sugar into tank. Well the tank was cloudy for days, even after quite a bit of water changes, and he lost just about everything.
 

ShaunW

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marrone said:
There was a thread on RC where some one young daughter poured a cup of sugar into tank. Well the tank was cloudy for days, even after quite a bit of water changes, and he lost just about everything.
Of course that would happen :rolleyes: . Gasoline would have been less effective.

Note to self for another thread ;) : Another way to sabotage a reef tank = 1 cup of sugar.
 

aaron23

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well, too much of anything is not good. Dosing 1 cup of sugar? uhhhhh maybe like a teaspoon? go gradually.... I dunno about its effects etc havent done it myself wouldnt try it but hey anythings possible. Who would have ever thought of not using sand in a reef aquarium........ there are many solutions and ways to do things in our reef hobby....not one way is deemed correct.
 

Quang

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Just curious, how would sugar destroy the tank? Does it has something to do with affecting the salinity or other water params or the corals directly?
We get a sweet and salty seafood dish?
 

ShaunW

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aaron23 said:
well, too much of anything is not good. Dosing 1 cup of sugar? uhhhhh maybe like a teaspoon? go gradually.... I dunno about its effects etc havent done it myself wouldnt try it but hey anythings possible. Who would have ever thought of not using sand in a reef aquarium........ there are many solutions and ways to do things in our reef hobby....not one way is deemed correct.
Some things are just not correct!

BB existed before DSB BTW.

It is bull$hit science behind the vodka/sugar dosers theories, not proven, all speculation and innuendos.
 
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ShaunW

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froggiebunbun said:
Just curious, how would sugar destroy the tank? Does it has something to do with affecting the salinity or other water params or the corals directly?
We get a sweet and salty seafood dish?
It is a supercharged nutrient that would cause every microorganism to become metabolically active to an unhealthy extent. Their waste products would affect the pH within the tank causing it to become more acidic. Once the sugar is then fully metabolized the resultant die off from the overgrowth that occured would overwelm the biofiltration of the tank.

While all this is occuring the corals would be stressing out in a massive way, which would probably stimulate a death response in them, which would further overwelm the biofiltration.
 
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marrone

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It may work but the probably needs to be done on a large system and the amount need is probably very small. It's just another way of seeding you filter to get it going and would probably be some thing you would want to do it the beginning. Until you look at the results you really don't know if it works or not. There are a lot of products that we use that are packaged under various names and if we actually read the ingredients we would probably be very surprised at what we put into our tanks.
 

ShaunW

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cali_reef said:
solbby, what do you think about dosing Amino Acid ?
Thats a tough one. Certain aminoacids are important and needed by corals (SPS), they also regulate growth and are the building blocks of metabolism and protein synthesis. I have been studying this at the moment, but the discussion is much bigger than this thread and probably should be in the advanced forum.

But here is my take:

Interactions between zooplankton feeding, photosynthesis and skeletal growth in the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata.
Fanny Houlbr?que, Eric Tambutt?, Denis Allemand and Christine Ferrier-Pag?s


Summary

We investigated the effect of zooplankton feeding on tissue and skeletal growth of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata. Microcolonies were divided into two groups: starved corals (SC), which were not fed during the experiment, and fed corals (FC), which were abundantly fed with Artemia salina nauplii and freshly collected zooplankton. Changes in tissue growth, photosynthesis and calcification rates were measured after 3 and 8 weeks of incubation. Calcification is the deposition of both an organic matrix and a calcium carbonate layer, so we measured the effect of feeding on both these parameters, using incorporation of 14C-aspartic acid and 45Ca, respectively. Aspartic acid is one of the major components of the organic matrix in scleractinian corals. For both sampling times, protein concentrations were twice as high in FC than in SC (0.73 vs 0.42 mg P?1 cm?2 skeleton) and chlorophyll c2 concentrations were 3?4 times higher in fed corals (2.1?0.3 ?g cm?2). Cell specific density (CSD), which corresponds to the number of algal cells inside a host cell, was also significantly higher in FC (1.416?0.028) than in SC (1.316?0.015). Fed corals therefore displayed a higher rate of photosynthesis per unit area (Pgmax= 570?60 nmol O2 cm?2 h?1 and Ik=403?27 ?mol photons m?2 s?1). After 8 weeks, both light and dark calcification rates were twofold greater in FC (3323?508 and 416?58 nmol Ca2+ 2 h?1 g?1 dry skeletal mass) compared to SC (1560?217 and 225?35 nmol Ca2+ 2 h?1 g?1 dry skeletal mass, respectively, under light and dark conditions). Aspartic acid incorporation rates were also significantly higher in FC (10.44?0.69 and 1.36? 0.26%RAV 2 h?1 g?1 dry skeletal mass, where RAV is total radioactivity initially present in the external medium) than in SC (6.51?0.45 and 0.44?0.02%RAV 2 h?1 g?1 dry skeletal mass under dark and light conditions, respectively). Rates of dark aspartic acid incorporation were lower than the rates measured in the light. Our results suggest that the increase in the rates of calcification in fed corals might be induced by a feeding-stimulation of organic matrix synthesis.

Extracted from:
Journal of Experimental Biology 207, 1461-1469 (2004)

Full Article (html)

Full Article (pdf)



Feeding has also been shown to enhance sketetal growth, suggesting that corals allocate a high proportion of the energy brought by food to calcification processes. It is important to note that calcification is also a dual process, involving the secretion of an organic matrix and the deposition of a CaCO3 fraction. The presence of an organic matrix in coral skeletons is widely documented and is considered an essential prerequisite in the formation of a biomineral structure. This matrix potentially plays key roles in various processes such as crystal nucleation and growth, crystal size and orientation and regulation of skeletal formation. Cuif et al (1999) demonstrated that the composition of the matrix was different between symbiotic and asymbiotic corals, and Allemand et al. (1998) suggested that heterotrophy is a source of aspartic acid, once of the major components of the coral matrix.

From another part of the paper.
..... Allemand et al. (1998) also showed that no aspartic acid pool was present inside the coral tissue, suggesting the need for a constant supply from an exogenous source. By using 14C-aspartic acid as a precursor for organic matrix synthesis, we measured a higher incorporation of this amino acid into the organic matrix of fed corals.............
 
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ShaunW

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continued...from another part of the paper.

Feeding might therefore have enhanced the construction of the organic matrix by (i) supplying additional input of energy, espercially for the dark processes. Under high plankton concentrations...........uptake of organic carbon (and hence energy) may be significant and could provide some energy for calcium/proton exchange at night. Alternatively, the larger biomass of fed corals may have provided larger energy stores for dark processes. Thus, feeding might have (ii) directly provided the necessary 'external' amino acids and/or (iii) indirectly increased photosynthesis and therefore the supply of 'autotrophic' amino acids.
 

ShaunW

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So in conclusion from the thoughts above, we have a internally synthesized pool of amino acids created via photosynthesis and secondary metabolism and an amino acid that is naturally limited in coral tissue (no storage) but is also the most abundant within the coral organic matrix.

And this amino acid must be supplied externally. In nature this occurs via active feeding by corals.
 
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ShaunW

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aaron23 said:
Any idea of whats in ZEOvit?
The literal MILLION dollar question :scratch: . Since if I knew for sure (I do have a very good idea actually what's in it :D ) I could also drive a fancy car, have a yacht, and a live in a huge house ;) .
 
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