Phosphate Testing

[pweissma]

I've seen many threads where someone with an algae problem indicates 0 phosphates. Responses tend to refute the claim of 0 phosphates. I've haven't seen this lack of respect for any other test -- perhaps the suggestion for a better quality test kit but that's it. No flat out denials. What's the story here? How can I get an accurate phosphate measurement? I too have a bit of an algae problem and my API phosphate test has always read 0.

 

[reefprobe]

Bottom line even with zero phos you still have it so have a phos absorb in there all the time and save your money on the phos kit!

 

[Bob 1000]

If you get a good phosphate test kit(photo meter) you will learn on your own what levels algae outbreaks happen.. From my experience they happen around the 0.30 mark after at least 2 months... If you lighting is kept at a 7hr light period, flow is very high, and there is a phosphate export system in place it could take longer.. I have a lot of flow, my skimmer takes out a lot and I'm dosing vinegar and kalk now.. The last 2monhs almost my phosphates have been hoovering around 0.20 with vodka dosing.. All my rocks are covered in purple my sump has had one patch of hair algae that never spread, but there is no extra flow until next month on my sump..

 

[JimmyR1rider]

Even when the kits say 0 phosphates- any kits api- red sea- salifert- lamotte- you will still have some level of phosphates- unless you use a special meter you will not be able to detect minute levels of phos.- Heres a great article about it. It's a comparison of phosban and rowaphos but goes into it pretty well.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2004/review.htm

I was going to spring on la motte test kits due to some green hair algae breaking out in small patches even though my salifert kit said I have 0. But when I called russ he stated that without the meter EVERY test kit will say 0 when the phosphates are as low as they are for me. So he saved me some money. Im afraid to see what the meter costs as well is I dont know how to get phos to ABSOLUTE 0 so all the meter would do is piss me off that I have phosphates and I will have paid I'm sure big bucks to annoy myself lol.

 

[KathyC]

I've seen many threads where someone with an algae problem indicates 0 phosphates. Responses tend to refute the claim of 0 phosphates. I've haven't seen this lack of respect for any other test -- perhaps the suggestion for a better quality test kit but that's it. No flat out denials. What's the story here? How can I get an accurate phosphate measurement? I too have a bit of an algae problem and my API phosphate test has always read 0.

The only accurate reading you will get on phosphates will be from a Hanna Meter. All brands of phosphate test kits won't give you really accurate levels.

Bottom line is that if you have an algae issue, you definitely have high phosphates.

Many of the kits will be false because the algae is USING the phosphate to feel themselves (very basically), so they may not show up well in a test kit.

Being that a test kit won't get rid of phosphates for you, the best thing you can do is:
More frequent (and larger ) water changes
Run a Phosban reactor
Run Carbon
Feed intelligently (a fishes stomach is the size of its eye - as a general rule)
Make sure no crud is collecting in your sump
Run a decent skimmer

 

[JimmyR1rider]

All good points Kathy.

 

[pweissma]

The only accurate reading you will get on phosphates will be from a Hanna Meter. All brands of phosphate test kits won't give you really accurate levels.

Bottom line is that if you have an algae issue, you definitely have high phosphates.

Many of the kits will be false because the algae is USING the phosphate to feel themselves (very basically), so they may not show up well in a test kit.

Being that a test kit won't get rid of phosphates for you, the best thing you can do is:
More frequent (and larger ) water changes
Run a Phosban reactor
Run Carbon
Feed intelligently (a fishes stomach is the size of its eye - as a general rule)
Make sure no crud is collecting in your sump
Run a decent skimmer

Thank you Kathy! You ansered my unwritten question "What's a noob to do?"

I've already been admonished for overfeeding so that's taken care of and I am running carbon. I'm doing 4-5g (34g Solana) weekly water changes. My mesh-mod stock skimmer is pulling out a dark smelly skimmate.

What would be appropriate for me from here? I'm deciding what to do for a skimmer, currently leaning towards a Warner Marine H1. Chaeto didn't make your list. Was this an oversite? Given that my tank is just two months old my inclination is to wait and see how things progress for before getting a phosban reactor.

 

[JimmyR1rider]

pw if you dont already- run phosban or rowaphos- same type of product different brands and different ways of measuring- phosban goes by weight- 50 grams per 50 gallons and rowa phos goes by hieght- i think 2 mm per however many gallons. If you can run it in a reactor- fluidized reactors get more of the phosphate media surface area to hit the water, which will make it perform better- if you run it in a media bag it will still do its job but less surface of the media will hit the water running into it. Media bags can also trap nitrates. Most run it in a two little fishies reactor- I did until just recently I switched to a NextReef MR-1 Monster dual chamber. It should be changed every 6 weeks or so. Hope this helps

And no you dont have to wait to get a phosban reactor get it now and get it running before you get big problems possibly because your phosphates got way out of control.:splitspin Having phosban running can never hurt. Also cheato is used to control nitrates mostly not phosphates. Good luck

 

[KathyC]

It should be changed every 6 weeks or so.

And no you dont have to wait to get a phosban reactor get it now and get it running before you get big problems possibly because your phosphates got way out of control.:splitspin Having phosban running can never hurt. Also cheato is used to control nitrates mostly not phosphates. Good luck

Have to disagree with you there Jimmy - the Phosban should be changes the minute you see your readins start to rise - or see the algae forming on your glass every day. 6 weeks is way too long to wait when you are tyring to correct a phosphate issue.
Same with the carbon (which actually does a better job of cleaning your water than your skimmer does) - so do pay attention to this!

You want to aim for your water changes to be around 20% of your volume. 3-4-or 5 gallons is not enough weekly on a 34g tank. (IMO)

You also want to clean your skimmer cup daily - as long as whe is in your cup (like that thick gooey skimmate by the bottom) - is still touching your water - so for all intents and purposes - it is still IN your tank.

Jimmy is correct - no reason to wait on the Phosban reactor - you need one now..and always

 

[JimmyR1rider]

Have to disagree with you there Jimmy - the Phosban should be changes the minute you see your readins start to rise - or see the algae forming on your glass every day. 6 weeks is way too long to wait when you are tyring to correct a phosphate issue.
Same with the carbon (which actually does a better job of cleaning your water than your skimmer does) - so do pay attention to this!

You want to aim for your water changes to be around 20% of your volume. 3-4-or 5 gallons is not enough weekly on a 34g tank. (IMO)

You also want to clean your skimmer cup daily - as long as whe is in your cup (like that thick gooey skimmate by the bottom) - is still touching your water - so for all intents and purposes - it is still IN your tank.

Jimmy is correct - no reason to wait on the Phosban reactor - you need one now..and always

Is true Kathy- I change mine every 6- but I have in my eyes due to missing a W/C where I am usually religious us when the hair started and am with todays w/c doing daily to eradicate phosphates so yes- as soon as readings(which measn the media is exhausted and need new) go up or you get algae, and if your battling a phos problem more frequent. Be diligent and patient and in time you'll get it right.:cheers:

 

[Bob 1000]

Water changes are good,,lol.. Phosban is good too,,lol... Paying attention to your levels,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Priceless..

 

[Awibrandy]

pw, as already stated by many the only way to get near accurate test results for P04 is by using a phos meter which can be expensive. Now Hanna has come out with a New little phos meter called "Checkers" which is relatively in expensive at $39.99 introductory offer. It seems to be accurate.
The only way around phosphate battle without the meter is to continue with regular weekly 20% RO/DI water changes, and continues up keep of GFO preferably in some sort of reactor (I use Two Little Fishies), and activated carbon. Without the meter you will not know where your phosphates are at, so changing the GFO will be a guessing game. Meaning it will be up to you to decide wether to change it out weekly, biweekly, or even every six weeks depending on wether or not you are having a problem with algae.
And even then; the presence, or none presence of algae is not a good indicator. I had no algae in my tank for well over 3 years, until about a couple of weeks ago where a few spots of red slime have shown up on a few rocks. I had no idea where my P04 numbers were at since I didn't have a meter. I now have the little Checkers. I ran 3 different test with the following readings: 0.000, 2nd. test 1.27, 3rd. test 1.20, a week later 1.10. I am continuing my weekly w/c, as well as changing my gfo & ac weekly in an attempt to reduce the darn P04.

 

[pweissma]

Thanks everyone. I'll start by using GFO in a bag. Any reason why I shouldn't put both activated carbon and GFO in the same bag until I get a reactor going? I'll move to a reactor once I find a good way to do it in my Solana. I'm sure the info is out there but so far I haven't been able to find out how others have tackled this issue. I ordered a Hanna Checker from here http://www.eseasongear.com/hahi713chhch.html , $39.99 and free shipping.

Found a thread about using a gatorade bottle for a reactor. I may try something similar using a baby bottle. They're top quality plastic and BPA free.

 

[JimmyR1rider]

The more dense the media in the bag is the less of it will actually hit the water because the flow will go more around it than through it, therefore less surface area of the media will actually come in contact with the water to do its job.

 

[Awibrandy]

Don't forget to order the regents! The checkers comes with only 5. You'll use those up playing with it when you get it.

 

[Simon Garratt]

Hi guys. just thought id chuck some info in regarding Po4 testing etc.

Not sure if you get it over the pond but our most common kit over here is the Merc Kit which measures from 0.14ppm down to around 0.008ppm

One important thing to remember when testing for phosphate is to have a kit or apperatus that measures accurately within the specific ranges that we are targeting in tanks.

Basically your ideal target range is from 0.03ppm (the upper recomended acceptable limit prior to calcification inhibition in stoney corals) down to around 0.005ppm (below this and its believed you may start to get issues with deprivation)

The crucial bit is to undestand the meaning of all those 'noughts'...ie that 0.3ppm is 10 times the concentration of 0.03ppm. and 0.003 is 1/10th the concentration of 0.03ppm, and 1/100th of 0.3ppm...It makes a huge difference between success and failure where you have an extra nought....0.03ppm (acceptable) 0.3ppm (bad...actually 10 times as bad)

The last important thing, is to know the error factor of the kit ie its +/- factor of accuracy.

If you look at the spec sheet for the hanna meter shown. It has a resolution of 0.00 with a +/- factor of 4% or up to 0.04ppm

So basically, Even if you are getting a reading of 0.00 on that meter it 'can' mean anything up to 0.04ppm which is already above the 'maximum' recomended.

This is probably why theres such a large difference in price between lab grade kits and apperatus, compared to your cheaper and older test kits which simply dont measure into the ranges that we realy need. Basically a kit or tester that reads from 0.03ppm 'upwards' is only any good for telling you that your already 'over' the recommended levels. beyond that, its pretty useless if you want any kind of indepth view of whats going on inside your tank or run any kind of long term projected trends. Ie watching your readings going up from 0.02ppm by say 0.002ppm increments over several weeks to ascertain water or media change schedules that prevent hitting that 0.03ppm threashold.

ok its a bit anal i know, but its surprising what you can learn about your system and how it performs if you take time to look deeply and accurately enough.

Regards

 

[JimmyR1rider]

I don't think ANYTHING is anal if it makes for a much healthier system in the longrun. Thanks Simon for the info

 

[Awibrandy]

Thanks a mil Simon!!!!!!!
Which is what scares the beedeejeeeeeeeeeeez out of me when I got that reading of 1.10 in my reef.
What I cannot figure out is why are my sps growing & coloring up with such high P04.....................:happysad:

 

[JimmyR1rider]

Awi do you talk to them at night? I hear it works on SPS just like with plants:tongue1:

 

[Awibrandy]

Awi do you talk to them at night? I hear it works on SPS just like with plants:tongue1:

Night? What's that?LOL I'm out before the tank lights just about every night.:lol2: