bio Wheels

[Lonnie]

are Bio Wheels good or Bad? My LFS said that if I was running a power filter that I have to have a Bio Wheel on it. Now I've been told that I do not need one at all. So what is Good or Bad?????

Thanks
Lonnie

 

[Anonymous]

bio wheels are very good,
at converting ammonia into nitrates.

for a reef tank,
this is bad. :wink:

if a power filter is the extent of you setup, and you're going fish only, and you aren't gonna do liverock/sb for your filtration, (which is really the better way to go), then i'd say use a biowheel-at least you'll have some breakdown of ammonia occuring.but please consider going w/the lr route-far better, in the long run.

what are you intending to keep?

 

[goldenboy]

Well if you have a reef tank they are bad, as they become nitrate factories that produce so much nitrate that the denitrification procceses that you have in your tank, if any, can't keep up with it. and the high levels of nitrate cause your tank to be unhealthy. in the long run dsb and LR are far superior ways of filtration and make bio-wheels and such un-nessesary.

 

[Lonnie]

I now have a 10 gal nano 10lbs live rock and a 2" sand bed. I am going to do a reef tank. I have blue mushrooms, button polyps and pulsating xenia. and they are doing fine. the only problem I am having is hair algae.

 

[Anonymous]

Just a question. Are you saying that a bio wheel will create higher nitrates? Shouldn't the nitrate level be balanced by the ammonia excreted? (i.e. three fish should excrete the same amount of ammonia regardless of the method of filtration). I've heard trickle filters and power filters both referred to as "nitrate factories", but you can't create something if you don't have enough materials (ie ammonia). So xxx amount of food goes in, is eaten and xxx amount is excreted as ammonia, which is then coverted through the nitrogen cycle to xxx amount of nitrate which is dependent on the amount of ammonia produced regardless of the method of filtration. I will agree that live rock, deep sand bed, and a skimmer is the best way to go, from a biodiversity standpoint, based on the increase in habitat availabilty, but in the presence of regular water changes (to reduce the nitrates) shouldn't the nitrogen cycle behave the same? Or is it the tendency of power filters and trickles to trap detritus which slowly decays over time causing the need for ever increasingly large water changes to keep nitrates in check?

 

[Anonymous]

IMHO, biowheels are not to be put on the same "nitrate factory" list as trickle or other wet/dry filters. the difference between them is the biowheel doesn't trap significant levels of detritus or organics as its wet/dry competition.

i have had an experience with a tank i had in the past that i couldn't seem to get nitrates down to an exceptable level (small, young 55g tank without DSB). i added a biowheel that had been running on another tank as an experiment and nitrates did go down. of course this isn't proof, just one circumstance, but the reasoning seems sound to me. if there's no trapped organics, why would nitrates increase?

 

[Anonymous]

Just a question. Are you saying that a bio wheel will create higher nitrates? Shouldn't the nitrate level be balanced by the ammonia excreted? (i.e. three fish should excrete the same amount of ammonia regardless of the method of filtration). I've heard trickle filters and power filters both referred to as "nitrate factories", but you can't create something if you don't have enough materials (ie ammonia). So xxx amount of food goes in, is eaten and xxx amount is excreted as ammonia, which is then coverted through the nitrogen cycle to xxx amount of nitrate which is dependent on the amount of ammonia produced regardless of the method of filtration. I will agree that live rock, deep sand bed, and a skimmer is the best way to go, from a biodiversity standpoint, based on the increase in habitat availabilty, but in the presence of regular water changes (to reduce the nitrates) shouldn't the nitrogen cycle behave the same? Or is it the tendency of power filters and trickles to trap detritus which slowly decays over time causing the need for ever increasingly large water changes to keep nitrates in check?

Podman wrote:

IMHO, biowheels are not to be put on the same "nitrate factory" list as trickle or other wet/dry filters. the difference between them is the biowheel doesn't trap significant levels of detritus or organics as its wet/dry competition.

i have had an experience with a tank i had in the past that i couldn't seem to get nitrates down to an exceptable level (small, young 55g tank without DSB). i added a biowheel that had been running on another tank as an experiment and nitrates did go down. of course this isn't proof, just one circumstance, but the reasoning seems sound to me. if there's no trapped organics, why would nitrates increase

?

while the amount of nitrates producedis no greater w/a bio wheel, than with a dsb- the biowheel does not break down the nitrates, as a dsb does,so you end up with ever accumulating nitrates, as a result of the continually produced, and converted, ammonia-a dsb will reduce the nitrates into oxygen and nitrogen-in the anoxic/anaerobic zones.same thing occurs with a wet dry, or any other strictly aerobic biofilter-excellent conversion of ammonia to nitrates, with no breakdown of same.

podman-i think you may have had denitrification occuring somewhere else in the tank, at a pace that outstripped the biowheels production of nitrates.

hth

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with you but you should get the same effect by using a biowheel with a dsb. It doesn't matter where the nitrates come from the dsb will still convert it. Biowheel = live rock - biodiversity. Obviously you may have greater nitrate producing ability with live rock because of more surface area for the aerobic bacterias, which makes live rock something of a nitrate factory too. The important part is having something in the equation to deal with the nitrates (i.e. a dsb).

 

[Anonymous]

Rover wrote:

agree with you but you should get the same effect by using a biowheel with a dsb. It doesn't matter where the nitrates come from the dsb will still convert it.....The important part is having something in the equation to deal with the nitrates (i.e. a dsb).

absolutely!

Obviously you may have greater nitrate producing ability with live rock because of more surface area for the aerobic bacterias, which makes live rock something of a nitrate factory too.

not entirely true-while not (probably)as efficient as a dsb, the inner structure of live rock also presents a denitrifying environment, where the more passive exchange of water through the rock facilitates the anoxic conditions for the breakdown of nitrates, which is also why it's better than a wet dry, or a bio wheel. :wink:

fwiw-bio wheels are really amazing, in their ability to quickly metabolize ammonia-when i was working at a commercial hatchery, we made our own huge bio wheels-big steel cylindrical cages filled with black 'ping pong' balls, rotating slowly in the 'sump' of the hatchery, half submerged in the water-they handled huge loads, for their size, so it may actually be a good idea to run them in conjunction with a dsb/lr set up in a smaller tank, where an accidental overfeeding can have a proportionately greater chance of creating an ammonia spike-it will also ensure a high dissolved O2 level in the water, with the pleated cartridges exposing a large surface area of the water to the air as it turns

 

[Anonymous]

Another point about biowheels - I had one on a small FW tank for a while, and it would ocassionally get stuck. If this should happen when the aquarist isn't around to get it going again soon, parts of it will dry out and a portion of the biofiltration will be lost.

 

[ReefLion]

Rover, vitz said it right. You're thinking is basically correct, nitrate will only come from nitrite, and will be limited by that.

The issues beyond that are two-fold:

First, the availability of nitrate to denitrifying bacteria. There is some thought that if the nitrate is produced in outer layers of rock or top layers of sand, it is more readily available to the denitrifying bacteria than if it's produced in a biowheel or wet/dry.

Second, depending on your filtration, the amount of nitrite available for conversion is not constant. Some filters like cannister and trickle trap detritus before it can get eaten or skimmed, increasing the amount of available nitrite compared to systems without these filters.

Tim

 

[hossfly]

this argument will never be settled. I personally don't figure the difference between live rock handling the "bio load" and the "bio balls" doing the same job,except that eventually the live rock gets "stopped up" and the bio balls don't. it all depends on what is "in vogue" at the time. I've done it all these ways and see little difference in the long term except when I make the unpardenable sin of repeating that the best tank I ever ran had an undergravel filter plus the wet/dry, with protein skimmer. (under gravel is forbidden in reef tanks now in case you didn't know.LOL, i'ts just not done in proper circles) as for the bio wheel. one of my favorite stores is owned by a marine biologist and he has them on every one of his tanks and loves them.

 

[shalegac]

I currently have a whisper power filter on my 10 gallon nano. I only use the filter for 2 weeks on two weeks off. When the bag is out of the filter it doubles as a way to circulat water. It also gives me good gas exchange. That combinded with 14 lbs. of fiji rock and a bi-weekly water change has been efficiant, or it is at least for me. The debate continues with some success and some failure. Since the bio-wheels are cheap I'd say try it. If things don't work out, dump it. Experimentation is the key. While most people are extremly knowledgable on the board everyone runs there tanks differently. That is half the fun of the hobby. I've had many low points in a short amount of time. I learned from each one. Luckly when running small tanks the cost of failure is not as devestating as it could be. While you have a small tank you can afford to experiment. Good luck and keep us posted of your results. Full detail about the tank also helps.
Shaun

 

[Xphixer2]

For what it is worth, and to add my two cents, ....I had an emporer (sp?) 400 running on my oceanic 55+ along with about 85# of LR. The bio wheel was running while the tank cycled the first time and continued to run until the impeller seized. I had most of my "pods" reproducing in it, along with many sponges, or other misc white animals. Because the wheels were running usually by themselves without the associated floss, I think the nitrate bomb effect did not happen. I would on occasion run some floss/carbon inserts, just to polish the water a bit. I think mine acted more like a dark refugium for pods than anthing harmfull.. Rich

 

[Xphixer2]

:lol: :lol: :lol: Bio Wheels Rule!!!!!!!!!

 

[One Stoned Coral]

I hate to say it but I have had only good luck with my Bio wheels.( Eclipse 3 hoods). I have a 85 gal. with 130lbs of live rock and 4" live sand bed. Lots of Soft corals and 6-8 fish. Maybe a lot of the filtration is coming from the rock and the sand but i can still say I have never had a water problem. I change the filters every month and do a 25% water change. I have retrofited my hoods with 4 65 watt Power Compacts. I have had great sucess growing Leather corals and Xenia. I also like the fact of not having any hoses or tubing running outside my tank, no chance of spilling, or noise. Just my .02 worth.

 

[BROKER]

so it may actually be a good idea to run them in conjunction with a dsb/lr set up in a smaller tank, where an accidental overfeeding can have a proportionately greater chance of creating an ammonia spike-it will also ensure a high dissolved O2 level in the water, with the pleated cartridges exposing a large surface area of the water to the air as it turns

Is this not also accomplished with a sump/refugium? I understand that with larger tanks there is less chance of overfeeding or error but lets take my 50 gallon for example. I have 50+lbs of lr, 3-4inch sandbed in the main tank, 30gal ref/sump with 6inch sb w macros and a cpr skimmer to help absorb the excess nutrients. In my mind I consider this to be a smaller tank. Now I also feed my fish every day, corals weeklly and my refugium critters every so often. I also do weekly water changes but would adding a bio-wheel be beneficial? Has anyone added a bio-wheel + lr, dsb, refuge to a tank? In theory would I not be converting ammonia to nitrates to nitrogen more efficiently w/out the worry of overfeeding? As you can see I am always worried I am overfeeding.

 

[Anonymous]

vitz,

upon reading your post i realized that you must be right about the denitrification i should of thought that myself. i was thinking that there must have been conditions in the wheel that helped nitrate reduction. :?

thinking back i did have some phosphate- silicate magnet in the canister of that HOT pro magnum that had been in there for some months. possibile additional denitrification media? i think likely.

 

[Anonymous]

i am a little hung up on something else here.

someone somewhere along the way told me that the reason wet/ dry filters created elevated levels of nitrate in the tank was due to the accumulation of organics. is that in any way accurate?

 

[Anonymous]

i am a little hung up on something else here.

someone somewhere along the way told me that the reason wet/ dry filters created elevated levels of nitrate in the tank was due to the accumulation of organics. is that in any way accurate?

only in the sense that the elevation of nitrates is the accumulation of organics :wink:

i think there is a mild misunderstanding floating around hobbyists re:wet dry(though others have correctly explained the issue)-it's not that a wet dry creates extra NO3 that normally wouldn't be getting produced,
it's that it does not further break them down efficiently, as a denitrification filter also does,and since lr/dsb does both quite efficiently,the wet dry becomes an unnecessary item, and expense.

'organics' will accumulate in any closed system that they are introduced to on a continual basis,-there is no place else for them to go-skimming,water changes,macroalgae harvesting are a way of 'opening' the loop(exporting 'organics' from the system)-organics are also bound up to various inhabitants' tissues, through growth-while still in the system,they become very localized,so they affect the system as a whole, much less(why xenia harvesting is also a form of nutrient export)

BROKER wrote:

Is this not also accomplished with a sump/refugium?

yes and no-a bio wheel is more efficient at performing/facilitating gas exchange from the water column,imho.

I also do weekly water changes but would adding a bio-wheel be beneficial?

it's prob'ly not necessary-if your system is functioning well,don't bother.

In theory would I not be converting ammonia to nitrates to nitrogen more efficiently w/out the worry of overfeeding?

you would be lowering the initial production of ammonia,threby reducing the end amount of nitrates produced. :wink:

As you can see I am always worried I am overfeeding.

here's a guidline i used to give my clients/customers:

1)a fish's stomach is about as big as it's eyeball(look at the space of the body that holds all the organs :wink: not exactly true, always, but a good guidline, for feeding purposes)
2)fish, in the wild, have to burn more calories(searching) to obtain food in the wild then in your tank
3)fish don't have a hand feeding them in the wild-sometimes they go hungry, for a while :wink:
4)an underfeeding issue is easily corrected, while an overfeeding one can cause serious problems fairly quickly.

so it's better, in a sense, to start by intentionally underfeeding, and then correct the situation-you'll have plenty of time to do this :wink:

keep your feeding schedule the same, but cut the amounts in half.observe your fish-if they start to get a bit 'skinnier' slowly increase the amount of feedings(not the amounts of food-a fish can only hold so much at one time in it's gut :wink: ) if they still look like they aren't getting enough, thenslowly increase the amounts.

this will also ensure that your fish do the best job in searching for, and finding, the little bits of food that are invariably missed in the tank-which will also help keep the tank cleaner.

hth