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Mihai

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Hi,

Upon measuring my Ca and Alkalinity yesterday I got 4.2 and 420.
Ca looks good, Alkalinity is half of what it should be. I think I know how to fix it: add oly the alkalinity component of the two component additive, right? Do I need to worry about anything else (pH or other by-products since I don't add them in balance)?

Second question: what would make alkalinity go down (in time, say in 3 months) significantly lower than Ca? I have a DSB, can that supply the needed Ca replacing what my corraline algae are consuming? But shouldn't it also supply alkalinity? Stumped.

Thanks,
Mihai
 

leftovers

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try water change first - large water change(S) to bring everything back into balance.

then dose according to directions of your two part additive
 
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Anonymous

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what type of alk? that sound good for kh but low for dkh.
 

Mihai

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leftovers":2vbarlwp said:
try water change first - large water change(S) to bring everything back into balance.

Sure, that's the brute force approach. I was trying to finesse it :).
beaslbob":2vbarlwp said:
what type of alk? that sound good for kh but low for dkh.

dkh :-(

Thanks,
Mihai
 
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Anonymous

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My 55g maintains 400 ppm cal and 2.5 kh alk with no additives. I do use crushed oyster shells in a diy filter box though and they did change it from 250-300 ca and 4 kh alk. so my alk did raise after the ca increase. perhaps that has happened to you also.

From what I understand the alk part of the two part additives will raise the alk as will baking soda. If you do dose for alk than be sure to measure the ca as well as the alk as the CA can go down.

Or you can just leave it there as I did. I don't have a big explosion of corraline but do have some sps that do seem to be doing fine.
 

Playdope

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I'm waiting on my Ca test kit to be shipped before I start dosing bionic (if needed) - but I was wondering something.. With all of this talk about Ca affecting Alk and vice versa, can I figure out my Ca based on my tested Alk value? May be way off here. :)

My Alk is 180 ppm CaCO3.
 

Fastmarc

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Playdope":1rrkbzw2 said:
I'm waiting on my Ca test kit to be shipped before I start dosing bionic (if needed) - but I was wondering something.. With all of this talk about Ca affecting Alk and vice versa, can I figure out my Ca based on my tested Alk value?

If you dose kalk you could kinda do that since it supplies both cal and alk.
Here is a site that has a cal/alk calculator.
http://www.kademani.com/reefchem.htm
 
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Anonymous

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beaslbob":3nqnilfz said:
My 55g maintains 400 ppm cal and 2.5 kh alk with no additives. I do use crushed oyster shells in a diy filter box though and they did change it from 250-300 ca and 4 kh alk. so my alk did raise after the ca increase.

woops meant my alk did lower after the cca increase.

sorry. As I understand it ,there is an interplay with cal, alk and mag. Best thing to do is get the ca kit. No rush, my ca was low for over a year. so you can wait a month or so. Or have someone measure the ca.
 

Mouse

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My 55g maintains 400 ppm cal and 2.5 kh alk with no additives. I do use crushed oyster shells in a diy filter box though and they did change it from 250-300 ca and 4 kh alk. so my alk did raise after the ca increase. perhaps that has happened to you also.

2.5Kh, are you having a laugh, thats lower than my Softwater Amazon tank (4 Dkh). you should be pullin at least 8, thats DkH

With no additives your Oyster shells would have been adding the only buffering in your system, Man, it even comes out of the tap at round here at 7DkH. Your lucky you had Oyster shell or id suspect a Ph crash for you.

Upon measuring my Ca and Alkalinity yesterday I got 4.2 and 420.
Ca looks good, Alkalinity is half of what it should be. I think I know how to fix it: add oly the alkalinity component of the two component additive, right? Do I need to worry about anything else (pH or other by-products since I don't add them in balance)?

Ok, chemistry 101. Ph is actually a total of your Gh and Kh, or General Hardness and Carbonate hardness. These in combination buffer the water and stabalise the Ph at a given level, in this case an alkaline solution rather than an acid (allthough your getting very close)

Your Kh will have a direct effect on the Ph, for example, a Dkh of about 4.0 will have a Ph of about 8. If you lower the Kh the Ph will also lower.

From my expirience the Gh has little or no affect on Ph.

I wouldn't waste your 2 part additive by only using one part of it, keep it for the dosing it suggests and get some Kent KH+, or just use baking soda. This way you wont end up with just one of the two parts left over.

Second question: what would make alkalinity go down (in time, say in 3 months) significantly lower than Ca? I have a DSB, can that supply the needed Ca replacing what my corraline algae are consuming? But shouldn't it also supply alkalinity? Stumped.

What would make the alkalinity go down, well that would be a process of either precipitation or use by all the stony corals/corraline algie you have growing.

And with the kind of levels you have it wouldn't take very much, the higher it is, the more buffering potential there is, the more it will need to shift it.

The Ca or calcium content is only supplied in your case when the Kh is used up, lowering the Ph to a point low enough to actually disolve the sand bed. This is good if it happens to be the inside of a calcium reactor, but bad if it happens to be in the system.

This could be why you have such a high calcium content but such a low Kh. Because your low Ph (a result of low Kh) is disolving the sand, raising calcium levels, while giving you a relatively low Kh. I would dread to think what your Ph is.

I dont see why the sand would supply you with Kh, maybee Gh but not Kh. Ca, or calcium yea, because its arragonite, but not Carbonate hardness, maybee a little general hardness.

I really dont understand why you would expect your sand to fullfill both your buffering and calcium requirements. Sounds to me like youve been listening to someone who doesn't actually have a clue what their talking about. I suggest you buy a book that explains all of this in full, as your information is dangerously incorrect, even your questions are a little arse about face.

Man youve even got me confused now.

The sand really should be there as a buffer, and a final one at that, a last resort to avoid a Ph crash. Instead you seem to be relying on the low Ph, Kh of your system to disolve the sand to raise Ca. You have basically turned your tank into a very slow calcium reactor.
 
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Mouse":1j5hjh41 said:
My 55g maintains 400 ppm cal and 2.5 kh alk with no additives. I do use crushed oyster shells in a diy filter box though and they did change it from 250-300 ca and 4 kh alk. so my alk did raise after the ca increase. perhaps that has happened to you also.

2.5Kh, are you having a laugh, thats lower than my Softwater Amazon tank (4 Dkh). you should be pullin at least 8, thats DkH

With no additives your Oyster shells would have been adding the only buffering in your system, Man, it even comes out of the tap at round here at 7DkH. Your lucky you had Oyster shell or id suspect a Ph crash for you.

According to one source 2.8 is the conversion factor between kh and dkh. So at 2.5 leg/l I am at about 7. close enough. And my calcium did go from 250-300 to 400+. Just before lights out ph has remained at 8.4 for over a year. And a similiar system with no oyster shells has remained at 250-300 ca.
Upon measuring my Ca and Alkalinity yesterday I got 4.2 and 420.
Ca looks good, Alkalinity is half of what it should be. I think I know how to fix it: add oly the alkalinity component of the two component additive, right? Do I need to worry about anything else (pH or other by-products since I don't add them in balance)?

Ok, chemistry 101. Ph is actually a total of your Gh and Kh, or General Hardness and Carbonate hardness. These in combination buffer the water and stabalise the Ph at a given level, in this case an alkaline solution rather than an acid (allthough your getting very close)

Ph drops in the presence of carbon dioxide. By just before light off ph rose from 7.4 to 8.4 with the addition of 8 4" gracillaria bushes to the display. And has remained at that level for over a year. Prior to that I buffered with baking soda. Just before lights off ph would raise to 8.2-8.4 the day after adding the baking soda. But a week later the ph was back down to 7.4 again. The plant life consuming the carbon dioxide way more effective in maintaining that system. PH was just the symptom.

I am not worried about a ph crash.
 

Mouse

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I am not worried about a ph crash.

ok, i wouldn't be either.

According to one source 2.8 is the conversion factor between kh and dkh. So at 2.5 leg/l I am at about 7. close enough.

ok, now i see what your talking about 2.5Leg/l, never heard of that incramentation before. Glad you have though, id say 7 was fine, allthough 8.5 (if its even the same in your scale) Dkh is what ive known as optimal.

Just about to head home from work, ill have another look at your post later if youd like. Seems your problems are not as elementry as id preveously thought. Sorry for teachin ya how to suck eggs bro, but you know sometimes people can be a bit 'misguided'. Sure someone could help, now we knoe what your talking about :D
 
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Mouse:

My system is heavily planted (various macros) and the calcium source has very good water flow through it. Therefore it seems to operate in a different manner that the more lightly planted, anerobic DSB type systems.

I just wanted to thank you for your very positive comments and feel free to add observations at any time. that is what boards are all about.

Bob
 

Mihai

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Mouse":12n0fvw3 said:
Ok, chemistry 101. Ph is actually a total of your Gh and Kh, or General Hardness and Carbonate hardness. These in combination buffer the water and stabalise the Ph at a given level, in this case an alkaline solution rather than an acid (allthough your getting very close)

That don't make no sense at all :). pH should be the percentage of H in raport to the percentage to HO. Alkalinity should be the amount of H that is needed to bring the pH to 7. I suck at chemistry, but that's what I got from the advanced aquarist's chemistry series of articles...
Correct? Wrong?


I wouldn't waste your 2 part additive by only using one part of it, keep it for the dosing it suggests and get some Kent KH+, or just use baking soda. This way you wont end up with just one of the two parts left over.

If it fixes my problem I would not call it a waste... you're right though: I should be able to use baking soda instead.

What would make the alkalinity go down, well that would be a process of either precipitation or use by all the stony corals/corraline algie you have growing.

No precipitation and the stonies/corraline should use equal parts of
Ca and Alk, right? My question is why the imbalance...


The Ca or calcium content is only supplied in your case when the Kh is used up, lowering the Ph to a point low enough to actually disolve the sand bed. This is good if it happens to be the inside of a calcium reactor, but bad if it happens to be in the system.

Really? How low does the pH have to be for the sandbed to disolve?
I have a "good" pH (8.2-8.3).


This could be why you have such a high calcium content but such a low Kh. Because your low Ph (a result of low Kh) is disolving the sand, raising calcium levels, while giving you a relatively low Kh. I would dread to think what your Ph is.

Wrong assumption: my pH is just fine (8.2-8.3), it's just my alk that is low. As a matter of fact all corals (including 4 types of sensitive xenias) are doing fine.

I really dont understand why you would expect your sand to fullfill both your buffering and calcium requirements. Sounds to me like youve been listening to someone who doesn't actually have a clue what their talking about. I suggest you buy a book that explains all of this in full, as your information is dangerously incorrect, even your questions are a little arse about face.

Well, the logic went something like this: if it takes both Ca and Alk to make the coral skeleton (the base of my southdown sand) both should be released when it disoves. Did I miss a point?

The sand really should be there as a buffer, and a final one at that, a last resort to avoid a Ph crash. Instead you seem to be relying on the low Ph, Kh of your system to disolve the sand to raise Ca. You have basically turned your tank into a very slow calcium reactor.

I don't know if it works as a reactor, I am just wondering what's the cause of my imbalance...

Regards,
Mihai
 
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Anonymous

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I think the gh+kh=ph is just a rule of thump as opposed to definitional.

Ph is the negative log10 of the hydorgen ion concentration by definition.

but then perhaps gh and kh are definded likewise. But I thought they had something to do with with different ions like calcium carbonate ions. Just the number worked out as above.


personal opinion: I always wondered how anything could be considered balanced when you have to dose or run reactors to keep them that way. To me balanced is when you don't have to do either. But then that is just me.
 

kim

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You might want to test your test kit (duff test kits are often the cause of a bad "news").

There are few ways to get out of balance.

One is to start out of balance (eg a duff salt mix, or duff water...not RO). Another is using iron based phosphate absorbers (they can drag down alkalinity). If you are using oyster shell, are you thereby adding phosphates and then running a lot of Rowaphos or similar to compensate ? Finally, duff additives !

Otherwise, calcium and alkalinity pretty much move up and down in parallel...10 ppm rise/fall calcium corresponding to a rise/fall in alkalinity of 1.4 dKh (equivalent to 0.5 meq/l). Hard to think of anything else that would mess this up.

Btw, there's some outrageous chemistry in this thread.

kim
 
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Anonymous

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Just in case this was to me:


kim":imy3d41u said:
You might want to test your test kit (duff test kits are often the cause of a bad "news").

it is the seachum test kit and the standard 400ppm tests right on (390-410ppm)
There are few ways to get out of balance.

One is to start out of balance (eg a duff salt mix, or duff water...not RO). Another is using iron based phosphate absorbers (they can drag down alkalinity). If you are using oyster shell, are you thereby adding phosphates and then running a lot of Rowaphos or similar to compensate ? Finally, duff additives !

The only filtering I use is macros and the crushed oyster shells. I do not conduct water changes and do not dose or use additives of any kind. The only thing added to the tank is tap water to replace evaporation and food.
Otherwise, calcium and alkalinity pretty much move up and down in parallel...10 ppm rise/fall calcium corresponding to a rise/fall in alkalinity of 1.4 dKh (equivalent to 0.5 meq/l). Hard to think of anything else that would mess this up.

Btw, there's some outrageous chemistry in this thread.

kim

I'm not going to worry about my system. It has remained stable for many months now.
 

Mihai

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Duff test is a remote posiblility: I also use seachem, and I heard that they are quite good. Everything else is even more unlikely: RO/DI water, IO salt, no aditives so far (new tank - january of this year).

I agree with you: should get depleted in a balanced way, don't know why it didn't. Hence the initial question (and thread title).

M.
 
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Mihai":2svotlt7 said:
Duff test is a remote posiblility: I also use seachem, and I heard that they are quite good. Everything else is even more unlikely: RO/DI water, IO salt, no aditives so far (new tank - january of this year).

I agree with you: should get depleted in a balanced way, don't know why it didn't. Hence the initial question (and thread title).

M.

I have heard that low mag can cause ca to go up and alk down. You might test for mag.

the seachum test kit is great. especially when the sample tests at 400.
 

Mouse

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Mihai, gotta say, sorry for the lecture, at least now were speaking the same language.

The only thing that i can concieve is that your macro's are basically using the Alk to build tissue, as they do in Freshwater tanks, and being Macro's have a very small need for Ca. But judging by your latter posts i cant beleave you didn't come to the same conclusion, as you obviously know your chemistry (at a more accurate level than i do), i dont suppose youve kept freshwater planted tanks? I can tell you from expirience that a well running planted tank will depleat Kh on a weekly basis. Im just thinking that your heavy macro planting, and strong lighting (in terms of the macro's requirements) have caused this imbalance. Ive even heard of planted tanks with Kh+ on a dosing pump.

you say you dont do any water changes, which would lead me to belive that your ripping out macros by the handfull, is this a regular maintenance job on your system?

I would say its your macro growth, infact i remember a guy with a Sea Grass tank who had simmilar observations.

hope i have been helpfull
 

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