Decipher yourself between vendor/private seller?

[evoIX_Reefer]

I don't think my setup or ability to sell out of a 60g frag tank setup will be really any profit so I want to cannex that idea but I will have misc things for sale and can grow out. When does becoming a vendor/private seller become a grey line. I won't be promoting myself as a vendor but I may have more frags for sale than a normal private seller because I do have additional space to cut up and frag/grow out my own live stock.

"Do it for my own reef and not to be an entrepreneur" would be the best verbiage to describe what I feel my status will be. I just don't want to cross a possible grey area.

 

[tunicata]

hmm...if you are buying a tank set up, and buying frags/getting frags and cutting them up, with price tags in mind I would consider you are a vendor because of the intent.
It seems like you intend to make money, even if you don't get high profit margins.
Also, we have people here that do pay to be a vendor, and you would most likely continuously undercut their prices and therefore reduce their financial investment in the site.

So, if a hobbyist, just happens to trim their overgrown corals and sells them to recoup cost and sells in the marketplace a few frags, that's one thing.
But, to have bought a coral, cut it up, saved a few peices to grow out with the intent of cutting it up again and selling all other frags in a 'frag tank'....that's a whole different story.

I mean...it essentially boils down to the letter and spirit of the rules here.

When I saw your thread the other day, I read it as "you are setting up to be a new vendor that is also in the hobby for the love of it".

 

[evoIX_Reefer]

As noted, that is the grey area of intent.

You made the perfect analogy!

"So, if a hobbyist, just happens to trim their overgrown corals and sells them to recoup cost and sells in the marketplace a few frags, that's one thing.
But, to have bought a coral, cut it up, saved a few peices to grow out with the intent of cutting it up again and selling all other frags in a 'frag tank'....that's a whole different story."

I may end up buying corals from vendors where I allow them to grow out in my frag tank prior to setting up my display or dislike a coral in my main display and sell. I just don't want to go over a threshold of sales that it becomes me becoming a vendor or doing anything illegal or frowned upon.

I do understand between the lines and respect every vendor on here that is why I want to ensure I do not touch a grey area in respect for everyone on this site. Definitely respect the MR community and those that provide additional cost to keep this site up.

I guess create a business plan and go from there so I'm prepared either way.

 

[prattreef]

This is a very grey area and one MR struggles with daily. One clear line of demarcation is if you are buying wholesale for resale.

There is also a difference if you are selling frags from mother colonies in a well established display or if you have set up a significant frag system solely for the purpose of selling. Again grey areas. Frequency and quantity are also considerations.

Being upfront about what you are doing ( like you are --bravo) instead of trying to slide under the radar also helps Admin. determine intentions.

 

[tomtoothdoc]

i must be the worst stealth vendor on mr.....i bought a black tang with the intend to make enough profit to retire on, posted it for less than what i paid for, didn't sell and decided to keep it. i guess i can't retire just yet.....hahaha
perhaps i should frag it....lol...

 

[James]

Tom, you suck as a stealth vendor. Especially when you donated tanks, pumps, shrimps and coral to my school.... you are supposed to make $ off this hobby man, not help kids learn nor spark their interest in the environment and science!

 

[mbg75]

We have others on here who's only posts are selling items.
Especially when they buy someone else's and either chop it up to sell, or just resell for more money.

 

[strgazr27]

In this hobby the only way for some of us to keep up is to frag a colony we have and occasionally sell off those cuttings in hopes of putting that small amount of money made (in respect to what we invest in this hobby on a daily,weekly or monthly basis) back into our systems. It helps to offset the cost of this hobby and this hobby is far from the only one where people do that. We just need to do it more often. I see nothing wrong with an individual having a small frag tank setup and growing out frags to sell. Like it has been said. If your buying wholesale and re-selling, have a website or storefront that makes you a vendor. Building something that copies something already available at a cheaper price makes you a vendor ( and depending on what you copy open for litigation lol).
JMO

 

[evoIX_Reefer]

Tom man, you are evil. I'll take a frag or two though!

strgzr - that is what my grey area question is. Since I won't be getting a license etc to buy from a wholesaler and it's buying from other members/vendors for my own reef but growing it out first and then "aquaculture" frags into colonies/mini-colonies to gain back some money from the hobby. Does that become vendor-like status or does it depend on quantity sold? What if I decide to reduce sale threads on here but place them on craigslist to reduce that grey area of quantity?

I see how some stealth mode vendor like actions and etiquette of buying from a member that is letting it go cheap to turn around for an investment is very frowned upon. I for one think it's shady but obvious smart in some ways.

I have a high moral conscience so I tend to frown upon it but I am logical as well that it makes business sense to gain more money for this heavy $$$ hobby. You are essentially taking something that someone no longer needs or wants that is willing to let go for cheap, turn it around and sell it since you have more time.

Thanks for everyone's input. Every word is definitely being looked at and how I intend to proceed will be based as such!




Example scenario:
I purchase jr973 awesome frags and grow them out with intent to add them to my reef but also to recoup or profit slightly to buy more.

Does that make it intent for vendor-like or hobby-like? I am enjoying the reef but business like to possibly recoup or profit in the future.

 

[James]

Example scenario:
I purchase jr973 awesome frags and grow them out with intent to add them to my reef but also to recoup or profit slightly to buy more.

Does that make it intent for vendor-like or hobby-like? I am enjoying the reef but business like to possibly recoup or profit in the future.

It seems pretty cut and dry here (IMO only), if you grow out frags to a colony in your display and mount some frags to sell as your colony grows that is fine. I think if you do the same thing but with intentions to sell from the beginning and with a frag tank to grow them (not from the colony in your display) then that leans more towards vendor territory.

All said, I appreciate you being honest and having a dialogue about it and not just trying to get by under the radar to the detriment of the site as a whole.
Why do you feel the need for the frag tank? If you are successful at keeping colonies alive and growing, trimming them back when needed will help alleviate expenses without any ethical qualms.

 

[evoIX_Reefer]

I already bought two systems. Having a frag tank or grow out tank allows for additional space for unwanted corals or decide what corals you want, no unsightly frag racks in the display, just added benefits.

Most people have additional tanks for grow out or just frag tanks in general for placing coral to get better/faster grow out. I believe in my point of view the frag tank/grow out tank will be easier to keep levels adjusted for better growth. It can be done obviously in the display tank but a grow out tank just has pros (better water quality, easier to maintain, etc) vs the main reason most people don't have one: space limited.

 

[peteyboyny]

Sounds to me like you want to be a vendor but want to try to operate in that "grey area" to avoid being labeled a vendor and paying associated fees etc. "Intent" is the idea here. Looking for "Loop Holes" in the system to operate and turn profit makes you no longer a hobbyist.

 

[peteyboyny]

Has anyone bothered to read this?
As per the Manhattan Reefs Marketplace Rules:
. -If you are not a vendor and have made a purchase with the intent to resell here - it is considered vendoring and you are required to post in the Vendor Forum

 

[James]

I would argue that running a frag tank is not only an issue of space but also of cost and time (more lights, testing, water changes, additives, electric bills, powerheads, etc...) so in essence you have another tank, just without LR or non-coral inhabitants. Since you sunk and are sinking all that extra money, selling corals from that tank becomes a logical next step... whether that makes you a vendor or not is unknown to me.

 

[peteyboyny]

Having a frag tank to keep your "trimmings" in is one thing. Even if you decide to sell them. Recouping costs, fair market value, etc is assumed.
Intentionally trying to operate in a "grey area" takes away from existing vendors (who have paid for their right to operate as a business), it takes away from the "spirit" of a hobbyist forum, and it encourages others to do the same and exploit "loop holes" in the system, which in turn will prompt the "powers that be" to take action to close these "loop holes" ultimately making it hard for everyone to use the marketplace or the possibility of it being eliminated. All of this at the expense of slapping good standing vendors in the face. Whats right is right. Intent is everything. If you are purchasing livestock, equipment, supplies from other members with the INTENT of reselling for a profit, YOU ARE A VENDOR. If you are purchasing livestock, equipment, or supplies from ANY outside source with the INTENT to sell for a profit on any forum, YOU ARE A VENDOR. That is why vendors pay fees, it is a form of advertising for them. Advertising makes up a pretty good part of overhead for any business. It is unethical to circumvent rules of a hobbyist forum for your own personal gain. I myself would never do business with a vendor that was intentionally manipulating the system that way. Sorry for my rant. JMO.

 

[evoIX_Reefer]

Peteyboy - I think you are making great points and if this thread is not pointing out that I don't want to touch that grey area then you are missing the point of this thread.

I am not the type to do such a thing or want to create an exploit to the system with the fact I highly respect the community. MR has a lot of great people and I don't need to be that bad apple.

I will take my business on another medium like craigslist and won't post anything on here if that is the case. Unless it's for a trade instead of sell.

Thank you for making it a simple answer with covering the MR rule book.

I hope others hear out what was said in this thread!!!

 

[peteyboyny]

Its all good.

 

[tomtoothdoc]

most of us know who the stealth vendors are. i for one do not support them. many times they do have what i really want but i will not deal with them regardless of price or rarity. but that's just me.

mike is a good guy and honest about what his intentions are....that shows integrity.....unlike those dishonest shady stealth vendors and losers who low ball the sales and then turn around and make profits off those items. you know who you are.....

 

[evoIX_Reefer]

Thanks Tom!

I wonder if there's a huge difference between here and RC. I know RC staff is extremely strict at times and this type of stealth vendors occur often. I've seen sellers selling many packages. Surprised that site doesn't get locked down as hard.

 

[James]

Thanks Tom!

I wonder if there's a huge difference between here and RC. I know RC staff is extremely strict at times and this type of stealth vendors occur often. I've seen sellers selling many packages. Surprised that site doesn't get locked down as hard.

RC is much larger and it is not a localized site. Speculation and he said/she said are all the mods there have to go on since most of the sales are through the mail. Mods here would not identify people as stealth vendors without conclusive proof that is easier to obtain when everyone knows everyone. The end result is stealth vending hurts the community and people who do not understand the long term rationale behind that are the ones supporting it because they can get good deals, which is all they see. I think this is why MR is tough on stealth vendors as they should be... it is about money as much as it is about community.