How do I do a closed loop for Sea Swirls?

[Anonymous]

Ben recommended that I use a closed loop with Sea Swirls to create current in the tank. I'm not much of a plumber, could someone recommend a good way to do this? The tank will basically look like this, to help give you guys an idea:

http://www.boombatta.com/images/tank01.jpg

I want this tank up against a wall, so piping behind the tank isn't wanted. I would like to run all piping up the overflow chamber, even if it needs to be a wider column that is seperated from the main overflow. At the top of the tank I'd like the piping to emerge from the overflow and do something like this:

http://aquarium-design.com/tank/images/jensen05.jpg

The real question I need answered is how to get water to the pump that controls the sea swirls? Should I just run it through a T on the main overflow? Any suggestions appreciated. Examples would be nice too.

 

[Anonymous]

C'mon guys, somebody has to know how to plumb one of these closed loops.

 

[esmithiii]

Don't plumb it into a T on the overflow line. The overflows can't handle the overall volume, and you will end up starving the sump.

If you plumb it behind the tank and use 1.5" ID PVC then you will only be 2" off the back wall. BTW the sea swirls stick out more than 2" off the back wall anyway, so it won't be a problem.

E

 

[Anonymous]

i wasn't planning on having them on the back wall though, I was planning on retro-fitting them to the sides. Look at the second pic in my first post. Something like that.

What if there was a second hole drilled in the overflow that went to the circulation pump?

 

[amber]

This is amber's husband, chief plumber, electrician, etc. Since you are going to put the sea swirls on the sides( I assume 2 of them)like the second picture, you can plumb the returns thru the tee as shown in pic 2. You do not say what size sea swirls so I assume they are 1/2". You should use a pick up in the tank using at least a 3/4" pipe, maybe 1". Drill a lot of 1/4" holes in it and cap the bottom. Run the pipe up from the bottom of the tank, over the edge with fittings and down to the pump under the tank. Return line back up to a tee and then to the sea swirls. The pick up tube needs to be in the tank to provide the closed loop. Also, the length of piperuns from the tee to the sea swirls should be as equal as possible or else the flows will be different due to pressure losses.

 

[Anonymous]

Amber's husband:

Here is a drawing I made of the plumbing at the top of the tank.

http://www.boombatta.com/images/currentloop01.jpg

My drawing isn't to perfect scale, the tank is a little longer when viewing from the front than it is from the side, so the Sea Swirls don't directly block out the MH lights.

The only thing really in question is how the water gets to the separate pump used to power these Sea Swirls. I'm trying to keep the pipes inside the tank or inside the overflow itself, and not behind the tank. Going behind the tank means that I can't have the tank up against the wall. It is fairly important that the tank be flush against the wall.

I plan on using the 3/4" Sea Swirls.

Can I have another hole drilled inside the overflow that goes directly to a pump used for the Sea Swirls? I can't really think of a reason it won't work, but something tells me to get the opinion of an expert first.

 

[esmithiii]

Here is the problem:

You only have two holes in the bottom of your tank. Both holes are in the overflow box. One is the overflow hole which takes water from the overflow box to the sump. The other is the return hole which is for water that is being pumped from the sump to the tank.

The hole for the overflow is generally larger than the hole for the return. If you plan on plumbing the intake for the closed loop through the overflow box, you still only have two holes through the bottom of your tank and you need four! You need two holes for the closed loop (one for intake to the pump, the other for output from the pump to the sea swirls) and two holes going to and from the sump. If you plan on using a couple of T's, then you will have major problems since the holes in your tank will not have the capacity to handle the overall volume, not to mention pressure problems between the sump and closed loop.

Ernie

 

[esmithiii]

BTW-

In the photo in the link you provided (http://aquarium-design.com/tank/images/jensen05.jpg) you will notice that they plumbed the closed loop through the back wall. Note the second hole. That is where the intake line will go, they just have not installed it yet.

I doubt that you have enough room in your overflow box to drill two more holes. Remember that you will need four holes. There is no way around that unless you can go over a tank wall somewhere, which you can't since the tank is to be flush against the wall.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the help guys. Keep in mind this tank is not made yet. I can make the overflow as large as I need with as many holes as I want. The reason I want the return and the sea swirls on top of that is for extra current. I don't think the sea swirls alone T'd off from the return would be enough for this tank. Remember, this tank comes to 150g with these dimensions.

As of now, the store that is giving me a quote for the tank is going to drill 3 holes in the overflow bottom. 1 hole to fit a 1.5" bulkhead that flows to the sump, and 2 holes to fit 3/4" bulkheads. One of those is the return, and one is the sea swirl loop. The problem with this setup is that I only have one hole bringing water out of the tank, and two large pumps blasting it back in. I think that a 4th hole is needed. Another 3/4" hole that leads directly to the Sea Swirl pump. Both pumps on this system will be external pumps, probably Quiet Ones or Iwakis.

So now I have 4 holes needed in the overflow. Keep in mind I can have the overflow built as large as I want, since this tank is custom and nothing has been built yet.

 

[Anonymous]

John G,

Holy crap, that setup on that guy's tank is awesome. I hope to have something this organized on my tank.

 

[John G]

Not to beat a dead horse - I guess I just don't understand why you needed a 4th hole in the overflow bottom?? If all water is going/comming from one sump/two pumps you should only need three. One to the sump and two for each return line from the two pumps. Or am I missing something?!?!?!

 

[Cappuccino Bay Aquarium]

I too believe that only three holes are needed and in fact one two inch hole will have better flow than two one inch holes.. Also we have found that on a closed loop, for circulation.....the less water overflowing .the less splash noise? Our four thousand gallon ciculation pumps the intake is in the tank .so the water does not overflow in the likewise named box. This makes what was a crashing waterfall sleepless night--- a silent night{noel} Also the amount of water the sump needs to hold when pumps are off is greatly reduced? and the output of the pump is greater being that there is no head{less height} YOU ACTUALLY LIVE ON THE ISLANDS? COOL Also the intank intake can be in a false over flow, one half of the original overflow ..so it looks the same

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: Cappuccino Bay Aquarium ]</p>

 

[Anonymous]

HAHA, no I don't live ON the islands.

I live in Channel Islands Harbor, or Silverstrand Beach as its called.

The reason for the 4th hole is this: I've noticed that a lot of people have their current pumps on their own line. Meaning it doesn't share sump water. It goes from the tank to the pump to the tank, etc. This is what I was hoping for. I would be happier with this loop taking water from the middle of the tank somewhere instead of the overflow to reduce splashing in the overflow, but I REALLY need this tank to be up against the wall. There will be no room for pipes or any plumbing behind the tank. If all else fails, I can move it away from the wall on the SIDE and have the piping to that side. Kinda ugly though.

 

[Derek]

For a closed loop you could drill 2 holes in the bottom of the tank at the back. One for suction one for return. Then you could run your pvc anywhere in the tank. I have done this and the only down side is you have to cut holes in the top of the cabinet that match the tank. If you have an acrylic tank it is pretty straight forward.

Derek

 

[esmithiii]

JohnG,

If he uses three holes with only one going to the sump then it is not a "closed loop." By definiton a closed loop is a circuit that sucks water from the tank directly into the pump which then returns under pressure to the main tank. A system that uses a sump uses a pump to drive water up from the sump where it "overflows" into a box with a pipe that leads back to the sump.

The benefits of a closed loop are:

1st the pump does not have to have to overcome gravity as it would in a system pumping up from a sump. This is because the downward motion of the water coming into the pump cancels out the pressure loss needed to return to the tank. In other words, use the same pump to return from your sump or on a closed loop and the flow will be MUCH MUCH higher on the closed loop.

2nd most people's overflows aren't capable of handling enough flow. There are several things that affect overflow capacity. The space between the "teeth" of the overflow are many times a limiting factor. The tube diameter of the tubing leading to the sump can also be a limiting factor. Most holes drilled into the tank for the overflow line are a fixed size coming from the manufacturer. Making the hole larger is no easy task.

3rd many people want to limit the flow through the sump. If you have a refugium, for example you might want to limit how much water goes through the sump. A closed loop is a convenient way to do this without adding powerheads. You can use an external pump which is usually more efficient and puts less heat into the water.

Chris,

To do this right I would do the 4 holes, 2 for the overflow to the sump and return and 2 more for the closed loop. You have several options on how to do this:

1st make the overflow large enough to handle the flow for both. Use two standpipes in the overflow as intake- one to the sump, the other to closed loop. One return line coming from the sump would come out as in your drawing. the second return line would come up and out to a T that then goes to your sea swirls.

The second option uses a u-shaped tube made w/ 2 90 degree elbows to suck water out of the tank directly. This option will lower the flow through the overflow. See the diagram:

]

The pink pvc comes from the pump, the yellow goes to the pump.

Man, my wife is right: I do have too much time on my hands! (I am on vacation!)

E

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: esmithiii ]</p>

 

[esmithiii]

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: esmithiii ]</p>

 

[Anonymous]

Hmmmm, I like the idea with the pipe to reduce the flow into the overflow. That could also work with a hole drilled into the side of the overflow column that runs into a pipe that leads to another hole drilled into the bottom of the tank. Like this:

http://www.boombatta.com/images/drilledoverflow01.jpg

 

[esmithiii]

That would work too.

Good luck.

E

 

[LINK]

If the tank hasn't been purchased yet, (and I am assuming that the Return pump hasn't either), why don't you just get a more powerful return pump, and run it to two sea-swirls? That way you can very easily get the exact amount of flow that you want by getting the right pump for the amount of flow and head.

 

[esmithiii]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

If the tank hasn't been purchased yet, (and I am assuming that the Return pump hasn't either), why don't you just get a more powerful return pump, and run it to two sea-swirls? That way you can very easily get the exact amount of flow that you want by getting the right pump for the amount of flow and head.

You may want to re-read the previous reply on the benefits of closed loop systems. There are plenty of very good reasons why you wouldn't want the entire flow going through the sump. If you plan on having a DSB in the sump and you want high flow in the main tank for SPS, for example.

E