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Old Tank Syndrome: What's your thoughts?
- Thread starter liquid
- Start date
My longest running tank is a 65 gal reef that was first setup in Dec 99 and has gone through several "cycles".
A couple years back I had an explosion of anthelia that was threatening everything in the tank, now it is limited to a single rock and not exactly thriving. On the flip side I had a single mushroom for years that has turned into probably 100+ in the last 6-9 months.
I have had various types of macro algae be problematic in the tank (finally added a refugium to it this week). I have gone from harvesting the tough brown leafy stuff to caulerpa out of control now to halimeda which I harvest by the fist full along with all the calcium it stole from the water. There are still a few of the brown leafs, but I haven't harvested one in over 3 years. Tthe caulerpa died out completely. I also had a few episodes of bubble out breaks, but they keep themselves in check now too.
My pod population has varied as well. Look in with a flashlight at night and will you find a couple scurrying across the rock into the nearest hiding spot, but a couple years ago, you would seen hundreds of not thousands covering every bit of rock and gravel.
I have found that other creatures like worms mini brittle stars, snails etc can go through die offs and if you stop adding them back in via live sand, critter packages and new live rock, you will definitely see a decline in bio-diversity after the first year or two. Thats just from the creatures I can see. so I am sure the same thing is true of smaller organisms and bacteria that we can't see.
After the new fuge stabilizes and I get the mushrooms under control, I plan on a major rebuild that will involve replacing the rock in the right third of the tank with a whole new structure. I will probably rotate out a portion of the sand bed as well. I figure that should be enough to re-introduce diversity into the entire tank and keep "the cycle" going. I am also hoping that the sand and gravel beds in my fuge will maintain a more stable critter population that I can use to replenish the main tank when the predators wipe them out.
m-fine
A couple years back I had an explosion of anthelia that was threatening everything in the tank, now it is limited to a single rock and not exactly thriving. On the flip side I had a single mushroom for years that has turned into probably 100+ in the last 6-9 months.
I have had various types of macro algae be problematic in the tank (finally added a refugium to it this week). I have gone from harvesting the tough brown leafy stuff to caulerpa out of control now to halimeda which I harvest by the fist full along with all the calcium it stole from the water. There are still a few of the brown leafs, but I haven't harvested one in over 3 years. Tthe caulerpa died out completely. I also had a few episodes of bubble out breaks, but they keep themselves in check now too.
My pod population has varied as well. Look in with a flashlight at night and will you find a couple scurrying across the rock into the nearest hiding spot, but a couple years ago, you would seen hundreds of not thousands covering every bit of rock and gravel.
I have found that other creatures like worms mini brittle stars, snails etc can go through die offs and if you stop adding them back in via live sand, critter packages and new live rock, you will definitely see a decline in bio-diversity after the first year or two. Thats just from the creatures I can see. so I am sure the same thing is true of smaller organisms and bacteria that we can't see.
After the new fuge stabilizes and I get the mushrooms under control, I plan on a major rebuild that will involve replacing the rock in the right third of the tank with a whole new structure. I will probably rotate out a portion of the sand bed as well. I figure that should be enough to re-introduce diversity into the entire tank and keep "the cycle" going. I am also hoping that the sand and gravel beds in my fuge will maintain a more stable critter population that I can use to replenish the main tank when the predators wipe them out.
m-fine
Mihai":3ipn9w0s said:What time frames are we talking about? Mine is 1.5 years old and is clearly not old: it supports more life now than in the beginning.
M.
Usually 5 or more years.
If I remember correctly Bob Fenner mentioned about this problem in his "Conscientious marine aquarist". The "cure" he proposed was the periodic replacemnt of some live rock. He recommends getting some rocks out once a year and replacing with others. It may do the trick (introduce diversity) without being too destructive and require too much work.
I know far less than Julian about reefs, but I tend to agree with Bob in that what goes wrong in time is the reduction in biodiversity. I clearly see this in my tank even after 1.5 years: both detritivores and grazers become dominated by a single species that does very well (and probably has no predators), the others just vanish. The loss of diversity is even more accelerated in my 0.5 pico where most macrolife but the corals and a few pods are gone by now. If biodiversity is really the problem, swapping rocks may do the trick.
M.
I know far less than Julian about reefs, but I tend to agree with Bob in that what goes wrong in time is the reduction in biodiversity. I clearly see this in my tank even after 1.5 years: both detritivores and grazers become dominated by a single species that does very well (and probably has no predators), the others just vanish. The loss of diversity is even more accelerated in my 0.5 pico where most macrolife but the corals and a few pods are gone by now. If biodiversity is really the problem, swapping rocks may do the trick.
M.
Mihai":2zek8haw said:If I remember correctly Bob Fenner mentioned about this problem in his "Conscientious marine aquarist". The "cure" he proposed was the periodic replacemnt of some live rock. He recommends getting some rocks out once a year and replacing with others. It may do the trick (introduce diversity) without being too destructive and require too much work.
I know far less than Julian about reefs, but I tend to agree with Bob in that what goes wrong in time is the reduction in biodiversity. I clearly see this in my tank even after 1.5 years: both detritivores and grazers become dominated by a single species that does very well (and probably has no predators), the others just vanish. The loss of diversity is even more accelerated in my 0.5 pico where most macrolife but the corals and a few pods are gone by now. If biodiversity is really the problem, swapping rocks may do the trick.
M.
M,
Aside from biodiversity, especially within bacterial colonies there is the issue of growth in the population of fish. I'm willing to bet that the combined weight of my fish over the last 5 years has at least doubled, which has made it hard if not possible to retain a balance between producers of waste and consumers of waste. Also, coral growth decreasers circulation within coral branches, and so on. I doubt if adding some live rock, though helpful like water changes, will be enough to reverse the old tank syndrome trend.
It could be a combination - in this case the solution is not that easy as I hoped. Especially with the large fish/corals but also the maintenance problem... Perhaps a tank upgrade may do the trick (some new rocks, larger tank, new circulation, renewed interest).
M.
M.
Replacing some live rock occationally will correct a lot of the possibilities. It will add diversity, remove malnutrients, and possibly jump start the interest in maintenance as new critters are discovered. If a lot of corals were on the old rock it could even lower the bioload a bit and hopefully reshuffle the balance of power among the coral colonies.
I think this is a valid point.
Unless you export toxins like copper and other trace elements, They will slowly build up. That and the chemical warfare of the various corals may be sufficiently controlled yet still slowly build up over many years.
Plus the desire to maintain steady conditions as opposted to stable conditions, means that from my perspective, it is possible that most tanks are actually running in an unstable condition. Where any bump in the night caused a crash or at least some losses.
Yet the technologies that allow us to readily replace or recharge media are not in vogue. Like fluidized bed filters, and refugiums with plant life for instance. So instead often the only options is a complete tank tear down.
So we go along with buildups in our rock and especially DSBs, hoping skimmers remove everything, constantly adding calcium, alk and other not 100% pure additives, not to mention food that contains some small amount of nasties. With the hope a 10% water change will pick up the rest.
And things run fine for a few years then decline.
Unless you export toxins like copper and other trace elements, They will slowly build up. That and the chemical warfare of the various corals may be sufficiently controlled yet still slowly build up over many years.
Plus the desire to maintain steady conditions as opposted to stable conditions, means that from my perspective, it is possible that most tanks are actually running in an unstable condition. Where any bump in the night caused a crash or at least some losses.
Yet the technologies that allow us to readily replace or recharge media are not in vogue. Like fluidized bed filters, and refugiums with plant life for instance. So instead often the only options is a complete tank tear down.
So we go along with buildups in our rock and especially DSBs, hoping skimmers remove everything, constantly adding calcium, alk and other not 100% pure additives, not to mention food that contains some small amount of nasties. With the hope a 10% water change will pick up the rest.
And things run fine for a few years then decline.
I think there is such a thing as "old tank syndrome". I think that as time goes by, sandbeds and even rock accumulate detritus and this causes problems if rock and sand are not changed out for fresh.
When I removed my sandbed after battling hair algae by any and all means I could come across, there were layers of acumulated "mud" in it. I was very suprised to see that, but I believe it explained why I was getting elevated phosphate readings despite all the efforts I was taking to keep water very pure.
I have replaced 50% of the rock in my tank, and I see a big difference between the new rock, and the old rock, some of which is 7 years old now. The old rock always looks dirty, and has hair algae in patches on it. The new rock looks quite fresh after months in the tank.
I am going to make changing out some of the rock in my tank a part of my general routine, how much and how often I have not yet figured out.
When I removed my sandbed after battling hair algae by any and all means I could come across, there were layers of acumulated "mud" in it. I was very suprised to see that, but I believe it explained why I was getting elevated phosphate readings despite all the efforts I was taking to keep water very pure.
I have replaced 50% of the rock in my tank, and I see a big difference between the new rock, and the old rock, some of which is 7 years old now. The old rock always looks dirty, and has hair algae in patches on it. The new rock looks quite fresh after months in the tank.
I am going to make changing out some of the rock in my tank a part of my general routine, how much and how often I have not yet figured out.
I see this in freshwater tanks a lot more than saltwater, over time they have a hard time maintaining pH and have nitrate issues, usually at the 2-3 year point. A couple of large water changes usually takes care of it, but I would expect similar long term reactions in a marine tank as well. Seems that you should gradually be remobing and adding rock and sand regularly anyway.
Just a comment:
I wonder how many true Berlin (Bare bottom/skimmer) systems have the old tank syndrome...there should be more than enough net documentation and printed material to find aged systems like that with a good history of inhabitant trends. How common was OTS before the plenum/DSB trend? If one could find a Berlin system that had some element of Live Rock swapping, or at least a heavy washing/turkey basting of live rock on a regular cycle, I think one could begin to isolate detritus and nutrient accumulation as a major contributor to eutrophication and other physical shifts we attribute to OTS.
I wonder how many true Berlin (Bare bottom/skimmer) systems have the old tank syndrome...there should be more than enough net documentation and printed material to find aged systems like that with a good history of inhabitant trends. How common was OTS before the plenum/DSB trend? If one could find a Berlin system that had some element of Live Rock swapping, or at least a heavy washing/turkey basting of live rock on a regular cycle, I think one could begin to isolate detritus and nutrient accumulation as a major contributor to eutrophication and other physical shifts we attribute to OTS.
If by true Berlin system you mean the ones with wet/dry filtration, they needed MAJOR water changes to avoid nitrate buildup. Unless you were doing like 90% water changes you could never get your nitrates as low as many of us maintain today. That does make me wonder though, having learned from that experience ( and doing the math) I now don't bother with any water change under 50% and I wonder how many OTS tanks could benefit from a few 90+% water changes to really rid them of disolved undesirables. Of course toxins absorbed by plants rocks and animals could leach back into the new water, so it may require a number of major water changes to clean a tank out. FWIW I have done plenty of near total water changes and never lost any animals doing it.
As far as bare bottom, if you lack that entire range of bio-diversity that lives in the bed you wont have to worry about losing it I guess, but in reality you lost it before you began. Detritus accumulation is a long term issue with a sand bed (and live rock) but cleaning it is a maintenance item and I would not say OTS is primarily caused by lack of sand maintenance.
My money is on #1 reduction in diversity and #2 build up of un-desirable chemicals in rock water sand and inhabitants.
As far as bare bottom, if you lack that entire range of bio-diversity that lives in the bed you wont have to worry about losing it I guess, but in reality you lost it before you began. Detritus accumulation is a long term issue with a sand bed (and live rock) but cleaning it is a maintenance item and I would not say OTS is primarily caused by lack of sand maintenance.
My money is on #1 reduction in diversity and #2 build up of un-desirable chemicals in rock water sand and inhabitants.
All good points. I recall older threads on this site that reviewed similar support for large water changes, and printed articles in FAMA that used wastewater management formulas to show 75% and up is the only justified use of water change time. I too have had no trouble with 90-100% changes every interval, I find it a chief mechanism for battling hair algae. one standout character in keeping nano reefs has been the longevity associated with sandbed, whether or not the system uses the sandbed approach... All anecdotal observation for sure, but the longest and cleanest systems I've had and seen were the bare bottom ones or the ones that had the accumulations thoroughly removed during cleaning.
Heres my thoughts,And present problems i've been dealing with.
In 1996 i set up a 90g with DSB and 20g fuge,skimmer ect, this tank was great and thrived intill about late 2003 when it basicly crashed.this tank remained algea free and had no snails (lack of food)but near the end algea started growing up the rocks from the sand bed same with glass Anything that touched the sand had 2 inches of growth from the sand up.Nitrates were way up as well as phos.and was not very stable anymore.
So i had a move coming up so i thought what better time to upgrade.So i upgrade to a 125gRR with all the goodies.tunze's,reactors,400mh,55g sump,AMS g3 skimmer.and went BB for the first 1yr of the new tank.well it has been nightmare with nitrates.phos has been kept in line with phosban and same 20g fuge so after cursing BB, i added a DSB again.well it is brining the nitrates down,but i dont think they will go to 0 even with really no livestock in this tank.And no amount of water changes seem to help.I alway change 15g or more every week not mention a few 50gwith ro/di and feed next to nothing.I spend alot of time making sure this tank is clean.
What do these 2 tanks have in common?
The same rock i've had for close to 8 yrs now.I am going to start replacing it, and i have a feeling all the problems that seem to have leeched over from the 90g will all disapear.
In 1996 i set up a 90g with DSB and 20g fuge,skimmer ect, this tank was great and thrived intill about late 2003 when it basicly crashed.this tank remained algea free and had no snails (lack of food)but near the end algea started growing up the rocks from the sand bed same with glass Anything that touched the sand had 2 inches of growth from the sand up.Nitrates were way up as well as phos.and was not very stable anymore.
So i had a move coming up so i thought what better time to upgrade.So i upgrade to a 125gRR with all the goodies.tunze's,reactors,400mh,55g sump,AMS g3 skimmer.and went BB for the first 1yr of the new tank.well it has been nightmare with nitrates.phos has been kept in line with phosban and same 20g fuge so after cursing BB, i added a DSB again.well it is brining the nitrates down,but i dont think they will go to 0 even with really no livestock in this tank.And no amount of water changes seem to help.I alway change 15g or more every week not mention a few 50gwith ro/di and feed next to nothing.I spend alot of time making sure this tank is clean.
What do these 2 tanks have in common?
The same rock i've had for close to 8 yrs now.I am going to start replacing it, and i have a feeling all the problems that seem to have leeched over from the 90g will all disapear.
i just broke down an old tank ...re established it with all dead rock and coral skeletons...no live rock at all...there is a thread currently on r/c "this hobby needs to rethink the use of live rock" i have been saying that for years...the old tank syndrome may very well be the result of live rock that is loaded with phosphates after a few years...i have seen this happen to a friend...when he broke down his 8+ yr old reef which could no longer support leather corals...he took the live rock put it in 5 gals of brand new zero phosphate water...the result in 24 hrs? phosphate readings off the scale... draw your own conclusions...i for my part will never use live rock in a reef tank again...
I happen to agree that the issue derives from mainly a lack in biodiversity over time. I have had a tank for 4 years, in which time I have not seen a significant die-back, but rather a slowing of the normal growth. I have also noticed a greatly reduced variety in life forms associated with rock and sand.
Accumulation of toxic compounds is a possibility in our systems, although it is moderated by heavy skimmer, activated carbon, and 30-50% water changes.
I would happen to agree that replacing some fraction of rock and some fraction of sand each year or two would be beneficial for the tank. It would allow higher diversity maintenance and possibly removal of accumulated toxics. I woule even consider it a part of normal maintenance.
Just to stress again though... I believe that OTS can be diverted, slowed, rerouted, put on hold, etc by good regular maintenance.
Wade
Accumulation of toxic compounds is a possibility in our systems, although it is moderated by heavy skimmer, activated carbon, and 30-50% water changes.
I would happen to agree that replacing some fraction of rock and some fraction of sand each year or two would be beneficial for the tank. It would allow higher diversity maintenance and possibly removal of accumulated toxics. I woule even consider it a part of normal maintenance.
Just to stress again though... I believe that OTS can be diverted, slowed, rerouted, put on hold, etc by good regular maintenance.
Wade
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