Great article ....BUT ...

[vapor1]

This is a great article review, but ....

It seems to me more of a tease. There is talk of buying tank reared marine ornamentals , but , there are no available sources listed . I buy tank raised , when I can get them , plus I am involved in the tradeing of frags to help cut back on the impact on the reefs .

If there were sources listed to purchase the tank raised flame angels would help alot towards getting more people to purchase tank raised specimens . I know I was all excited about the tank raised flame angels mentioned in the article and I was looking for info on where to get them . Untill, at the end of the article it was mentioned that they had decided to not offer them .

If someone is offering a tank raised alternative to wild caught specimens . it would help if they were to offer them to the reefs.org community or the reefcentral community to see if there were a market for them at the increased price .

Alot is mentioned about useing tank raised ornamentals ,instead of wild caught specimens in the different media . If they would list available sources , it would help alot towards makeing that possible. BUT without sources its just like someone beating a dead horse...it doesn't do any good .

Just my 2 cents

 

[aquaristics]

Hi

There's a detailed list of sources for aquacultured aquarium specimens in the Media Review column of May 2004. The column is based on Morgan Lidster's presentation at the previous MACNA.

Morgan tries to stock as many aquacultured species as he can find and is an invaluable source of information on the topic.

You can reach him at http://www.inlandaquatics.com

 

[wade1]

aquaristics...
:welcome: !

As to reared species, there are a couple of places that are doing larval rearing now... quite a few angel species are being raised by a group in Hawaii. Keep an eye out and dig around on the web and you can find them.

I agree though... a more comprehensive list (at least of the species available!) would really help those of us who try our best to minimize collecting impacts.

 

[spawner]

Didn't seem to be a very complete article. Title should have been more of an “Media Review: New Developments in Aquaculture of Ornamentals on KONA”, didn't even mention RCT work and ability to commercially produce many species of angels. Was this an oversight or intentional. What about Proaquatix's new fish or ORA's efforts???? What about the effect of the hurricanes on the supply of ornamentals????? Very incomplete and short sided.

As they thought, they could not compete with the price of wild-caught fishes. This is a great loss and an ethical stain on our hobby. The issue is not just to request aquacultured organisms from your LFS or even to actively encourage them to provide such stock, BUT TO SHOW YOUR COMMITMENT BY BEING WILLING TO PAY A PREMIUM PRICE FOR THESE SPECIMENS.

That is just the biggest load of dung out there. I don’t buy the huge pill of BS by Blue Water Farms that its not commercial viable to rear them. What he meant to say but an ego or something got in the way was they had a great success on one run, but could not repeat it, end of story. If they could have repeated the effort and had fish that looked decent they would have wholesaled out of LA for more than 37.50 a fish. Notice that they didn’t last to long on the price list. Nothing like a huge load of BS spin to confuse every one and waste people’s time. This was one big steamer.

One a personal note I think you could find a large number of people that would pay over 100 bucks for a captive flame or lemon peel. Look at Ocean Rider, several 100 bucks for a seahorse and she gets orders because they supply very nice large color animals. There is a market you just have to be able to supply quality fish to it and not a pile of steaming dung.

I would expect more out of this or future articles, I guess the caveat is “Media Review” It’s not worth confusing hobbyist, not need to spread falsehoods and misinformation to save ones ego, just be honest with them.

 

[delbeek]

Those are some pretty inflammatory accusations there "spawner". Since Mr. Robbins named the source of his information and put his own name on the piece, why don't you do the same? Please back up your ascertions by identifying your source(s). I am not saying your comments are untrue but please back them up.

I am very familiar with RCT and the fish they raise. Why do you think they do not offer flame angels for sale since they most certainly have and can raise them in quantity, if as you say, there is a market out there for this highly priced captive raised fish? I think you would be hard pressed to find captive raised flame angels for sale under the current methodology, for anything less than $200-300 at retail. Until the cost of producing these fish falls, the market for them will be limited and most likely could not support an aquaculture facility. Why else do you think that RCT has been concentrating on species that normally fetch $400 or more at retail?

Sincerely,
J. Charles Delbeek

 

[spawner]

I am not saying your comments are untrue but please back them up.

Of course my comments are true. There is nothing wrong with raising something like that once and having problems repeating it. Hat's off the them for doing it. Just wrong to put a huge BS spin on it and print it.

Why isn't KBF raising more pricey fish?? Hum.

Someone has to stand up to the BS and tell people the truth. It's not right to put stuff like that in a paper, when its known as not the whole story and publish it. All it does it set people's hopes back.

I for one was very excited when I saw them on QM's list. I figured Blue Water had figured it out, and we would have a supply of captive flames. My first impression was why in the world were they so cheap, $37.50 nuts. Its sure isn't because they couldn't get well over 60 bucks wholesale for them. Is that break even, $60 problably not, only person that knows that is Frank. Can you sell them for $100 of course you can if they look great and you sell them direct, can you make money who knows. Look at Ocean Rider, perfect example. She has been selling seahorses for big bucks long before CITES made the price go up. That is a perfect example of someone that is doing it right.

Point is that someone with initials after their name needs to do a better job and not publish BS. Be nice if this stuff was editied a bit better to keep it out of the aquarium sceen. It's one thing for a no nothing news paper reported to be goated into writing BS but its another for a Ph.D to print total BS, not matter if its "Media Review" or not.

Why else do you think that RCT has been concentrating on species that normally fetch $400 or more at retail?

Can you blame Frank, I don't care if it cost $1 to raise a fish, you'd be crazy not to sell the pricey fish.

I am not trying to be a total jerk here, that is not my point. I am HUGE supporter of aquacultured fish/inverts and I am personally offended when people publish junk like that. I am in no way bashing KBF for their efforts raising this fish but don't tell me the "offical story" wasn't a real stinker. I'll PM you my citations.

 

[aquaristics]

Why isn't KBF raising more pricey fish?? Hum.

They are raising more pricey fish and as fast as they can get them to market. If you had read the original article you would have noted that raising flame angels was part of a federally supported research project on foods for larval fish stages, often the bottle neck for rearing, and not their primary focus at all.

KBWF is currently selling "kamachi," a highly prized fish for the sushi/sashimi trade, with a market geometrically more lucrative than the ornamental market.

As the current Media article points out, Syd Kraul, an excellent hatchery man, has started an ornamentals aquaculture (Pacific Plankton) operation that will include atremts to raise commercial numbers of Flame Angels.

As for whether or not you sound like an idiot, as a psychologist - usually not of a Freudian persuasion - I would say your notes show an over use of language refering to excrement, indicating a possible fixation in the anal stage of development.

Doug R.[/quote]

 

[delbeek]

Can you blame Frank, I don't care if it cost $1 to raise a fish, you'd be crazy not to sell the pricey fish.

The point was, the effort required to raise these fish does not allow for the production of fish that can not bring enough on the market to justify the costs incured. This is the next step, to tweak the techiques, improve yields and lower production costs. Then again it would be in anyone's interest to restrict supply to keep prices up. If someone mass produced Centropyge boylei and put them on the market, that $5000 retail fish suddenly becomes worth much MUCH less. So what do you think happens as a result?? :roll:

The production of high cost seahorses is a niche market with enough people willing to pay the price. As to whether or not OR is doing well financially I can not say since neither I, nor I doubt you, have access to their books. Since just about every ornamental fish farm ever created since Martin Moe has had MAJOR financial hurdles, I would guess that things are not as rosey as you may think.

Until one has actually tried to run a fish hatchery and has tried to market and sell your product, you really have no clue of what the obstacles are.

Aloha!
JCD

 

[delbeek]

This is a great article review, but ....

It seems to me more of a tease. There is talk of buying tank reared marine ornamentals , but , there are no available sources listed.

www.rcthawaii.com

break out the credit card. ;-)