Spontaneous generation?? Where does the nitrifying bacteria

[Anonymous]

yeah, I've never read anything that addresses this. Now, I've got a beginning laymans understanding of the nitrogen cycle. My question is- how does the nitrosomanas and nitrobacter get into the tank? Apparently, they just spontaneously generate from the presence of ammonia. Has the ghost of Lamarkianism found an undereducated victim to confuse? Help me fellow reefkeepers.

Can anyone share any knowledge?
Thanks in advance,
po

 

[FishDaddy]

Hey Po,
These bacteria are virtually everywhere, even if in small quantities. Live Rock and live sand are going to contain quite a few of them that are already feeding off particles of organic matter. They can even get into the tank on dust particles, though I wouldn't count on airborne dust to jumpstart a tank!

These bacteria can multiply quite rapidly, given good growing conditions and a food source.
Dick

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the quick reply FishDaddy

The dust option must be what accounts for the FW tanks i used to set up with no LR, just a few bags of gravel and treated tap water. and time of course.

wow.

I'm just really obsessing on this right now. Because, that would mean that those bacteria have to be really, really tiny to float in on dust. And it's a gigantic number of them that makes it possible to keep this little 'slices of the reef' in acrylic boxes in our houses. that's amazing isn't it? and wouldn't it also mean that the bacteria can live and eat in dry environments? or would they enter a stasis in the absence of water? wow.

anybody else got any insights into this bacteria?

 

[Anonymous]

I'm sure it's probably already in the water. At least in the case of FW.

 

[Mouse]

Yea Pojonny, the must be real tiny. Infact were probably coverd in the little guys. yuk.

 

[Carpentersreef]

po,
They even live in the rockwork of buildings.

Check out the little ammonia chompers.

Mitch

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: Carpentersreef ]</p>

 

[[email protected]]

A few years ago there was an article originally published in the Journal of Applied and Enviornmental Microbiology entitled: Comparitive Analysis of Nitrifying Bacteria associated with Freshwater & Marine Aquaria. In their study, they concluded that Nitrosomas and Nitrobacter do not drive the nitrification process in freshwater aquaria. They also said that Nitrobacter is not even present in saltwater aquaria.

 

[Anonymous]

Did they say what did??

 

[[email protected]]

They discussed carbon & nitrogen energy cycling, where microbials metabolized nutrients chemically on the cell level by manipulating covalent bonds between atoms of a molecule. I haven't seen any recent information on the subject, but I must admit I haven't looked for it either. I believe the point made from their findings was that a closed system should be in chemical balance, without having too much nutrient input that could upset the energy cycling.

 

[FishDaddy]

There have been recent discussions about whether we have been correct in naming Nitrosomas and Nitrobacter as the germs responsible for the Nitrogen cycle. Apparently, bacteria do indeed, drive the process; we've just had them mis-identified.

Here are 4 articles by Timothy Hovanec, discussing his research and findings:
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1998/june/science/default.asp
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1998/aug/science/default.asp
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1998/mar/science/default.asp
http://www.petsforum.com/marineland/matt'supdatedsite/AFM%20Articles/10yrfiltration.html

Here are a couple of important quotes from Dr. Hovanec's articles:

"What I actually found was that Nitrosomonas europaea does oxidize ammonia and Nitrobacter winogradskyi does oxidize nitrite — they just don’t seem to be present in freshwater aquaria. Further, there are those who think I was just plain wrong...but that’s another story.

".........fact is the bacteria that have been resposible for nitrification in aquaria are the ones that have been doing it all along -- we’ve just been calling them the wrong names. However, the names of the actual bacteria should now be used when discussing nitrication in aquaria. Unfortunately, I have not yet postively identified the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria so I can’t give you the name to use. However, the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria are members of the genus Nitrospira, which is in the phylum Nitrospira and this is the name that should be used to identify them."

And a more recent one by Dr. Ron Shimek, who cites Dr. Hovanec's articles.
http://www.oceanrider.com/fenner.html

So, Nitrospira is the Nitrate oxidizer and we don't have a positive ID for the Ammonia oxidizer, according to Hovanec.
Dick

 

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the updated material. I believe it was Hovanek who wrote the original article I was referring to. So much unclear nomenclature for bacteria that have been around for millions of years.

 

[Anonymous]

Anyone know who's converting the NO3 to N2 and O2? I'm curious about them, too.

 

[Anonymous]

Another informative post FishDaddy

Thank you.

i'm gonna check the oceanrider link now. again, thank you.

po

 

[Carpentersreef]

Fishdaddy,
Not only are you an ever present source of helpful info over at The Reeftank, but your wealth of info spills over here, too!

Thankyou,
Mitch

(where DO you find the time?

)

 

[FishDaddy]

Thanks, Po and Mitch.

I don't really know all I understand about this stuff but I try.

Dick