Mythbusters II

[Psycho graphic]

Jackson suggested more of these threads.

I know I said I did'nt want to beat a dead horse, but maybe many of you did not see my posts in another thread about a tank containing copper to be able to be used for a reef ever.

Again this is a topic, I think opposite of the majority and not once have I got a reply to prove me wrong. I'm not saying I'm right, but yet to be proved wrong. (I'm also talking forums other than MR)

Let's say you have a FO tank and treat it with copper. You then use whatever means to remove the copper, I have always depended on Polyfilters, carbon and WC's. The theory is the copper is stored in the silocone and can never be used again as the copper will leach out, killing your inhabitants.

The copper is not a renewable source, if it can leach out of the silicone into the water column, does'nt it make sense at some point it is going to be depleted eventually?

I have a reef setup now in a 30G tank that was treated with copper a little over a year ago. After I tested the copper and got it down to 0. I replaced the polyfilters and ran it for a month, 3 months after that I went from FO to a reef with absolutley no ill affects.

This also is not the first tank I setup as a reef in a tank that had copper in it at one time.

 

[SuRFeR BoY]

my reef setup was a fw setup for a few years and copper was used int he tank.. my tank has been running for over 7 months now and i have not had a problem

 

[marrone]

The Copper doesn't need to be a renewable source, it's been absorbed by the silicone and will eventually be released into the tank over time. Also you don't know exactly how much copper has been absorbed by the silicone but in a lot of the cases you can see the silicone actually turn blue. The same goes if you use rock or sand that has been in a tank with copper, it may at leak the copper back into the tank. Can over time the copper either be taken out completely or rendered to the point where it's harmless, maybe but you're taking a chance that it could slow leak into your system and build up to the point were it can start to kill your corals.

It also doesn't take much copper to kill certain inverts and corals though some inverts, like crabs, can take copper and at higher levels but most can't at even take small amounts. The question is when and how much copper will be leaked back into the tank. Small doses mayn't be enough to kill some corals or inverts while some may die from even the smallest amounts.

I have seen inverts and corals not only placed in tank but in plastic containers that have contained copper at some point and watch them died rather quickly or not open and done badly leading to them dying.

So you're taking a big chance that the copper is going has been completely removed and mayn't leak back into the tank. For the amount of money that you spend on coral you have to ask yourself if it's worth the chance and buy a tank that has had copper in it for cheap.

 

[Psycho graphic]

So by your theory it leaches out forever?

A plastic tub would have a huge surface area to absorb the copper as opposed to the small amount of area the silicone has.

 

[marrone]

So by your theory it leaches out forever?

A plastic tub would have a huge surface area to absorb the copper as opposed to the small amount of area the silicone has.

And how much copper is enough? It doesn't take much copper to either kill coral or hurt them so they either don't open fully or do bad and possible die. Also as the silicone release copper it's not only being absorbed by carbon or ploy filters but now by Live rock and sand, which can also contain it and release it at a later date. You not going to know how much copper is building up in your system until it maybe to late. Remember it's a close system and you have a lot of things that can absorb the copper in the tank and then possible release it at a future time. It maybe a very small level of copper, to the point where you can't measure it, but it maybe having an effect on your tank.

Also I've seen this in fish tanks that copper was used in. The tank were used as hospital tank and container nothing, live rock or sand. At a point they were then used as regular tanks for corals and inverts and some corals died or didn't open when placed in these tanks. Eventually the copper maybe come out of the system, either through water changes, carbon or poly pads but you're still going to most likely have some left and it maybe enough to kill coral or invert or hurt them in your tank.

It's not worth the chance to take just to save some money on a tank in the short term for something that could impact the tank in the long term.

 

[Psycho graphic]

I'm not arguing, but it sounds like you did not read all of my original post or I did'nt word it properly.
I said to remove the copper before using the tank. I also said to continue to use the "removing agents" for a period after the copper readings are at "0". This has nothing to do with LR, that was never put into the equation.
The purpose of this thread is can a tank be used ever as a reef tank. It also had nothing to do with short term use. It has everything to do with can it EVER be used for this purpose.

Sorry if either I did'nt word it correctly or you did'nt understand my point.

To just say corals died, gives no information on how can copper be present in a tank to the point that it can never be used for a reef.

 

[marrone]

I'm not arguing, but it sounds like you did not read all of my original post or I did'nt word it properly.
I said to remove the copper before using the tank. I also said to continue to use the "removing agents" for a period after the copper readings are at "0". This has nothing to do with LR, that was never put into the equation.
The purpose of this thread is can a tank be used ever as a reef tank. It also had nothing to do with short term use. It has everything to do with can it EVER be used for this purpose.

Sorry if either I did'nt word it correctly or you did'nt understand my point.

To just say corals died, gives no information on how can copper be present in a tank to the point that it can never be used for a reef.

You are never going to know if you have fully removed all the copper from the tank, even with the best test kits available. Also since the silicone may have absorbed it you mayn't get a reading of any copper until it starts to release it into the tank. Also if you're going to make it into a reef tank you're going to have Live rock and possible sand too. Both of these things can absorb copper once it becomes free floating into the tank. And since it's a close system it is a long term thing that mayn't show any effects until later.

 

[Psycho graphic]

Also since the silicone may have absorbed it you mayn't get a reading of any copper until it starts to release it into the tank.

If you treat the tank I think we are in agreement that at this time it will absorb into the silicone, correct?

You then remove it using whatever method, by your statement, how and why would it all of a sudden start releasing it again?

 

[marrone]

If you treat the tank I think we are in agreement that at this time it will absorb into the silicone, correct?

You then remove it using whatever method, by your statement, how and why would it all of a sudden start releasing it again?

I think it's safe to say that the silicone probably would absorb the copper, actually the silicone would probably turn blue from the copper.

The thing is unless you remover the silicone you can't be sure that all the copper is gone from the tank. The silicone will have retained some of the copper, which it can release over time. So even if you use poly pads, carbon,sea gel or curb-sol or any other copper remover you'll never know if you have it all. The copper will be release from the silicone into the water and because it's a closed system can either built up over time or be absorb by rock or sand.

 

[SuRFeR BoY]

i test my water and have zero copper

 

[marrone]

i test my water and have zero copper

That's fine but unless you're using a professional kit you're not going to know if it's really is zero. Even the Lamotte copper kit mayn't show copper when in fact there maybe some present. So you maybe getting a small release of copper into the tank, which can build up over time, and your test kit mayn't pick it up. Remember your don't need a lot of copper to kill or hurt a coral or invert.

 

[Psycho graphic]

Ok you are missing the point I think. The theory is and what everyone is sayng, you can NEVER use a tank for a reef if it has had copper in it.

I say this is false (my opinion).

My point is, seeing as it is not a reneweable source at one point it has to thoroughly leach out of the silicone and into the water where it can be removed.

You have not said anything to prove me wrong as no one else has ever been able to do so either. I agree with a lot of what you say, but it's not the point of this thread.

Don't take this as me bashing you, I'm not.

I just want someone to prove me wrong, but I don't think it's possible. You are just saying the silicone will release the copper, I agree, but for how long can it do this if it is not renewed. If it leaches out of the silicone at a rate of 2% a week (just for arguments sake) this means at some point there will be no copper left in the silicone to leach out.

Also, I have NEVER had my silicone turn blue from using copper. And I go back to the days when UG's were the norm and there was no internet, you had to learn from the LFS and magazines. Back then you used copper, not hypo.

 

[Psycho graphic]

That's fine but unless you're using a professional kit you're not going to know if it's really is zero. Even the Lamotte copper kit mayn't show copper when in fact there maybe some present. So you maybe getting a small release of copper into the tank, which can build up over time, and your test kit mayn't pick it up. Remember your don't need a lot of copper to kill or hurt a coral or invert.

I think this only applies if you never do a waterchange.

 

[marrone]

Ok you are missing the point I think. The theory is and what everyone is sayng, you can NEVER use a tank for a reef if it has had copper in it.

I say this is false (my opinion).

My point is, seeing as it is not a reneweable source at one point it has to thoroughly leach out of the silicone and into the water where it can be removed.

You have not said anything to prove me wrong as no one else has ever been able to do so either. I agree with a lot of what you say, but it's not the point of this thread.

Don't take this as me bashing you, I'm not.

I just want someone to prove me wrong, but I don't think it's possible. You are just saying the silicone will release the copper, I agree, but for how long can it do this if it is not renewed. If it leaches out of the silicone at a rate of 2% a week (just for arguments sake) this means at some point there will be no copper left in the silicone to leach out.

Also, I have NEVER had my silicone turn blue from using copper. And I go back to the days when UG's were the norm and there was no internet, you had to learn from the LFS and magazines. Back then you used copper, not hypo.

If you go by your premise and wait long enough eventually the copper will come out of the system. But how long is that? It can be release over months or even years, specially if a lot of copper has been used in the tank over the years. You have no real idea who much copper the silicone has absorbed over time. Also if you have rock and sand in the tank they're going to absorb it and eventually they can release it over time too. You can never be sure that the tank will be copper free and even the smallest amount could be a problem. The question is how long do you plan on waiting before it's safe that nothing is going to happen to your corals and is it worth taking a chance that something will happen, and it has happen so there is differently a risk there.



Nobody can prove you wrong because you don't want to listen. You don't see that there is a chance that copper can be release into the tank and cause problems. You don't want to see that this has happen to people before and can happen again. You whole premise is that given enough time the copper will eventually come out of the system. The problem with that is how long. If we say forever than that's a possibility but we're talking about things that can die from the copper very quickly and forever isn't an opinion.

Copper will turn silicone blue.

 

[Psycho graphic]

I am listening, Obviously you don't get my point.

Mods please close this.

 

[bad coffee]

You can clean the copper out of a tank. My first tank I bought used to set up as a reef tank. It was an older tank. LOTS of copper meds used in the tank. I was wondering if I could clean it out so I sent a PM to Dr Shimek. His response stated you wash the tank out with a really strong acid (I think he said hydrochloric) and do 10 RO water rinses. Then repeat 10 or so times it will get the copper out of the tank.

For cost reasons they only do it on large display tanks. (public aquariums.)


Psycho,

Mike agreed with your point stating that it does eventually come out. But that's not the real issue with copper in a used tank. It's how much can leach out and what concentration does it take to kill something that are the real reasons we don't tend to use contaminated tanks.

If I knew the history of the tank and copper was only used a few times, and the tank was free and it was all starfire and the perfect dimensions for what I wanted, then I MIGHT use it for a reef. But I would ALWAYS 100% of the time use a polypad. Because you're right. Eventually it will completely leach out. But I'd never know when it's all out.

B