Anyone else notice that liverock looks pretty lame lately?

[Eboman]

Is it just me....or has liverock really gone downhill in the last couple of years?

I remember about three and four years ago when you could go to the LFS and get some awesome, corraline coated, great looking liverock with all kinds of cool stuff on it for pretty cheap.

Now, the price has doubled and it pretty much looks like base rock that's been put in a system for three weeks. No corraline, no sponges, no nothing...

What's up with that??

Eboman

 

[Carpentersreef]

I totally agree, have you checked out Waltsmiths website? They pressure wash it before it's sent out! Mind you, I don't know what condition it's in after they collect it. And to what extent is the LR affected at the LFS? They seem to keep it in a dark tank with nothing more than recirculation and MAYBE a skimmer maintaining it. Would it be so wrong to throw a light on the tank and keep some macro going?

 

[srbayless]

Howdy,

Is this liverock from the same store you looked at several years ago? I haven't noticed any difference in the stuff where I buy it here in So. Cal.

The LFS I use has OK fiji rock with some coralline and very few critters on it, which he has always carried. The best place I have seen that is local and with reasonalble pricing is Jeff's exotic fish. I haven't been there for a month or so, but the rock looked just the same (very nice) as it always has when I was there.

Maybe this is a case of your LFS switching suppliers and getting bad stuff.

Check out some of the recent threads on reefers getting LR from some of the MO companies. Most are raving about the rock, definitely a far cry from the rock you are describing. You might want to think about MO if you are unable to find any better looking rock in your area.

The only place I have seen rock like you mentioned is a store that I go to just for kicks. I was walking around the saltware area and noticed thier LR storage tank. It was being lit with 2x20w NO tubes and the rock was all brown and covered in diatoms. They wanted $4.50 for this stuff, no wonder they never sell any.

I would point it out to them, but these are the same people who have a 180g reef tank where they keep all the corals for sale. There must be at least 5 or 6 Open Brain skeletons, 4 Gonipora that are slowly sliming themselves to death, and numerable shrooms that are dead or bleaching. No use in trying to talk to people who are that clueless.

I know, I should talk to them. The last time I tried to help and educate a store owner, I was banned from the store. You think store owners would stop buying corals that they loose money on, but they keep the cycle going.

Good luck,

Scott.

 

[arnjer]

i can say that i was pleased with the rock i got from www.gulfview.com
it was better that any of the rock i could get from the LFS and the price was good also
from my understanding it was harvested from the ocean the day before i got it and it had macro algea, tunicates, and other things that keep popping up from nowhere just take precautions against mantis shrimp i didn't but i have not noticed any signs of any either also from what i understand the warm months is when the rock kinds goes dormant then during the fall it springs back and is full of stuff

jerry

 

[Lunchbucket]

my LFS wants $16/lb!!!!! yes sixteen!! that is a total f_cking rip off!! i can get so much more better stuff for that. MO got my LR money. i got some decent stuff from www.anchofish.com good coraline but not too many critters. i had a lobster that would have made it but i tried pulling him out w/ a tweezers and accidentally killed him!! could have been good or bad

i thought i would get more stuff on my LR but i should have gotten raw since i had NOTHING in my tank!

later
Lunchbucket

 

[zt allstar]

The live rock here in Michigan looks like crap. Can't find any decent looking stuff at any of the LFS.

 

[bigtank]

I got mine from Flying Fish Express. Only $99 plus shipping for 45 pounds at the time.

Don't buy it at the LFS in most cases. Why pay the mega markup LFS price when you can get it cheap???

 

[Anonymous]

Click on the website in my signature. Go to the last page. That is the same Aquacultured live rock you can get from Gulfview. It has more life, sponges, corals, invertebrates than any of the fiji, tonga, south pacific rock I have seen and it has 0 impact on reefs. BTW that is exactly how it looked when I purchased it.

 

[Tremelle]

There is also an increased number of people and businesses that are decorating with tanks now. With that comes a demand for fish, rock, and corals. That will cause the quality of product to decline through demand.

 

[cgbexec]

Hi everyone,

I am fairly new to this board and I have a question, and a comment. I have read people getting flamed for keeping a tang in a 55 gallon tank. These same people who do the flaming purchase live rock which is harvested from endangered reefs. This rock is full of life when harvested and allowed to die(This is done for one reason only, to reduce shipping cost.). The only reason I bring this up is because you are questioning the quality of live rock available today. Why not purchase aquacultured live rock? I know of at least two companies who ship the rock under water, and because it is harvesed in the US, primarily FL, there is little die off due to reduced shipping times. Don't get me wrong, If the Figi stuff was not so expensive, I would have bought some. I'm glad I did not, because the aquacultured stuff is so much better and better for the environment. Please don't start a Flame War, this is just meant to be thought prevoking.

Chris

 

[srbayless]

Howdy,

Chris, good point. I think people are less worried about die off of live rock critters because they are usually plant life or incidental creatures. It's sort of an "out of sight, out of mind" thing.

I find it outrageous when someone puts a fish that requires alot of space into a small tank. This can be a tang, large angel, even a full sized volitans lionfish. I would not flame anyone who did this, just try to explain that they need to do some research on the fish they want to keep.

Let's face it, fish will always get more sympathy in this hobby than the other life forms. We as humans just find it easier to get worked up about creatures with faces. When was the last time you heard an outcry about those lobster tanks at the local super market.

Heck, the majority of us reefers would hunt down and try to destroy a mantis shrimp if we found one in our tank. The same goes for Aiptasia. These are both living creatures, but they just don't evoke the same heart strings that fish do. Whether this is because we deem them nuisance critters or they just aren't appealing to our eyes, I don't know.

Anyway, I have to go and Kalk the heck out of a few Aiptasia in my 80g

Scott.

 

[SPC]

Chris, I have a question for you and then a comment.
How does allowing the live rock to die reduce shipping costs? I know that the aquacultured rock that I purchase dosen't have that much life on it. Yes it has more than the normal Fiji rock, but as far as weight I think this is negligible. Both are shipped dry, no extra weight there.
My problem with large fish in small tanks is the quality of life for the animal. If you were to purchase a Tang and eat it, that would not bother me at all. I dont order Lobster because of those holding tanks, but would not hesitate to eat one that I had just pulled from the sea. Death is natural for all living things, torment is not.
Steve

 

[skylsdale]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

My other point is that we are so worried about one tang but the destruction of the reefs due to live rock harvesting is ok and we support it. Like I said, I'm in this hobby and it is good that we care about our animals and try to teach others to care as well.

Seems like a slight double-standard here...how can you claim to care so much for these micro organisms and then show so much disregard for the welfare of other organisms (i.e. tang in a 55)?!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

I also collect my own fish for my tanks.

Congratulations Chris! You have successfully contributed first-hand to the decline of the reef and its complex ecosystem!

I have to agree with SPC in that there are other factors that contribute to the destruction of the reefs besides LR harvesting. I just saw a special the other night on the destruction of magrove swamps in S. America for farming, industry, etc. The causes mass amounts of silt to be washed down the riverways, out through the deltas, and into the ocean where the debris and sediment chokes out large sections of the reef and its inhabitants. A few divers with pick axes would have a hard time doing the same amount of damage as a silt cloud miles long. Do I agree with the harvesting? Not necessarily (all my LR was aquacultured), but you have to keep in mind that there are far more factors--even natural factors such as storms--that affect these ecosystems.

 

[Anonymous]

I do not thnk that Chris ever said our hobby is the biggest reason for the destruction of the reefs. The point he was making is why should we contribute in any shape.

He tries to help in a very polite way and people start flaming.

The point about his collecting is really in bad form. By him taking it directly to his tank, he has eliminated 3 or 4 times that same fish would have to adjust to new water and being caught up if he had bought it.
It also raise the survivabilty about what 600% - 1000%.

We all love to make a point but argueing with someone trying to do the right thing, we can argue better points than that.

I know Steve is serious about finding a better source for Live Rock and not setting you up for a arguement Chris.

[ July 01, 2001: Message edited by: Fishaholic ]

 

[cgbexec]

I love this hobby and I did not mean for this to turn into a flame war. I do think this hobby has contributed to the destruction of the reefs in some way albeit small. The harvesting of natural live rock has now been banned in most countries for many years except for a few small third world countries. Several Governments have recognized this is a very destructive practice. I also realize that there are much more destructive elements. They still allow sewer runnoff here in Florida when water levels are high, such as after heavy rains. This water is pumped offshore via pipes so as not to harm bathers. The pipe out flow is very near the reefs. Many comunities on the water are still on septic systems. On and On and On. But since people on this board seem to be genuinly concerned about the animals we keep and the environtment our animals come from, I just thought that aqua-cultred live rock may allow us to harm the reefs even less.

I was born in Florida and have been collecting my own fish since I was 9 or 10. I use aquarium fish nets. I have not lost a fish in collection in 13 years. I also use natural ocean water in my tanks collected not far from where I catch the fish. I try to keep my tanks parameters as close to the conditions found on the Florida reefs as possible. 13 years ago, I tried a Slurp Gun to capture fish. This thing works very well and it also kills fish very well. At that time I was losing about 30-40% of the fish caught. Some died instantly and others did not look good after capture and died shortly after. This thing is very violent and should not be allowed. I have not used it since. My fish go from capture to tank in no more than 7 hours.

I could only find one link. When I find the other link, I'll post it. This is where I bought my live rock, and yes they ship submerged. http://www.tbsaltwater.com/

 

[SPC]

Chris,
I dont know how you got flame war out of this discussion, it just seemed like an exchange of ideas and knowledge to me.
Thanks for the link. I went to the site and did see where they ship the rock fully submerged, man, shipping is expensive this way though. I bet they are having one heck of a time competing against the others due to shipping costs. It looks like it would be cheaper for us that live in south Ga. to drive down and pick it up.
And your point about run off etc... in Fla destroying the reefs is the reallity of money talking. I was brought up in Miami and saw much of this go on. The everglades and Fla bay are in the shape they are due to the sugar cane companies and their power. I can remember as a boy in the 50s and 60s my dad talking about how the sugar cane companys had the most power in Fla., and did as they liked with the land, all the canals are proof of that.
To your other point about the ban of collecting LR in other countries, I wonder if it has made any difference to the reefs. If these places have the equivalent of the Fla sugar cane companies, I would say it wont make much difference. Last year I read were the new airport in Fiji was built using live rock for the foundation. I agree with you that we as hobbiest should be concerned about the destruction of the reefs, and I feel that most on these boards are. The problem is we are a very small % as compared to the ones who have reefs and never read a book or visit these boards, and all the reef tank owners in the world are a very small % of the people who are destroying the reefs.
One last point, if we cant stop run off etc... in Fla, how do we expect to stop it in someone elses country?
Steve

 

[Mabu]

A LFS nearby sells "aquacultured" rock from Florida I believe and it is awesome - almost completely covered with corraline algae, clams, corals, sponges, etc. It is better than anything I've gotten from Fiji or elsewhere and every piece of rock in my aquarium is hand-picked.

 

[suckair]

Well it is juts rocks.. I often go half & half and within six months it is awsome rock.. I love to throw rocks in the sump and get free LR over time..


Even crap rocks looks totaly awsome in 12 months!

I would go cheep even get some dead rock "dry reef rock" as bsae rock.. In the end it will be better than anything you could purchase.

IMO

Thanks
Randall AKA Suckair

 

[cgbexec]

Steve,

I know of a couple of aquaculture companies that ship wet. This is much heavier to ship. The Figi and other rock taken from various other parts of the world is shipped dry. There are a couple of resons for this. The shipping time is tremendous from these 3rd world countries and even if they did keep it under water, the life on it would probably die anyway, just due to the time in a box. They could ship it faster wet and change their collections methods to keep it wet, but then you would be paying $30.00 or more a pound. People would probably not pay this so they ship it dry to save money. My other point is that we are so worried about one tang but the destruction of the reefs due to live rock harvesting is ok and we support it. Like I said, I'm in this hobby and it is good that we care about our animals and try to teach others to care as well. I believe that in the next 10 years narural live rock havesting will be banned as I believe it should. I'm not a complete tree hugger, as I kill and eat fish on a regular basis. I also collect my own fish for my tanks. I just think the destruction of the reefs is an important subject, and one that can not regenerate as fast as a population of fish. This is just food for thought.

Chris

 

[SPC]

Chris, could you give me a name of one company that ships aquacultured rock wet, not damp but submerged? I didn't realize that anyone does this and would be interested for my next purchase.
The true facts about the destruction of the reefs does not involve the hobbiest who purchases live rock. It is well documented that the main reason for the loss of reefs are other factors. I have never read a study that says the reefs are being destroyed because of the collection of live rock. Now, dont get me wrong, I do realize that a certain % of the reefs are damaged by this practice, my contention is that it is a very small % and wouldn't even be noticed if it were not for the main factors leading to reef destruction.
Steve