is this really progress?????

[hossfly]

I've been a reef keeper for around 15 years with varying success on several different tanks. I started out with a 45 tall and an underground filter with a hang on wet dry. still the best tank I've ever had. used "trition bulbs" which were the best thing at the time. live rock was rated as "uncured" , with all the little critters and stuff growing on it and was right out of the ocean. "cured" rock was kept in a dark tank untill everything died off and then allowed to regrow. base rock was simply dead ,dried rock. We didn't add too much at the time in the way of suppliments , just fed any fish in the tank and the corals filter fed from that. also had what was called "filter feeder blocks". We used charcoal and chemi-pure regularly.
Now for my point, along the line. someone discovered you could use live rock in place of a mech filter and now you are told that it's a sin to use any mech filteration. you should never use a wet dry system and and suppliments are necessary in most tanks. lightning must be mh or equivialent and you should never,EVER use an underground filter at all. live sand beds are the only thing exceptable and it must be sugar sized. what we used to call base rock is now "uncured". cured is anything that has coraline on it and the wild stuff with all the critters is 3 times the price. (this used to be the cheapest around because all they had to do was ship it.) yet one thing has not changed. It always comes down to water quality. I have two "LFS" in my city and neither owner has a clue how to tend to reef stuff. if it isn't sold in a few days..it's dead. should I tell them their mistakes? not if I want to be welcome in their stores again. I still find bargains there.
Sometimes, I get on here and ask simple stuff just to see what the new ideas are and where the changes of view are heading.. I too listen to the newest ideas and give some of them a try, but most of the time. it's just a different point of view. I'm 51 years old and in my own reef experiences, I've had great success doing what a lot of you say should never be done. but I've also had major problems doing things everyone else is having success with. So have we really made progress with this thing or are or we just finding more "bells and whistles"? Isn't it really about just maintaining good clean water? a bacteria bed is a bacteria bed whether it's on live rock or bio balls. If it's working for you , I wonder if there is a need to change just to follow someone elses view? Of course if you've got problems (and we all will at one time or the other)..I'd never hesitate to ask and try something new. ...If you've been in this for a while, I wonder what's your thoughts on the changes through the years? Is it really a change or are we just rearranging the furniture?

 

[tazdevil]

There's no question things have changed. For one thing, it's proven theat, yes, w/d bioball filters are extremely efficient methods of dealing with waste. Too efficient, as they also have been proven nitrate factories. SO the recommendation is to use DSB's as a natural filtration method, and DSB's reduce nitrate naturally as well. You had said

a bacteria bed is a bacteria bed whether it's on live rock or bio balls.[*quote] Which is not true, as bioballs provide no means of nitrate reduction. The same can be said for UGF and canister filtration methods.

With DSB or plenum methods, you get away from the technology, and are using biology to do the work. That cannot be dissagread with. Also, IMHO, the "less technology, more biology" method of reefkeeping is cheaper, more reliable, and possibly healthier for the system.

I don't believe anyone has declared that the only way to keep a reef tank is to use MH lighting, it's just the preferred method.

 

[ChrisRD]

hossfly:

Although I'm not as experienced as you, I've been keeping saltwater tanks for about 12 years now. I've used undergravels, hang-ons, canisters, wet/drys, uv sterilizers, fluidized beds and protein skimmers (usually in some combination) for filtration over the years on my tanks or tanks I have setup for friends.

I think there are many ways to keep a successful system, as all of those methods did work. With that said, however, about 4 years ago, when I tried my first live rock system with just a skimmer and an oolitic sand bed, I realized in the first 6 months that it was the easiest system to maintain that I had ever owned.

I had excellent water parameters with much less effort than previous systems. Also, with all the additional life in the system, fish/inverts seemed much happier and healthier (maybe more natural food?). I had little to no more problem with ich and other diseases/parasites (I can only assume due to reduced stress?). Organisms would THRIVE in that system that I wouldn't even dare keep before.

So, in answer to your question, IMO, I think we've come a long way. I think we're doing things better and more comparable to how they occur in natural environments now than ever before. I think that's providing a better environment for our animals and less work for us. Win-win in my mind - just my $0.02...

 

[Anonymous]

you know, there is a LFS i see occasionally who is adamant that wetdry filters are the only way to successfully keep a reef.

my first discussion with him was on the phone some years ago when i was looking for the then new oscillating powerheads.

he told me they were "crap" and that i should buy a seaswirl return device.

i first asked why the PH were "crap" and he replied that he had never used them, that was mearly the verdict he had heard in the hobby and that he was not going to carry them.

he was correct, they are crap. but i will add, the last time i was in his store he was carrying them. go figure.

sorry, a bit of a tangent there. i told him i wasn't interested in the seaswirl device for i had no return to add it to.

"WHAT THE HELL DO YOU GOT GOING OVER THERE!" was his reply.

i explained that i didn't think a sump was necessary to succeed in this hobby.

"You need a wet/dry to handle the ammonia load, come down here and see what we're doing." he said.

i told him i was aware of what he was doing and not to expect me.

i was PO'd. it took a while to get over that, but it was stupid to carry a grudge over the methods of aquarium keeping so i put it behind me.

anyway the point i wanted to make here that i can't seem to get to is that this LFS has possibly got the best livestock in town. the wet/dry thing is his preferred method and anyone who sees his tanks could not argue that this method is inferior to another. i'm sure he works his tail off upkeeping them, but the results of his experience are awesome. it was good that i ended my one man boycott because i can now buy some of the coolest specimens in town.

i believe much progress has been made. many different means of reef keeping have been established, lighting is improving, refugiums are widely used providing food for our livestock, we've got oscillating powerheads (although they're crap), yes, lots of bells and whistles but many provide ease of maintenance and stability of the system. and no i don't think its all about water quality.

sorry for the length, i will exit now.

 

[LeoR]

hossfly:

Very good post.
I agree that various filtration methods are mostly rearranging of the furniture.
Though I've always used only rocks and sand (long before these methods were considered cool), those old methods you mentioned are alive and well in water filtration industry (an acquaintance of mine still makes a lot of money on bio-balls).

I believe that we have made some progress on several fronts, the main one being paying more attention to food.
Corals were dying until people finally figured out that they need food to survive (!).
I am not impressed by the current practice of simply throwing megawatts of light at the algae inside and let them fend for corals. Corals also have tentacles, but most reefkeepers do not seem to get the hint (or choose to ignore it because it is a hassle to babysit corals).

There are other improvements but, as always, every new good tip or practice is accompanied by new old wives' tales and bottles of "new and improved" fluff by the snake oil merchants.

I guess we'll keep sorting things out for some time to come.

LeoR

 

[hossfly]

I'm encouraged by these responses. I really thought some would dish on me just because I've questioned the changes recommended by so called "specialist" . Out of the many reef stores I've visited over the years, I can count on one hand and have fingers left over , the ones I really felt comfortable asking advice from. One guy even tried to sell me a clown trigger claiming it was reef safe. I found one store that I still drive 3 hours one way to see because he has wonderful stuff and he is a marine biologist. a little higher in price but generally worth the price and the drive. I hope I/ve not given the impression I am a know it all because I haven't a clue to a lot of things in this hobbie. I ,however, HAVE learned quite a bit and alot of it has been from mistakes made through the years. One of the things I was trying to get across is, if your system is working just as it is, why would you want to change it because someone has stated their way is the best and sometimes only way? If it ain't broke don't fix it. That said, if it is looking a little worse for ware, searce out the latest ideas and dont' be afraid to give some of them a try. I may be an old dog but I can still be taught a few new tricks.(just ask my wife of 30 years.LOL)

 

[tazdevil]

I think we'd all have to agree on the isn't broke don't fix it. Most of the times the suggestions are being made is to newbie's, or those that are tearing down/moving tanks. BTW, are you keeping corals? What type lighting and food are you giving them if so?

Oh, LOL on the clown trigger, then again, if a newbie gets told that, maybe not 8O

 

[naesco]

I think the major change is the existance of boards like Reefs.org where reefers can share their views and experience.
My LFS did not know what live sand was until a couple of years after discussion and success was revealed here.
The other major change is the attitude of reefers. It is no longer acceptable to 'experiment' with almost impossible to keep species and reefers listen. For example, new reefers are more knowledgeable about the necessity of larger,longer tanks for tangs.