Chicken or the Egg. What was first in reef?

[Davidl919]

I started a thread similar to this in advanced reefing at R. central. Got a few replies but nothing on a scientific or a somewhat more theoretical approach.
I wanted to know from studies or from experience what one might think would be the grand scheme of things as far as life in the reef.
Why? I wanted to take this approach towards my own tank. I already know that the first start would be bacteria and assume it goes to pods but where do we go from there? and what approach should be used in a situation like mine where I want to start things off slowly and in a more natural cycle.

 

[House of Laughter]

David,

I am sure there are thousands of steps to making the reef successful - and I am sure it doesn't go from bacteria to pods - likely there are more steps in between.

An interesting thought/study for sure. Question is,when is a reef fully mature? that is important to define as an endpoint.

Would love to hear somemore thoughts on this.

House

 

[flipit13]

i want to know more on this also cause i have a freind with a reef and its been running 20+ years. i have also read about a reef running for older than me..... when is it mature and when does it just say enough is enough.. i am a noob when it comes to reef but fish i have had since welll dont want to go there lol.... how long can a home reef actually last and survive? what a great topic honestly caues everything in life has a time table.... really makes tou think

rick

 

[masterswimmer]

Can't forget the single celled organisms, amoeba's.

As far as maturing, I've left my tank unattended, unfed for two weeks at a time. My reef is only seven years old, but it is basically a self sustaining biorectangle (as opposed to a biosphere ). That's always been one of my goals, to be able to have everything in the tank sustain itself.

FYI, the glass didn't look clean, but that is probably one of the reasons the tank is for a short period of time, a self sustaining system.

The worlds reefs are a little more mature than mine :scratchch

swimmer

 

[sjsoto]

david i dont quite understand your question.... can someone pls break it down to me?

 

[Simon Garratt]

It might be worth doing some searches on biological colonisation of substrates and calcium carbonate substrates in tropical locations.

this will give you a start point from chemical deposition to bacterial and eventually to micro and macrofauna colonisation patturns/orders.

Regards

simon.

 

[Davidl919]

Thanks to saltwatercritters for your replies. Yeah Jim I missed a very necessary component in the fauna / algae stage which I would think is a factor before pods. Master, a self sustaining tank is'nt fools gold i'm pretty sure it's being done, your own 2 week example is testament to that. I hope i can attain that someday.

Thank You Simon. I can read on for days as far as the research that has been conducted on this subject or related to it, but I wanted a more relative approach towards it, like one that can be applied towards a home reef.

Example I looked everywhere to see where in the evolution, the organisms responsible for sponge growth would be introduced and could not find the answer. My own example is where I killed off my rock by no moisture and contained for over 6 months the rock was also scrubbed with a brush in a bathtub and water over 140f was ran on it for a few hours. I recured it for over a 2 month period and I obviously had no test equiptment to see bacteria but the first sign of visual life was a Sponge and fauna hair algae, which amazed me.

Sjsoto it's basically a thread asking people's educated opinions and facts on the principle of evolution related to the reef that can be applied at home.

 

[ShaunW]

I personally don't think any significant evolution (by the strict scientific definition) occurs in homegrown reefs, since species diversity cannot be maintained over time, nor can large individual species populations.

For example, how many copies of the same coral or invert or fish exist within an aquarium? Answer: not many or not nearly enough in order to maintain a healthy population of even one species. Many individuals are required to keep the gene pool strong, in order to passage DNA that is strong and undamaged (not mutated negatively).

I know that no one likes to hear this since most aquarists believe that their "reef in a box" is a magical place but the REAL magic occurs in the ocean.

 

[ShaunW]

The chicken or the egg??????

Well to keep the analog, our aquariums are an unfertilized egg, without the potential to ever be the chicken.

 

[ShaunW]

but I wanted a more relative approach towards it, like one that can be applied towards a home reef.

Forget sexual reproduction. So no real evolution. It is all about species maintainence. Therefore, provide the nutrients and water quality to keep whatever species are present initially alive and able to replicate.

Provide as diverse a mixture of foods as possible to provide for as many individual species needs as possible.

Keep the environment as stable as possible for as long as possible to prevent species from dying out.

 

[Davidl919]

Thank you Shawn. I wasn't shooting for reproducing an ocean in my tank, actually I wouldn't even set an aquarium as a goal. A simple tank with little maintanence would be suffice for me :splitspin.

But what I was attempting, was to get an idea of the natural order of the ocean and somewhat follow that cycle as far as introduction Or being that our tanks are infertile by means of insemination.

What I have found so far is the closest we can get to replicating (nowhere near as complex as the ocean) goes from the 1)bacteria level 2+3)algea 2+3) fauna 4)sponge 5) flatworm (Not aefw) 6) pod 7) invertebrate (crabs, shrimps) 8) fish
With a whole lot of stuff mising in between including evolution and I am in no way stating that this is the order I'm sure that i'm mistaken up there somewhere.

Yes reproduction in a tank is impossible/impractical from the cell level and even if possible no one lives over a million years to wait for it to occur naturally in a tank and you would still have to introduce somewhere in there.