Low pH bothers me now.

[Andersen]

Hi there. I´m new to this forum, and used to use a local (danish forum), but now I´m getting rather tired of this problem, so I´ll try seek some good answers or suggestions at your place.

I have a aprox. 480L reef tank at my home, which is suffering from low pH, and it seems like no matter what I do, I can´t get it above 8.0. Some might say, hey pH 8.0 is not bad, and I agree, but pH 8.0 in the evening just before light goes off, will be somewhat 7.7 in the morning, and thats bad to me. And when pH starts to drop _before_ the lights goes off, it tells me something is very wrong.

My tank is driven with an Korallin reactor, where I exchanged the media some weeks ago to ARM aragonite (reactor media). Before that I used what was supplied with the Korallin.

The values in the tank right now is:
Calcium aprox 430 (but I have tried taking it above 500, just to see if it makes and difference. It doesn´t!
Alk (KH) is 11 in the tank and 17 from the reactor.
Phosphate is 0.00
Nitrate is 0
Salt is 1.026
Magnesium is 1400

I have a site where I run some statistic, using an IKS computer to monitor and controle the temperature and pH. http://akvariet.terrabyte.dk/ikslog/v2/graph.html
(unfortunatly I had to reset these graphs last week due to some computer problemes). But you´ll get the idea of my problem with low pH anyway if you look.

I have a blue light turning on at 10:00, HQI light (250W 10K kelvin) at 14:00. HQI goes off at 23:00 and blue light at 01:00

Average pH is 7.80 but it has been very unstable, and unfortunaly it has been critical bad as low as 7.49. And like I mentioned above, it tend to fall before the light goes off, which tells me there is something very wrong somewhere.
I just can´t seem to find the damn reason for this.

Can any of you help or have any good advice/suggestions?

 

[Robert Jordan]

Kim,
I had the same problem and found the source of my low pH. It was the accumulation of too much carbon dioxide in the fishroom which always increased mostly when windows and doors are closed and not used. So you need to maintain a continous 24 hour supply of fresh air to the fish room and install an small exhaust fan to draw stale air to the outside. There is an article in Advanced Aquarist's online magazine in the April issue titled Indoor Air Quality which I submitted which explains everything. Go to< www.advancedaquarist.com > and extract the issue from the archives. Good Luck, Bob.

 

[Andersen]

Hi Rob.

That might well be the reason. I have noticed an increase in the pH when I open a window, and a critical low when we´re many people in our living room, (where the tank is placed). Unfortunaly the conditions doesn´t make it possible for me to have the windows open all time or to make an exhaust fan to supply fresh air. I would have to drill a hole in two walls to get to the outside
I will however try place an fan in my desk, so some fresh air from the living room will run above the sump all the time.. Perhaps it will help. But if the reason is carbon dioxide in the living room itself, then I got a serious problem. (Damn!).

Greets
Kim Andersen

 

[Anonymous]

How about using a "Nilsen Reactor" or dripping Kalkwasser to counter the effects of low ph. You could also use a second chamber on you calcium reactor and feed it to the start of your sump (if using one) also.

 

[Robert Jordan]

Kim,
Read my article anyway to see if you can come up with an idea of your own. If you have a forced hot air system along with central airconditioning, you could add a fresh air intake to that and that be be enough. It would certainly help. Kalkwasser may also be considered. Do a pH test on your tank and a sample gallon as explained in my article to see what the difference in pH is. Compare your results with my data and it will give you a ballpark figure on just how much CO2 is in the fishroom. Bob.

 

[Andersen]

Hi Gresham.

As I mentioned, I have tried increasing the flow on the reactor which brought the calcium up above 500, which in my opinion would be the same as adding ekstra kalkwasser (or calcium hydroxide). I may be wrong on this, as your suggestion has been mentioned as well on our danish forum, but in my opinion it shouldn´t matter, from where the calcium is coming, either added with an Nielsen reactor or from the reactor itself, it should make the same. (correct me if I´m wrong, please).

What worry me most is, if it´s because of the carbon dioxide, would I ever be able to compensentate from it then? I have filled half of my sump (about 10gal) with alges, in hope for them to "catch" some of the carbon dioxide, but untill now it hasn´t changed much :?

Greets

 

[Andersen]

Rob. I have read your article. Actually I read it some weeks ago in my search for the reason, and you´r article was one of a few which lead me into the climatic carbon dioxide.. (damn, lets call it Co2, it´s easyer ). I do however have a friend who told me he got some sort of device to test the Co2 in the room. However he have not responded since to my request. You´r test may come in hand, if he doesn´t respond soon.

Greets
Kim Andersen

 

[Anonymous]

The Kalkwasser is used in this situation for 2 reasons, 1. to increase calcium and 2. to increase PH. Your not going for the first, your going for the latter. I also believe Kalkwasser has an attraction to co2 which will help keep some of the co2 out of solution. I had a major battle with a tank in a restaurant(700g surge tank) that has very little fresh air and tons of patrons, leading to high co2 levels and low ph. I found by adding kalkwasser daily (Nilson Reactor would be better) I was able to counter the effects of the co2. As for the second chamber for your calcium reactor(check dyi articles for plans) it will also help strip extra co2 before leaving your CA reactor. You can make the 2nd chamber for very little, the largest cost will be the media.

 

[Andersen]

I have thought about a second chaimber for the calcium reactor. What keeps me back is, that I have tried in a periode of more than 14 days to shut off all co2 supply to the reactor. It didn´t change the pH, but insted lowered the alk (as I suspected). This tells me, that even though I supply co2 into the calcium reactor, it isn´t enough to affect the pH.
Adding kalkwasser may seem like my only solution. I think I´ll go for the Nielsen reactor in some way.. Do you happen to know any dyi for this?

Greets
Kim Andersen

 

[randy holmes-farley]

As others have pointed out, limewater is a great way to increase pH in a tank with a CaCO3/CO2 reactor. Many people do it for just that reason. It doesn't have to add much in the ways of calcium or alkalinity to actually raise the pH. IMO, there is no need for a Nilsen reactor for this application. Any slow addition is fine.

Here's an article on solving pH problems:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... 2/chem.htm

FWIW, most people have little success in raising the tank pH using a second chamber on the reactor itself.

 

[Andersen]

Just to let you all know.. I have found the reason for the low pH in my Tank. A friend of mine have leant me a Co2 tester, which I have set up in my living room, (same room where the tank is placed), and unfortunatly it showed exactly what I feared it would. At evening when the family has been in the livingroom for some hours, the Co2 in the air goes beyond 1000ppm, which is rather high. Opening the windows does lower it, but takes abit longer to remove the co2, than what it takes to build up again when the windows is closed.. So we have the choice between low pH in the tank, or sit in a very cold living room (it´s winter here in Denmark now). This is not good at all

 

[Robert Jordan]

Kim,
As Randy had pointed out; Dosing kalkwasser is a good way to raise pH. Try doing this first and then look for ways to decrease the CO2 load. This includes installing a fresh air intake to your main heating system with a valve to control the flow of fresh air into the return air side duct. Increase the draft on the heating system by teeing off the fresh air intake so that the furnace flame receives more fresh air. You should also install a small exhaust fan. This can be located in another room as long as the door of the fish room is left open. If you have a nearby bathroom with a exhaust fan, just leave it running. Remember; in order to have an efficient air exchange, you must have means to let fresh air in as well as a means to exhaust stale air. If you are using supplementary heat from a fireplace or unvented gas appliance, you should not use them. If you have a gas fired stove, always turn on the kitchen exhaust fan. and close the door that leads to the fish room when cooking. I almost forgot to mention to check your CO2 bottle, hoses and fittings for leaks using soap suds or professional type leak detector. Bob.

 

[Anonymous]

What about the use of plants for some of this CO2--O2 exchange issue? I'm talking houseplants as well, this can't be good for the occupants of the room, but clearly neither is allowing all that nice heat to escape.

 

[Robert Jordan]

Kim,
I cannot say just how effective a few plants would be. I would surmise that every room in the house would need a few large ones. Just guessing. Bob.

 

[Anonymous]

Who's Kim?

 

[Andersen]

Robert.. I forgot to mention, I already do use a Nelson reaktor for dosing kalkwasser. it´s an home made, but it works fine. The thing is when the co2 goes this high, the pH tend to drop all the way down below 8.0, and seem impossible to get above except for some minutes, after the reaktor has ran with fresh calcium in it.

I have already thought about ways to do some fresh air changes here, but it´s not that easy in my appartment. Leaving the air exhaust in the bathroom running isn´t changing anything. I have thought about drilling some pipes or something from the bathroom to the livingroom, to get the stale air out this way, but it´s a huge job, since I have to go through 3 thick walls. We do not have a main heating system which makes it possible to mix with fresh air. It s a central heating system.

I have also thought about plants for disolving the Co2. Infact yesterday I bought three new plants, which is suppose to disvolve Co2 (gives a more clean air, so they say). But they´re still pretty small. This may still not even be enough, unless I fill the livingroom with plants all over.

 

[Robert Jordan]

Kim,
Before you invest in plants, check with a plant researcher about the ability of plants to convert CO2 efficiently when the concentration is over 1000 ppm. I really do not think plants are the answer with this concentration. Your apartment may need to be turned into a jungle just to get some improvement . Bob.

 

[Anonymous]

That's what I was driving at. Is it an answer? Obviously, viability would be in part determined by several factors.

I wonder if creating a higher humidity might help the situation, though?

Yes, I probably have a very poor understanding of what's happening here on a molecular level, it just seems as though Andersen has been making good efforts towards a resolution of the problem.

It makes sense that getting to the root of the problem somehow is the real answer. Is your apartment in an old building, Andersen? I'm thinking about the exterior walls of my g-parents' place in San German, P.R. (yeah, tropical, but also OLD), those facing the street are two the three feet thick at least. Interior not quite so bad, but still...

Clearly, this will require some research on your part, and I'm wondering if someplace like "Sharper Image" might not have some contraption that could safely bring the O2 saturation in the whole room up. Hmm...

Off to do a quick search.

 

[Anonymous]

HEY! Looky what I found here...

This one on houseplants:
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/oc ... .Bt.r.html

For your car, but there has to be one that translates, right?
makin' it shorter! Geeze, that one was long.

This from Sharper Image, utilizes ozone (O3), plug-in (adapter needed, yeah), $70USD:
gotta make this one shorter, too.