cyano and nitrogen

[Anonymous]

in this thread: http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=70232

A poster did not realize cyano bacteria can fix nitrogen from air as opposed to plant life using ammonia/nitrates.

A google search for "cyano nitrogen" produced these references:

http://www.cns.uni.edu/LakeStudy/cyano_ ... cteria.htm

One of the earliest types of bacteria are the cyanobacteria. Fossil evidence indicates that these bacteria existed approximately 3.3 billion years ago and were the first oxygen producing evolving phototropic organisms. They are responsible for the initial conversion of the earth’s atmosphere from an anoxic (state without oxygen) to an oxic (with oxygen) state. Being the first to carry out oxygenic photosynthesis, they were able to convert carbon dioxide into oxygen playing a major role in oxygenating the atmosphere.

http://fig.cox.miami.edu/Faculty/Dana/cyano.html

The autotrophic (auto = "self" tropho = "nourishment", Greek) cyanobacteria were once classified as "blue green algae" because of their superficial resemblance to eukaryotic green algae. Although both groups are photosynthetic, they are only distantly related: cyanobacteria lack internal organelles, a discrete nucleus and the histone proteins associated with eukaryotic chromosomes. Like all eubacteria, their cell walls contain peptidoglycan.
Studies of metabolic similarities and ribosomal RNA sequence suggest that cyanobacteria form a good, monophyletic taxon. Because motile species of cyanobacteria utilize the same mysterious gliding locomotion as the gram-negative gliding bacteria, some microbiologists suggest that cyanobacteria should be classified together as a subgroup of gliding bacteria.

Although they are truly prokaryotic, cyanobacteria have an elaborate and highly organized system of internal membranes which function in photosynthesis. Chlorophyll a and several accessory pigments (phycoerythrin and phycocyanin) are embedded in these photosynthetic lamellae, the analogs of the eukaryotic thylakoid membranes. The photosynthetic pigments impart a rainbow of possible colors: yellow, red, violet, green, deep blue and blue-green cyanobacteria are known.


Cyanobacteria may be single-celled or colonial. Depending upon the species and environmental conditions, colonies may form filaments, sheets or even hollow balls. Some filamentous colonies show the ability to differentiate into three different cell types. Vegetative cells are the normal, photosynthetic cells formed under favorable growing conditions. Climate-resistant spores may form when environmental conditions become harsh. A third type of cell, a thick-walled heterocyst, contains the enzyme nitrogenase, vital for nitrogen fixation.

Heterocyst-forming species are able to "fix" nitrogen gas, which cannot be absorbed by plants, into ammonia (NH3), nitrites(NO2) or nitrates (NO3), which can be absorbed by plants and converted to protein and nucleic acids. The rice paddies of Asia, which feed about 75% of the world's human population, could not do so were it not for healthy populations of nitrogen-fixing cyanobacteria in the rice paddy waters.


Found in almost every conceivable habitat, from oceans to fresh water to bare rock to soil, cyanobacteria produce the compounds responsible for "earthy" odors we detect in soil and some bodies of water (such as those being cyanobacterially cleaned at water treatment plants). The greenish slime on the side of your damp flower pot, the wall of your house or the trunk of that big tree is more likely to be cyanobacteria than anything else. Cyanobacteria have even been found on the fur of polar bears, to which they impart a greenish tinge!

And many more.

This was one of those OMG moments for me after years of having various slimes build up just when I thought tanks were doing so well.

My current thinking is that as the "cycle" completes and nitrates finally go to 0, the cyano are still there awaiting a chance.

with plant life becoming nitrogen limited the cyano has no such limitation. with slower plant growth phosphates and other nutrients for the cyano are increasing. As well as slower co2 consmption (higher co2).

So you get a low nitrogen, higher phosphates, higher co2 environment and the cyano takes its nitrogen from gas and blooms.

Which also may explain why cyano in salt show up on substraits and rocks where nitrogen gas is being created by anaerobic bacteria.

So to fight it, increase the oxygen, decrease the co2 (circulation), and get the plant life growing again. Add nitrogen, add bioload (fish), harvest plants or macros. But get the plant life growing again to consume the nutrients and co2 the cyano needs.

If the quote above is correct that cyano results in nitrogen gas to ammonia/nitrate, then DSB operations may have real problems. Obvously, it is not a very stable operation to have nitrates to n2(gass) to ammonia all at the substrait. Unless you break up that cycle, the effectivness of the sand be should deteriorate. As the sand bed becomes autotrophic (big word from above) it is less able to process the nitrogen from the tank. Sure sounds like old tank problems to me.

 

[Anonymous]

er- how do you determine what percentage of the N in the tank is actually from atmospheric N as opposed to the N coming from the tank environment, and how do you measure the relative uptake of the N source by the cyano?

stating that cyano have the ablity to 'fix' N from atmospheric 'N', and stating that most of the 'N' absorbed by cyano is atmospheric, is a pretty big leap of faith, imo.(and doesn't necessarily follow)

 

[Anonymous]

er- how do you determine what percentage of the N in the tank is actually from atmospheric N as opposed to the N coming from the tank environment, and how do you measure the relative uptake of the N source by the cyano?

stating that cyano have the ablity to 'fix' N from atmospheric 'N', and stating that most of the 'N' absorbed by cyano is atmospheric, is a pretty big leap of faith, imo.(and doesn't necessarily follow)

First, the quote above were just the first two from the results of the google search. I'll trust their judgment and measuring techniques.

Second, this is not an unusual thing in the plant world. But then I graduated from Iowa State University where George Washington Craver developed his crop rotation techniques. Which rely on nitrogen fixing plants like soy beans and peanuts to replenish the soil.

Finally, as I stated, the cyano shows up after the tank seems to be going strong. In my current salt, cyano showed up once nitrates dropped below 10ppm. They bloomed on the back glass in my in tank low flow refugium. And diminish when I harvest the macros. So the cyano likes a low nitrogen, low flow environment.

If it is 98% air and 2% nitrates or 95%air and 5%nitrates it doesn't make any difference. Once nitrates fall the cyano blooms. The above just explains why that happens.

and hence my warning to ozboy.

 

[Anonymous]

Once nitrates fall the cyano blooms. The above just explains why that happens.

and hence my warning to ozboy.

That has never been my experience with mature systems. I have almost always had a cyano bloom of some size on new systems but I have never had a cyano bloom on a mature system. (knock on wood)

 

[Anonymous]

Once nitrates fall the cyano blooms. The above just explains why that happens.

and hence my warning to ozboy.

That has never been my experience with mature systems. I have almost always had a cyano bloom of some size on new systems but I have never had a cyano bloom on a mature system. (knock on wood)

I think you are correct Guy.

My experience is with planted tanks. In that environment the ammonia, nitrates, and phosphates in the tap water are being consumed by the plants from the get go. Therefore, the nusiance algaes and cyano never bloom. But once fish are added and being fed, then a few months later the cyano shows up.

I did get very minor cyano as my 55g salt/reef was cycling. But that was before the macros were added let alone in control. Once the macros were in control there was no cyano until nitrates went below 10ppm and stayed there.

but without establishing plant life as the first thing, there were the algae blooms including some cyano.

 

[Anonymous]

er- how do you determine what percentage of the N in the tank is actually from atmospheric N as opposed to the N coming from the tank environment, and how do you measure the relative uptake of the N source by the cyano?

stating that cyano have the ablity to 'fix' N from atmospheric 'N', and stating that most of the 'N' absorbed by cyano is atmospheric, is a pretty big leap of faith, imo.(and doesn't necessarily follow)

First, the quote above were just the first two from the results of the google search. I'll trust their judgment and measuring techniques.

Second, this is not an unusual thing in the plant world. But then I graduated from Iowa State University where George Washington Craver developed his crop rotation techniques. Which rely on nitrogen fixing plants like soy beans and peanuts to replenish the soil.

Finally, as I stated, the cyano shows up after the tank seems to be going strong. In my current salt, cyano showed up once nitrates dropped below 10ppm. They bloomed on the back glass in my in tank low flow refugium. And diminish when I harvest the macros. So the cyano likes a low nitrogen, low flow environment.

If it is 98% air and 2% nitrates or 95%air and 5%nitrates it doesn't make any difference. Once nitrates fall the cyano blooms. The above just explains why that happens.

and hence my warning to ozboy.

that's your answer??!!

hardy har har :lol:

so what do they say about measuring the relative uptake of the sources of nitrogen, and how they change, based upon source availability?



btw, i'm asking YOU, since you're spewing out the 'advice', not them.

why do you trust the advice? how do you know how it applies in the real world of aquaria?

 

[Anonymous]

why can cyano be eliminated solely by eliminating PO4, even when N is available (i mean, according to you, it's always available, from the 'dissolved air'

you seem to imply that cyano should always be present due to its N fixing capability :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Once nitrates fall the cyano blooms. The above just explains why that happens.

and hence my warning to ozboy.

That has never been my experience with mature systems. I have almost always had a cyano bloom of some size on new systems but I have never had a cyano bloom on a mature system. (knock on wood)

I think you are correct Guy.

My experience is with planted tanks. In that environment the ammonia, nitrates, and phosphates in the tap water are being consumed by the plants from the get go. Therefore, the nusiance algaes and cyano never bloom. But once fish are added and being fed, then a few months later the cyano shows up.

I did get very minor cyano as my 55g salt/reef was cycling. But that was before the macros were added let alone in control. Once the macros were in control there was no cyano until nitrates went below 10ppm and stayed there.

but without establishing plant life as the first thing, there were the algae blooms including some cyano.

in over 30 years, i've NEVER seen cyano bloom, or even appear, in a healthy well stocked established tank

yours must be the mismanaged exception that proves the well managed rule :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Whoops... I forgot what forum I was in.

I am totally ignorant about freshwater systems.... sorry people....

Guy <--- bows out clumbsily

 

[Anonymous]

...

in over 30 years, i've NEVER seen cyano bloom, or even appear, in a healthy well stocked established tank

yours must be the mismanaged exception that proves the well managed rule :wink:

So anytime cyano show up it simply means (to you) that aquarium is unhealthy, unestablished, and/or not well stocked.

Yet I have cyano and my fish and plants are just fine. And my reef has fish and corals just fine also. Just like healthy reef tank must absolutely be covered with corraline. Yet my reef has limited corraline and things are thriving.

With my planted tanks a bit of cyano is a welcome site. It simply means the plants are controlling the tank, nitrates have fallen to extremely low values giving the cyano a chance.and sure I take steps to reduce the cyano. but the apearance of cyano actually means the tank is extremely mature and stable.

but then you run your tanks differently. So you can't understand these points. Meanwhile ozboy's tank is doing just fine. Dispite all the "bad advice" of mine he has followed.

 

[Anonymous]

you're contradicting yourself in your own post, and you're a troll


i'm still waiting for you to answer the questions posed to you for you to back up the 'evidence' you cite as 'proof' that cyano feeds off of atmospheric 'N' in an aquarium, and is not an indication of phosphate pollution

 

[Anonymous]

...

in over 30 years, i've NEVER seen cyano bloom, or even appear, in a healthy well stocked established tank

yours must be the mismanaged exception that proves the well managed rule :wink:

So anytime cyano show up it simply means (to you) that aquarium is unhealthy, unestablished, and/or not well stocked.

Yet I have cyano and my fish and plants are just fine. And my reef has fish and corals just fine also. Just like healthy reef tank must absolutely be covered with corraline. Yet my reef has limited corraline and things are thriving.

With my planted tanks a bit of cyano is a welcome site. It simply means the plants are controlling the tank, nitrates have fallen to extremely low values giving the cyano a chance.and sure I take steps to reduce the cyano. but the apearance of cyano actually means the tank is extremely mature and stable.

but then you run your tanks differently. So you can't understand these points. Meanwhile ozboy's tank is doing just fine. Dispite all the "bad advice" of mine he has followed.

the pictures of your tanks you've posted thus far are excellent examples of dirty polluted tanks with excessive algae growth indicative of organic pollution

 

[Anonymous]

What you think is a dirty poluted tank is my thriving reef.

 

[Anonymous]

What you think is a dirty poluted tank is my thriving reef.

well, exactly


there's a message there for you in there, somewhere :idea:


(what you call 'thriving' doesn't come close to what most consider to be 'thriving' :wink: )

 

[Anonymous]

What you think is a dirty poluted tank is my thriving reef.

well, exactly


there's a message there for you in there, somewhere :idea:


(what you call 'thriving' doesn't come close to what most consider to be 'thriving' :wink: )

the presence of plant life even algae and that in cyano bacteria does not mean there is any measureable amount of ammonia, nitrIte, nitrates, or phosphates.

After all those are all products of a bioload in a closed environment.

So you either have plant life, no bioload, or an open system constantly pumping in new water.

I choose to simply embrace that basic fact. Just a cal and ozboy have. And as a result they have systems that require virtually no maintenance yet are thriving.

As I said, you have a different outlook. Different standards. Therefore, the above scientific evidence doesn't make sense to you.

If there is something you don't understand why not ask directly. Instead of flaming a tank you have never seen. And ignoring cal's ond ozboy's successes.

From above cyano does live in marine and fw environments.

Cyano does take gasseous nitrogen.

Plants do consume nitrates and phosphates.

plant do slow growth as nitrates become limited.

plants then slow phosphate consumption

then phosphates rise in the water column

Air with nitrogen is dissolved in the tank water.

cyano then uses that nitrogen, phosphates, and carbon dioxide to grow.

Just as happens in nitrate limited fw and marine bodies of water.


Therefore, one way to prevent the cyano is to increase the ammonia, nitrates in the water.

What part of that does not make sense to you?

 

[Anonymous]

you haven't provided ANY scientific evidence to back anything you've stated so far on this BB


if you have a closed environment, how can atmospheric 'N' enter your tanks to feed the cyano? :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

people who make blanket assumptive statements on a BB and then refuse to back them up are known as trolls, btw

 

[Anonymous]

What you think is a dirty poluted tank is my thriving reef.

well, exactly


there's a message there for you in there, somewhere :idea:


(what you call 'thriving' doesn't come close to what most consider to be 'thriving' :wink: )

the presence of plant life even algae and that in cyano bacteria does not mean there is any measureable amount of ammonia, nitrIte, nitrates, or phosphates.

After all those are all products of a bioload in a closed environment.

So you either have plant life, no bioload, or an open system constantly pumping in new water.

I choose to simply embrace that basic fact. Just a cal and ozboy have. And as a result they have systems that require virtually no maintenance yet are thriving.

As I said, you have a different outlook. Different standards. Therefore, the above scientific evidence doesn't make sense to you.

If there is something you don't understand why not ask directly. Instead of flaming a tank you have never seen. And ignoring cal's ond ozboy's successes.

From above cyano does live in marine and fw environments.

Cyano does take gasseous nitrogen.

Plants do consume nitrates and phosphates.

plant do slow growth as nitrates become limited.

plants then slow phosphate consumption

then phosphates rise in the water column

Air with nitrogen is dissolved in the tank water.

cyano then uses that nitrogen, phosphates, and carbon dioxide to grow.

Just as happens in nitrate limited fw and marine bodies of water.


Therefore, one way to prevent the cyano is to increase the ammonia, nitrates in the water.

What part of that does not make sense to you?

you embrace nothing- you misrepresent chains of events, falsely explain them, and evade challenges to back up your false assertions, after you cite, incompletely, OTHER people statements without understanding them yourself

 

[Anonymous]

stating that cyano has the ability to fix atmospheric nitrogen is NOT the same as saying it feeds on dissolved nitrogen that is entered into an aquarium from the atmosphere


but since you think it IS the same, why can't you provide any hard data showing how much 'N" is indeed absorbed, and what percentage of cyano's total 'N" uptake it represents, compared to what's produced in an Aquarium

if you cannot provide this data-you are not just simply assuming that what someone else said is true, you are making a HUGE unfounded leap to an erroneous conclusion, and then refusing to meet the challenge

makes for bad science, and bad aquarium keeping

 

[Anonymous]

at this point I'll just let the readers determine.

Hopefully they add to the discussions.