We were "reef tank virgins" when we decided to set up our 55 gal tank. So we went to the LFS and bought a 55gal combo pkg. (Tank,stand,skimmer,salt,etc.) a pretty basic set-up. Always bought livestock, supplements etc. from them as well as my 12gal eclipse, (2) 30gal tank for our FW and all to go with that. Recently we've been talking about going to a bigger tank (aren't we all). Well I got prices from them on a 90gal AGA with overflows Tank only. They always try to sell a stand with a tank and tell you AGA will not warranty tanks put on homemade stands. This is not true. I went to a different place and found the same tank for $70 less. Now, were not rich by no means and would like to save were we can, as i'm sure we all would. Well, we've been battling a hair algea problem for the last few months, and we decided to go with a HOB refugium. They don't have the one we were looking for and I told him we were ordering it off the net. He didn't like that. He wouldn't answer my question, told me i'd have to talk to the maker of the product. This was last week. We'll they had a ecosystem HOB refugium in the store, approx. the same size as the one were getting. So why wouldn't he answer the question? Yesterday, my GF goes in and buys a Toadstool Leather, nice looking piece. This a.m. we go in and buy a Staghorn, another nice piece. So that's about $80 in the last two days. A little while later I go in and asked the girl working what she thought about dripping Kalk. About 2 minutes later the guy I normally talked to SWOOPED in and asked what was going on. He does this all the time and the girl don't like him. He wouldn't give anything in the way of advice, just told me if that's what you want we can get it. I said that will be all and looked at some other things. Then the guy comes over and wants to talk to me. Here we go! I'll make it short, because i've made this pretty long as it is. He was basically wondering why we've been asking so many questions but then buying off the net. He said we've been great customers and wanted to know what, if any the problem was. Well I complained after he wouldn't answer my question about the refugium lighting, well that got back to him and that's why he wanted to talk to me. Then I told him I found the tank for $70 dollars less somewhere else, and he replied something to the effect of.....Don't you think spending a little more is worth the advice we have been giving? That pissed me off! Then he mentioned that everyone is wanting to buy things off the net. Well, DUH, why wouldn't people. IT'S CHEAPER!!! I have half a mind to tell them to F@#% off and go elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, our tank would not be where it is today without them, and for that I thank them. But if you want me to pay way more than anywhere else just to get advice, Stick it where the sun don't shine! They best start selling on the net and lower there prices, it's the wave of the future, otherwise there going to go down. Ok, I'M DONE!!! Sorry so long, neded to vent. Thanks. I'd love to hear if any of you have any similar type of experience with your LFS. Thanks agian.
LFS Problems(LONG) Please read....
- Thread starter ereefic1
- Start date
Eeep, sorry you are having a hard time with you LFS.
About 7 years ago I bought my 90 gallon reef tank from a store called Reef Encounters. I spent so much time in that store that I felt like the owner was my friend. I would stop in and bring him and his family lunch and we would plan the tank I wanted.
When I was ready to buy, the owner gave me tons of "deals" on used equipment and even livestock. On delivery day he and his family arrive at my house, set up the tank, added water, added rock, added corals, added fish and left.
I do not have to tell you what happened.
And the worst part is, 2 weeks later they had closed the store completely. I had NO IDEA. You shoulda seen the look on our faces when we drove up and saw the store empty. LOL!
Come to think of it, you shoulda seen THEIR faces when Gabe and I showed up at the front door of their HOME. At the time it was it was deadly serious... but now looking back on it, its pretty comical!
We managed to save a few peices, and SOME of the fish, but the whole ordeal was a nightmare. Really, its a miracle we stayed in the hobby. Nowadays we own more books about fish than fish themselves.
Anyway, I wanted to COMPLETELY agree with you about the internet! On-line shops and information packed boards have made reefkeeping a much better experience.
I still visit my LFS if I need airline tubing or some other lil' thing that they can't mess up. =P But with web stores like Premium Aquatics or Drs Foster and Smith... who needs LFS's?
If you are lucky to have a quality LFS near you.. for gahd's sakes, support them. You are one of the privelaged few in this hobby.
About 7 years ago I bought my 90 gallon reef tank from a store called Reef Encounters. I spent so much time in that store that I felt like the owner was my friend. I would stop in and bring him and his family lunch and we would plan the tank I wanted.
When I was ready to buy, the owner gave me tons of "deals" on used equipment and even livestock. On delivery day he and his family arrive at my house, set up the tank, added water, added rock, added corals, added fish and left.
I do not have to tell you what happened.
And the worst part is, 2 weeks later they had closed the store completely. I had NO IDEA. You shoulda seen the look on our faces when we drove up and saw the store empty. LOL!
Come to think of it, you shoulda seen THEIR faces when Gabe and I showed up at the front door of their HOME. At the time it was it was deadly serious... but now looking back on it, its pretty comical!
We managed to save a few peices, and SOME of the fish, but the whole ordeal was a nightmare. Really, its a miracle we stayed in the hobby. Nowadays we own more books about fish than fish themselves.
Anyway, I wanted to COMPLETELY agree with you about the internet! On-line shops and information packed boards have made reefkeeping a much better experience.
I still visit my LFS if I need airline tubing or some other lil' thing that they can't mess up. =P But with web stores like Premium Aquatics or Drs Foster and Smith... who needs LFS's?
If you are lucky to have a quality LFS near you.. for gahd's sakes, support them. You are one of the privelaged few in this hobby.
i think all LFS need support and guidance. it is those that know the hobby well that should agree here. i hear complaints about the crappy knowledge being dispersed from our LFS while simultaniously hearing they are overpriced. we also want net caught fish and aquacultured stock but prefer them to be as cheap as the stock purchased from the poisoners and blasters.
we need to support those that are doing this well. the good LFS undoubtedly pays his help better than the guy in the warehouse at 'joeblows exotic depot'.
buying online is fine, IMO. we just need to spread the wealth a bit, eh?
i can sympathize with both sides in this story, i wouldn't want to put out my knowledge only to cut my own throat either. and then again, it seems the typical LFS owner that i meet is a different sort of fella as well.
ereefic,
if he is giving you good advice, and he conducts his business in a responsible manner, i tend to think you should support him.
we need to support those that are doing this well. the good LFS undoubtedly pays his help better than the guy in the warehouse at 'joeblows exotic depot'.
buying online is fine, IMO. we just need to spread the wealth a bit, eh?
i can sympathize with both sides in this story, i wouldn't want to put out my knowledge only to cut my own throat either. and then again, it seems the typical LFS owner that i meet is a different sort of fella as well.
ereefic,
if he is giving you good advice, and he conducts his business in a responsible manner, i tend to think you should support him.
I agree with Podman-
It seems like the store is overly sensitive about the issue - because it sounds like you asked about a product he doesn't carry and thus you found it elsewhere - however you shouldn't expect him to give troubleshooting info or service on a product line he doesn't carry and he shouldn't get bent out of shape when you buy a product that he doesn't carry. He seems to think the ecosystem product is directly comparable with the CPR product and thus felt slighted you went with the other. IMO they aren't and he needs to get over it because he seems to think this one incident (and it is one right?) occurs with every question you ask which ultimately will be his downfall with a lost formerly loyal customer.
It seems like the store is overly sensitive about the issue - because it sounds like you asked about a product he doesn't carry and thus you found it elsewhere - however you shouldn't expect him to give troubleshooting info or service on a product line he doesn't carry and he shouldn't get bent out of shape when you buy a product that he doesn't carry. He seems to think the ecosystem product is directly comparable with the CPR product and thus felt slighted you went with the other. IMO they aren't and he needs to get over it because he seems to think this one incident (and it is one right?) occurs with every question you ask which ultimately will be his downfall with a lost formerly loyal customer.
i won't even take the advice of local shops. i get all my info from local reefers and the boards. i am in the process of setting up a 150 gal, all components are either purchased online, used, DIY'ed or straight from the manufacturer. when i start buying livestock, it will be either from other reefers, online or from the one LFS i trust. this LFS is clean, well stocked, quarantines all livestock for at least two weeks in the back, and has good prices. not to mention the fact that the manager is a friend and members of the local clubs. also had some of us over for a weekend, went on a tank crawl, ate pizza, watched the blue planet dvds, etc. he understands that many of us will purchase off the net than from him, he also buys a lot of stuff online. if i would have listened to the other LFSs when i started in this hobby, i'd be keeping anemones under incandescent lighting, with trickle filters, and a tang, among other things, in a 15 gal tank.
It sounded like the LFS was the one with the problem. Yes good ones need to be supported, but they shouldn't act insulted and cut you off if they miss one sale. The reality is there is now more competition and the LFS therefore need to demonstrate even better service and cause a superior customer experience. If not...
I support 3 LFS to varying degrees. I also order off of the net. I expect and can stand a 15-20% premium at an LFS. I do not expect a 100% premium. One thing about the net - it makes it easier to know the market and comparison shop.
At the LFS I regularly see powerheads, Lighting systems, Calc reactors & Skimmers for double the online prices.
The 3 LFS I support have all been in business for years. I don't know how big a pinch they are feeling, maybe there will be fewer of them down the line. Maybe there are still enough people around that don't shop on-line. Getting questionable or biased advice will also make me less likely to tolerate higher prices or show loyalty (Just as poor on-line service will cause you to look for other online suppliers). For me, equipment sales at the LFS are becoming more of an emergency shopping experience. In an emergency I can stomach the much higher equipment mark-up.
I enjoy seeing livestock in advance and generally buy those (and food) at the LFS.
I support 3 LFS to varying degrees. I also order off of the net. I expect and can stand a 15-20% premium at an LFS. I do not expect a 100% premium. One thing about the net - it makes it easier to know the market and comparison shop.
At the LFS I regularly see powerheads, Lighting systems, Calc reactors & Skimmers for double the online prices.
The 3 LFS I support have all been in business for years. I don't know how big a pinch they are feeling, maybe there will be fewer of them down the line. Maybe there are still enough people around that don't shop on-line. Getting questionable or biased advice will also make me less likely to tolerate higher prices or show loyalty (Just as poor on-line service will cause you to look for other online suppliers). For me, equipment sales at the LFS are becoming more of an emergency shopping experience. In an emergency I can stomach the much higher equipment mark-up.
I enjoy seeing livestock in advance and generally buy those (and food) at the LFS.
i just have one thing i would like to accentuate regarding this.
if the aquarist buys all dry goods online then the LFS will raise prices on live goods and/ or shop for cheaper live goods and/ or shop for cheaper help to sell those goods... thus increasing the "bad" LFS experiences.
i think it is a good idea for us all to shop the different LFS and make conscientious purchases through them... at least every now and then :wink:
from what i can make of it, the LFS business is not generally the kind of business that one makes good money at doing. at least not a conscientious businessman anyway.
the attitude i hear often around here seems to project that these LFS owners are living high on the hog.
i know more than a few and can say that this is laughable.
they are not destitute, but they are far from what i consider "rich".
of course there are always exceptions to the norm.
i, for one, don't want to purchase all goods online. i have had some sour experiences that way too, and i feel that there is a definate need for the conscientious LFS if we are to solve these typical LFS problems and the more global problem that the environment is bearing across the indo-pacific.
But i love a good bargain as well :twisted:
if the aquarist buys all dry goods online then the LFS will raise prices on live goods and/ or shop for cheaper live goods and/ or shop for cheaper help to sell those goods... thus increasing the "bad" LFS experiences.
i think it is a good idea for us all to shop the different LFS and make conscientious purchases through them... at least every now and then :wink:
from what i can make of it, the LFS business is not generally the kind of business that one makes good money at doing. at least not a conscientious businessman anyway.
the attitude i hear often around here seems to project that these LFS owners are living high on the hog.
i know more than a few and can say that this is laughable.
they are not destitute, but they are far from what i consider "rich".
of course there are always exceptions to the norm.
i, for one, don't want to purchase all goods online. i have had some sour experiences that way too, and i feel that there is a definate need for the conscientious LFS if we are to solve these typical LFS problems and the more global problem that the environment is bearing across the indo-pacific.
But i love a good bargain as well :twisted:
Apparently a lot transpired with this store and I can only comment on what you've said here. Personally, I can understand the store owner's attitude on the issue of the refugium. I don't think it's fair to expect help or advice from the local store on purchases that you've made elsewhere, especially when you throw it in their face and tell them you're getting the product from a competitor. Why didn't you address your questions to the internet retailer? Didn't you trust their advice? Could you get a person on the phone? I'm trying to make a point. You may pay more at the local store because you're paying for the owner's time to answer questions; you're paying to be able to see and handle your purchase beforehand; you're paying for the convenience of returning your purchase locally if necessary; your paying for the potential help in installing your product. Try to keep these things in mind before bashing the LFS.
BTW, I neither own a LFS nor am I involved in a retail business.
Greg Schiemer
I'm one of those people that would rather shop LFS....Convenience factor, prefer to deal locally with real faces, etc. Especially livestock, food, but drygoods as well....If LFS has what I want ~OR~ offers service - Good/Current advice - research/work on their part to justify my paying the $$-adder they are going to have on their prices vs. what can be found online. Plain & simple - the LFS must add value in terms of service since they are almost surely not going to be lowest cost vs. online suppliers. I agree with Lurshy that LFS needs to keep the cost %-over to a reasonable amount. I'm not sure what that is....but it's not 200-300%.
Advice on something as basic as dripping Kalk? If they've got a problem with that, they need to get with the program (either they know and can't be bothered to talk with you, or they don't know and shame on them for not staying current with reefing....bad either way). If I have to do all the research, find out about something (e.g., MH vs. PC lighting), find a source,....and the LFS basically yawns (more than once). Well. They had their chance - I won't bring the specs/order to them so they can order it online then charge me 200% for the same thing....
But - think about this, reefer fans, where are you gonna get that spiffy new glass aquarium if LFS all go under? Not many available for shipping from online.... [All you acrylic folks - hush. Some of us can scratch things just looking at them. :roll: ] Be prepared to pay reasonable amounts more than online if the LFS is doing all the research & paying to have inventory sitting there on the shelf for when you wander by & want to look at it before buying.... I'm ok with the LFS having an in-store demo (so I can pick it up & see how it works, is the reflector weak/cheap, is the fan too loud.....) and then ordering me one if I want it (to be delivered in a reasonable time). Inventory costs, and LFS business margins don't support a lot of slow movers (does anybody's business these days?).
Hobbyists need to support the good LFS. They do exist. If your LFS is not quite up to par - encourage them. Tell them what you want. Point them at boards like this if they persist in pushing W/Ds for reef tanks. :wink: If they don't get the message, choose not to get what you asked about, continue to give blatantly wrong info - they can't complain if you buy online. YOU can't then complain if they don't answer your question about something you bought from somebody else.
Just my $0.02.....
Advice on something as basic as dripping Kalk? If they've got a problem with that, they need to get with the program (either they know and can't be bothered to talk with you, or they don't know and shame on them for not staying current with reefing....bad either way). If I have to do all the research, find out about something (e.g., MH vs. PC lighting), find a source,....and the LFS basically yawns (more than once). Well. They had their chance - I won't bring the specs/order to them so they can order it online then charge me 200% for the same thing....
But - think about this, reefer fans, where are you gonna get that spiffy new glass aquarium if LFS all go under? Not many available for shipping from online.... [All you acrylic folks - hush. Some of us can scratch things just looking at them. :roll: ] Be prepared to pay reasonable amounts more than online if the LFS is doing all the research & paying to have inventory sitting there on the shelf for when you wander by & want to look at it before buying.... I'm ok with the LFS having an in-store demo (so I can pick it up & see how it works, is the reflector weak/cheap, is the fan too loud.....) and then ordering me one if I want it (to be delivered in a reasonable time). Inventory costs, and LFS business margins don't support a lot of slow movers (does anybody's business these days?).
Hobbyists need to support the good LFS. They do exist. If your LFS is not quite up to par - encourage them. Tell them what you want. Point them at boards like this if they persist in pushing W/Ds for reef tanks. :wink: If they don't get the message, choose not to get what you asked about, continue to give blatantly wrong info - they can't complain if you buy online. YOU can't then complain if they don't answer your question about something you bought from somebody else.
Just my $0.02.....
Straight out of the AGA book:
"This aquarium is under warranty by AGA Co., Inc. against leaks or cracks due to defects in material or workmanship for 90 days or 1 year (depending on aquarium size) from the date of purchase. If the aquarium is found to be defective, the dealer you purchased it from is authorized to exchange it for a new one provided it has not been modified, damaged or misused. Dated proof-of-purchase must be provided.
THE WARRANTY IS VOID if the aquarium is not placed on a flat, level aquarium stand designed to support this size aquarium or if the aquarium is moved when it is not completely empty, or if it is used for other than its intended purpose"
Well, I see no mention of HOMEMADE stands anywhere.
Basically what they told me when I e-mailed them a few weeks ago was,
It is a good idea to keep a blueprint of the stand built along with material list so if there is a problem, they can refer to that.
I just emailed them again this a.m. to be more specific. I am trying to get a "yes" or "no" answer. Of course this may take some time. I have 4 of there tanks and have had no problems with them. It's a good tank.
This problem actually affects the entire pet industry. Mostly I think because many of the customer assume that you are doing it simply because you really like pets. People who feed their dogs ol Roy and then want free vet advice, or people who spend 15 minutes of your time to say, "thanks for your help, do you think Walmart sells that?" Imagine going into a clothing store with questions about an online purchase at a competitors site? Or stopping by a mechanics shop and spending thirty or forty minutes so you can go the local parts store and do it your self? But people who work at pet stores generally do care about pets to some degree, and are willing to stand around and talk, and give free advice. Many times it worth exactly what you paid for it, but many times yiu get a pretty good deal. I think in a small way the online dealers do prevent the LFS from growing and changing the way it needs to, in order to serve their customers and grow with the hobby. We are well aware of the online part of the hobby at my shop, and don't have a problem referring people to sites for special orders that would be faster or better than us doing it ourselves. But we are a full line shop and don't have to depend solely on the reefer for our livlihood. If we did our attitudes might be a bit different. But it's not just reefer thing.
You'd be surprised how many people actually bring the Drs. Foster and Smith Catalog into the store to price shop, ask questions about sizing and what not, and leave without buying a thing, while we know that they don't know what they are buying, or that what they have in the catalog is different and not what they need. But we can't do anything about it.
Glenn
You'd be surprised how many people actually bring the Drs. Foster and Smith Catalog into the store to price shop, ask questions about sizing and what not, and leave without buying a thing, while we know that they don't know what they are buying, or that what they have in the catalog is different and not what they need. But we can't do anything about it.
Glenn
As of today, this is what AGA is telling me, and I quote.............
"Hello Eric,
Yes we will warranty aquariums when on homemade stands. Since warranty issues
and homemade stands tend to be a case by case situation I can't list any
conditions. I would look at the materials used and dimensions of the stand.
The store might be acting in your best interest. They might not know we coverhomemade stands, there are aquarium manufacturers out there that will not warranty their aquarium unless it is on their stand.
I hope this helps and may you always have,
Happy Aquatic Adventures
<`))))>{
Best Regards,
Dawn M Zimdars
All Glass Aquarium
"Hello Eric,
Yes we will warranty aquariums when on homemade stands. Since warranty issues
and homemade stands tend to be a case by case situation I can't list any
conditions. I would look at the materials used and dimensions of the stand.
The store might be acting in your best interest. They might not know we coverhomemade stands, there are aquarium manufacturers out there that will not warranty their aquarium unless it is on their stand.
I hope this helps and may you always have,
Happy Aquatic Adventures
<`))))>{
Best Regards,
Dawn M Zimdars
All Glass Aquarium
there is really no necessity or reason to get into this sort of discussion about lfs vs mail order. Everyone realizes the differences, but keep in mind - the economies of scale are different, service levels, see before acquisition, rent, shipping, etc. All those are factors. To expect an LFS store to compete with mail order isn't realistically going to happen. If you want to stick to MO, then do so. IMO, utilizing their time/expertise/resources (whether useful or not) pseudo obligates you to give them business on those lines. It's an ethical issue more than anything else. If you don't want to pursue that avenue - then don't abuse the privelege. . .
Remember, these guys are in business for a reason and they need to run it like a business. Would it serve the hobby or you any good if they actually went out of business ??
Remember, these guys are in business for a reason and they need to run it like a business. Would it serve the hobby or you any good if they actually went out of business ??
They will try to match price if I can find it cheaper at another LFS. So when it comes time to buy, I will give them every opportunity to match the price, if they can't, I will get it elsewhere. If I do buy it there, I won't ask any questions.
If there going to carry products, then don't just carry the highest priced ones. They need to give the customer more of a choice. Not just "this is it"
As far as the tank warranty issue........They say they didn't know that. Well, if your going to carry a product, and you DON'T KNOW what the warranty really is, then you should be HONEST to the customer and not use it to there advantage to make more money. Tell them they should contact the maker of the product for more info. I feel like I was lied to blatenly for there benefit. That doesn't sit well with me. Maybe some of you folks are OK with that, that's your choice.
I don't want any company to go out of business, that is not the reason for this post. I do believe we need them. This store is not JUST a fish store, they have cat supplies, dog supplies, guine pigs, reptile, birds and all that goes along with them.
I know that there have been other people who have had complaints recently also.
I think this company needs to revamp there way of doing business. What worked 20 years ago, doesn't mean it's going to work today. Especially with the internet playing the roll that it does now. Businesses need to change, IMO. Or they WILL be in trouble.
Who knows, maybe they won't even sell me anything anymore. 8O
If there going to carry products, then don't just carry the highest priced ones. They need to give the customer more of a choice. Not just "this is it"
As far as the tank warranty issue........They say they didn't know that. Well, if your going to carry a product, and you DON'T KNOW what the warranty really is, then you should be HONEST to the customer and not use it to there advantage to make more money. Tell them they should contact the maker of the product for more info. I feel like I was lied to blatenly for there benefit. That doesn't sit well with me. Maybe some of you folks are OK with that, that's your choice.
I don't want any company to go out of business, that is not the reason for this post. I do believe we need them. This store is not JUST a fish store, they have cat supplies, dog supplies, guine pigs, reptile, birds and all that goes along with them.
I know that there have been other people who have had complaints recently also.
I think this company needs to revamp there way of doing business. What worked 20 years ago, doesn't mean it's going to work today. Especially with the internet playing the roll that it does now. Businesses need to change, IMO. Or they WILL be in trouble.
Who knows, maybe they won't even sell me anything anymore. 8O
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