Please evaluate my plumbing ...

[Nano-Neophyte]

I'm assembling the plumbing that goes from my sump - - to my pump - - to my tank and refugiums. I'm poised to order these all from Marine Depot and Savko so I hope they won't mind that I borrowed their images to create this illustration to help with my planning. A few questions:

1) How is the overall arrangement?
2) Are these the best choice for ball valves?
3) Am I missing anything?

This setup is for a 120 AGA tank and an above tank 30G refugium. I'd welcome any feedback at all.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Larry,

Welcome to RDO. I hope you find the site helpful. If you haven't already done so, please take a moment to check out this URL to help you get the most out of your Reefs.org experience: http://www.reefs.org/library/howto.html

Now on to your question,

It would be helpful for me to know where the pump returns are going, otherwise I am just guessing at their function. Also, what size pump you are using, what size pvc you are planning on, and what are you planning on having on the end of your returns?

The thing I can tell you now is you want to get rid of the check valve, they sitck, and your system should be designed so there is no back syphon if the pump is off, and so your sump can hold whatever water drains into it in the event of a power outage.

 

[Len]

One suggestion that comes immediately to mind (before knowing the good questions Righty asked) is instead of using an union connected to a fitting connected to a ball valve, you can just buy a threaded single union ball valve from various online vendors (our sponsors usually has them; Marine Depot does for sure). Single union ball valves combine a ball valve and a union on one side in a smaller, well-designed package. It not only saves room, it also has less likelihood of leaking due to over-complexicity.

Let us know where each effluent is going, and what size pump this is. It really looks like you are putting a bit too much "load" for a single pump.

By the way, I don't trust check valves whatsoever. They all fail sometime during their history, and it's generally not a good idea to design systems that absolutely require them. Make sure the sump can handle the backflow of water in case of power interruption. BTW, they also waste a good deal of gph.

 

[Nano-Neophyte]

Thank you righty and leonard for your thoughts. Here's the scoop on my system.

It's a 120G AGA tank with an approximately 30G custom sump. The main pump is an iwaki 70RLT. The top barbs are for the two main tank returns. The two barbs on the side go to a 30G above-tank refugium. the remaining arm is just in case. the PVC is 1 inch - matches the 1 inch leaving the pump. There's a reducer right before the return barb to 3/4 inches. The returns in the tank currently have a bit of locline .. but I plan to install Sea Swirls on each when my wife gives the "ok." <bg>

You both mention the futility of the check valve. That really is interesting. My locline sticks down into the tank some and would certainly suck water back into the tank should the pump shut down. What do you recommend doing to eliminate that problem?

 

[Anonymous]

Great. I think you only need one return for the sump. And the 'extra' return seems like a good idea, I did it myself, but have never, ever used it. Nor do I want to because I get a little scared having everything rely on one pump.

I think your pump will be sufficient, but I am in no way an expert on iwaki's.

As for the loc line, you can drill an anit siphon hole just below the water surface. Actually drill a couple of them in case of clogging, on both loc line returns. If the pump goes out, only a small amount of water will be siphoned into the sump. Keep the water in the sump at a level that can easily accomadate this water.

:mrgreen:

 

[fishguru]

Best way to test this once you drill the holes is to cut the Power on the system, then let all the water drain into the sump. This should stay pretty consistant. After it has all stopped draingingtake a piece of masking tape and put it at the water line, then fill the sump up as high as you want it to be normally. turn the pumps back on. then take another piece of masking tape and mark that water line. this is the Top fill line, which you dont want to fill over. Hope that helps-Guru

 

[amonhen]

I'm relatively new to plumbed systems; I don't know how much experience you have--maybe this is all obvious to you--but I wish somebody had told me these things. Anyway, here's the fruit of my V8 moments:

How is water getting from your sump to the pump? This part of my system gave me a lot of headaches. Even if your pump is lower than the water, if the piping goes above the sump's waterline at any point before reaching the pump you have issues to deal with. (I was using a glass aquarium for a sump; if you have a drilled sump these issues should be moot). Most of it I eventually solved by using Sen 700 pumps, which are submersible so I just drop them in the sump.
1. Don't use flexible tubing.
2. Keep the distance short.
3. Consider what will happen here when the power goes off. In my system, momentum carried water through this part. When the power comes back on, it was filled with air and the pump required manual priming.
4. Pay extra attention to making sure your joints are sealed; they need to be AIR tight. If you have any leaks, you won't get a water drip, you'll get annoying microbubbles in your system that no baffles will get rid of.

Finally, I can't tell from your pic, but I would recommend using threaded connections rather than solvent joints wherever connecting to a union or valve. These parts are relatively expensive, and if you screw up or want to change something, you won't really care about the $1.25 worth of cemented PVC pipe, but you'll be happy you can salvage and re-use that $7.00 valve.

--Jeff

 

[Anonymous]

1. Don't use flexible tubing.

If you are refering to spa flex, I disagree. If you are refering to clear tubing I may disagree.

2. Keep the distance short.

You betcha!

3. Consider what will happen here when the power goes off. In my system, momentum carried water through this part. When the power comes back on, it was filled with air and the pump required manual priming.

I am not quite sure how you got that to happen. Could you give some details?

4. Pay extra attention to making sure your joints are sealed; they need to be AIR tight. If you have any leaks, you won't get a water drip, you'll get annoying microbubbles in your system that no baffles will get rid of.

You betcha!

Finally, I can't tell from your pic, but I would recommend using threaded connections rather than solvent joints wherever connecting to a union or valve. These parts are relatively expensive, and if you screw up or want to change something, you won't really care about the $1.25 worth of cemented PVC pipe, but you'll be happy you can salvage and re-use that $7.00 valve.

Actually I am partial to slip joints myself. You know they arent gonna leak. I always leave several inches between each joint, so if I need to cut something out, it is still useful.

Nice discussion!

 

[amonhen]

1. Don't use flexible tubing.

If you are refering to spa flex, I disagree. If you are refering to clear tubing I may disagree.

By 'spa flex' do you mean the stuff with circular ridges (like an earthworm)? When I used 1" clear tubing for my pump intake it collapsed from the negative pressure. Cut down flow considerably. It may work if the tubing is perfectly round, but mine was slightly flattened from being rolled for shipping. You're right--spa flex wouldn't have this problem. I would think the ridges might collect detritis, though.

3. Consider what will happen here when the power goes off. In my system, momentum carried water through this part. When the power comes back on, it was filled with air and the pump required manual priming.

I am not quite sure how you got that to happen. Could you give some details?

Layout: My sump (glass aquarium) and pump are resting on the floor of the aquarium stand under the aquarium. The pump is below the waterline of the sump. Pipe goes from inside sump, over lip of sump, down to pump, from pump up to aquarium. When the pump is running, the whole system is full of water; life is good. When the power shuts off, I thought once the siphon was broken the water would simply go down to the 'pump to aquarium' pipe until it reached a height equal to the water level of the sump. This way, when the power came on, there would still be water in all parts from the sump to the pump, including the pump and part of the 'pump to aquarium', and water should be pumped no problem. Like the U-tube in an overflow.

What happened was that the momentum of the water in the system sucked the water all the way back to the sump. The pipe between the pump and sump became filled with air. When the pump is turned on, it has only air in the system which it can't pump; it can't suck water over the lip of the sump. No water flows; the system needs to be primed manually. This was particularly difficult on the side with a longer pipe between the sump and the pump.

4. Pay extra attention to making sure your joints are sealed; they need to be AIR tight. If you have any leaks, you won't get a water drip, you'll get annoying microbubbles in your system that no baffles will get rid of.

You betcha!

Finally, I can't tell from your pic, but I would recommend using threaded connections rather than solvent joints wherever connecting to a union or valve. These parts are relatively expensive, and if you screw up or want to change something, you won't really care about the $1.25 worth of cemented PVC pipe, but you'll be happy you can salvage and re-use that $7.00 valve.

Actually I am partial to slip joints myself. You know they arent gonna leak. I always leave several inches between each joint, so if I need to cut something out, it is still useful.

Yeah, you pay your money, take your choice.

Nice discussion!

Thanks. I don't pretend I can design a good system, but I at least hope I learned a few things that don't work!

 

[Anonymous]

By 'spa flex' do you mean the stuff with circular ridges (like an earthworm)? When I used 1" clear tubing for my pump intake it collapsed from the negative pressure. Cut down flow considerably. It may work if the tubing is perfectly round, but mine was slightly flattened from being rolled for shipping. You're right--spa flex wouldn't have this problem. I would think the ridges might collect detritis, though.

Yeah, some spa flex has rideges, and it is white. It is made of pvc so you can glue it right to your other fittings.
There are also different thicknesses of clear tubings, and the thinner ones collapse lots more than the thicker ones.

Layout: My sump (glass aquarium) and pump are resting on the floor of the aquarium stand under the aquarium. The pump is below the waterline of the sump. Pipe goes from inside sump, over lip of sump, down to pump, from pump up to aquarium. When the pump is running, the whole system is full of water; life is good. When the power shuts off, I thought once the siphon was broken the water would simply go down to the 'pump to aquarium' pipe until it reached a height equal to the water level of the sump. This way, when the power came on, there would still be water in all parts from the sump to the pump, including the pump and part of the 'pump to aquarium', and water should be pumped no problem. Like the U-tube in an overflow.

What happened was that the momentum of the water in the system sucked the water all the way back to the sump. The pipe between the pump and sump became filled with air. When the pump is turned on, it has only air in the system which it can't pump; it can't suck water over the lip of the sump. No water flows; the system needs to be primed manually. This was particularly difficult on the side with a longer pipe between the sump and the pump.

I suspect there was still some in the pump, just not enough to allow the pump to pull over the 'u tube'. Asking a pump to suck from higher than itself is asking a lot. A check valve may stop you having to re prime thie system, but they come with their own host of problems. This is why, as you discovered, most people use a submersible pump or drill the side of the sump.

Yeah, you pay your money, take your choice.

Nice discussion![/quote]

Thanks. I don't pretend I can design a good system, but I at least hope I learned a few things that don't work!

Again, thats for sharing. I always learn stuff from these discussions.