phosphate

[Anonymous]

Every time I test for it, I get .5 ppm. I can't get less than that. Is this normal? Do you guys ever get 0.0?

 

[jdeets]

I always get 0.5 too.

 

[Anonymous]

perhaps I have a different test kit but my 55g always tests at 0. But then with my aquairum pharm***** test kit ammonia is always .25 or .5.

 

[Anonymous]

OK thanks.

 

[Ben1]

What type of kit are you using? Using saliferts p04 on double res I get 0.

If you think you have P04 then a GFO media would help to solve this.

 

[ChrisRD]

If you don't have a serious algae problem I would be skeptical that a 0.5 PPM reading is accurate...

FWIW, in RHF's articles he mentions a level of 0.03 PPM or lower as a target value. Apparently natural seawater on a wild reef can be considerly lower (down around 0.005 PPM 8O).

 

[Sponge_Bob]

If you are using "bargain" carbon in your filter and are replacing it often, it could be related. Any carbon, even the best on the market will leach out some phosphate. Also, did you check your tap water for PO4?

I use Hagen's test and I always have 0. Had 0.25 when I first started the tank...with fresh carbon!

HTH

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks guys, I use the PO4 test kit by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, inc.

I don't use any carbon at all, and I use RO.

I was just curious what others tested out as...

 

[Ben1]

That thest kit is junk.

Use salifert, hach, lamotte, or if you like equiptment, like me get a milwaukee colorimeter for low range P04.

 

[jdeets]

Looks like I need to try a different kit as well...

 

[Anonymous]

Looks like I need to try a different kit as well...

Are you using the same one?

 

[ChrisRD]

Any carbon, even the best on the market will leach out some phosphate.

I don't think I buy that. At least not in any significant quantity.

When Inland Reef was still in business, they did lots of product testing and often shared results with us here on the board. They tested a bunch of different brands of carbon and were unable to detect any phosphate leaching in several brands including TLF HydroCarbon 2 and Marineland Black Diamond.

I've used both products for years and never noticed any evidence that they were a significant source of phosphates.

 

[Sponge_Bob]

Any carbon, even the best on the market will leach out some phosphate.

I don't think I buy that. At least not in any significant quantity.

When Inland Reef was still in business, they did lots of product testing and often shared results with us here on the board. They tested a bunch of different brands of carbon and were unable to detect any phosphate leaching in several brands including TLF HydroCarbon 2 and Marineland Black Diamond.

I've used both products for years and never noticed any evidence that they were a significant source of phosphates.

I'm not asking you to buy anything. The fact is that carbon does leach some phosphate in SOME amount. The cheaper the carbon, the more PO4 it leaches. It's not something up for discussion, it is a scientific fact. Now, yes quality carbon will leach very low amounts of PO4... but not all carbons are of good quality.

But it's a free country and you are free to believe whatever you want. I really don't care or take it personnally.

 

[ChrisRD]

I'm not going to get into a semantical debate over this...

My point is that there are quality carbons out there that can be used without imparting significant phosphate levels to the system (which is why I worded my last post that way). I only responded to your post because you've mentioned this issue several times now on this board and I don't want newer folks to get discouraged about carbon use as it can be a great tool.

When using a cheap carbon, and/or not rinsing carbon (some of which are washed with phosphoric acid) I agree that it could impart significant levels of phosphate to the system. When correctly using quality products that are intended for use in a reef such as those mentioned above this has not proven to be a big concern IME.

 

[Sponge_Bob]

I'm not going to get into a semantical debate over this...

My point is that there are quality carbons out there that can be used without imparting significant phosphate levels to the system (which is why I worded my last post that way). I only responded to your post because you've mentioned this issue several times now on this board and I don't want newer folks to get discouraged about carbon use as it can be a great tool.

When using a cheap carbon, and/or not rinsing carbon (some of which are washed with phosphoric acid) I agree that it could impart significant levels of phosphate to the system. When correctly using quality products that are intended for use in a reef such as those mentioned above this has not proven to be a big concern IME.

Don't want to enter into a semantical debate either but read your post and then read mine. Aren't you saying the EXACT same thing as I am but worded differently? As for "significant amount" of PO4, I was under the impression that ANY detectable amount of PO4 in a reef system IS significant, but hey, that's just me. Don't mind me if I keep thinking that way.

As for people getting discouraged of using carbon, which is a great tool, I agree 100% with you on that one, I don't think that this is the message my posts are conveying. I do discourage them using "cheap / bargain" carbon, which IMHO is rather more helpful than harmful. Right? Right.

I'm done about this issue. If you want the last word, by all means, please indulge.

 

[ChrisRD]

First, your opinions and point of view are welcome here, but your unnecessary sarcasm is not. Please try to express your point of view without resorting to an antagonistic tone - it really doesn't help get your point across any more effectively.

As for "significant amount" of PO4, I was under the impression that ANY detectable amount of PO4 in a reef system IS significant, but hey, that's just me.

...and that's the point I was making - neither product produced a detectable level of phosphate during testing.

But semantics aside, anyone who's been in the reef hobby for a while knows that you will see signs of excessive phosphates show-up as algae growth before they are noticeable on most hobby test kits. As I said earlier, I've not noticed any evidence of phosphate issues in many years of actually using both products.

Have you actually used or tested either product?

 

[Sponge_Bob]

First, your opinions and point of view are welcome here, but your unnecessary sarcasm is not. Please try to express your point of view without resorting to an antagonistic tone - it really doesn't help get your point across any more effectively.

As for "significant amount" of PO4, I was under the impression that ANY detectable amount of PO4 in a reef system IS significant, but hey, that's just me.

...and that's the point I was making - neither product produced a detectable level of phosphate during testing.

But semantics aside, anyone who's been in the reef hobby for a while knows that you will see signs of excessive phosphates show-up as algae growth before they are noticeable on most hobby test kits. As I said earlier, I've not noticed any evidence of phosphate issues in many years of actually using both products.

Have you actually used or tested either product?

First of all, I'm not sarcastic at all. Maybe you misunderstood me or took it the wrong way. On the other hand, you have singled me out on this issue and posted here and on another part of the board the same "not so correct answer" about carbon. Also, another long time member of this board who is an experienced reefer ( Lawdawg ) said the very same thing as me.

I've said that I would not post again about this but I find it now necessary to bring up a few details that might enlighten you as to where I come from and what is by background. I have a chemistry degree in chemical processing, and yes, I've been using carbon for a long time. Also, yes, I do have a test of PO4 at home and it is fairly accurate.

For your information, carbon is made of organic matter. All organic matter contains PO4 (DNA, RNA, energy transfer molecules and others are PO4). So to say that carbon contains no PO4 is untrue. Now, some claim that carbon that is acid washed, specifically in phosphoric acid, will leach more PO4 in the system. That is absolutely false and actually the contrary. Furthermore, acid washing is usually done with hydrochloric or sulfuric acids, not phosphoric acid.

Now, like you said, carbon of good quality will leach low amounts of PO4 in the system which is acceptable for a FOWLR system, not so much for a reef. Some other misconception about carbon is the use of coconut carbon. Carbon made from coconut is actually denser than the "normal" carbon and therefore is better at filtering gas than it is for water. The less dense carbon you can get your hands on, i.e. the ones that are macro-pourous, the better. Furthermore, any package that says " Phosphate free is either lying or doesn't know what he is talking about... neither is good. On the other hand, packages that shows the density of their products, the pourousity, the amount of PO4 it contains is more likely to have nothing to hide and can be trusted.

Bottom line, carbon has its advantages and its disadvantages. There are good carbon out there and there are not so good carbon as well. ALL of them will leach PO4 in your system. So the key question here is, like Lawdawg rightfully put it, why and when are/should you using carbon.

Kind regards,

 

[Anonymous]

Every time I test for it, I get .5 ppm. I can't get less than that. Is this normal? Do you guys ever get 0.0?

Refrus:

To me the bottom line is this. You have a closed aquatic environment. You are going to get nitrates, phosphates and carbon dioxide from the bioload. What is important is what the tank does to recycle/export those waste products.

So even though I use a filter media (crushed oyster shells) that Guy reports has lotsa phosphates. (His test tank rose to 4 ppm phosphates). And even though I use tap water which the local water authrity reports has 30ppm phosphates. My tank has unmeasureable amounts of nitrates and phosphates.

 

[Ben1]

I use black diamond carbon almost constantly and havent been able to test P04 in my system in some time. I dont think the amount of P04 let off by the carbon would be significant enough to even build up to a point you can test for it if using a better carbon like the ones Chris mentioned. Besides if you would be concerned about a tiny bit of P04 leaching you better not feed you fish ever, as that will bring more P04 then running a bit of good carbon.

:lol:

Or run a dual inline fluidized filter with the first containing carbon and the second a GFO to absorb any minut amount of P04 let off.

 

[ChrisRD]

you have singled me out on this issue

I stated my intention for responding to you above - it's certainly nothing personal. Please don't take it that way.

So to say that carbon contains no PO4 is untrue.

I don't think anyone is arguing that. I think most of us understand that activated carbons are made of organic matter. It's going to remain intact as a solid in our systems, however, and most of that organic matter will stay put.

Now, some claim that carbon that is acid washed, specifically in phosphoric acid, will leach more PO4 in the system.

I don't think anyone is arguing that either. I think they're two separate issues.

I agree with you that acid washing should decrease phosphate leaching. I mentioned that it would probably be a bad idea to use a carbon that had been washed in phosphoric acid without rinsing it. One should really rinse any carbon before using it, so I guess we can agree that's a non-issue - probably shouldn't have even mentioned it as it seems to have clouded the issue.

Now, like you said, carbon of good quality will leach low amounts of PO4 in the system which is acceptable for a FOWLR system, not so much for a reef.

Phosphates are definitely more of a concern in a reef. I was only trying to point out that there are some known activated carbon products available that don't leach a significant amount of phosphate. Even for a reef tank. I named two that many reefers have lots of experience using. Test results and feedback from many experienced reefers over many years confirms that they're fine to use in this regard.