Two sides of story

[danmhippo]

I know I definetly will miss Dave and Ivy. But I think it is also important for us to know the other side of the story (importer side, that is). I do see a benefit for opening the forum that dedicated to the industry in general. Let the fact be told, ugly or not. I believe in general public education/awareness. It is only when the public is informed that will curb the uncontrolled collection practice.

Only time will tell if this forum, whoever the moderator is, serves its purpose. Most important of all, it's not just us being educated about the collection/trade, the wholesalers and importers will in turn be educated too.

 

[Anonymous]

To each his own but I think he is cutting of his nose to spite his face. When you find a business doing things the correct way, you celebrate them, I guess he has reasons to be skeptical from other industries, however thats no better than making generalizations about a race or religion something that anyone who's in the sump knows Dave is rather passionate about. IMO Dave's position is totally and completely hypocritical, that philosphy only works when it suits him. Mary's business model is the most ecologically minded of anyone in the business yet Dave lumps here into the same category as the worst not from her actions, but because of what others have done.

 

[MaryHM]

Amen Damnhippo! It is SOOOOOOOOO important for the hobbyists to know what goes on in this industry. Honestly, they are the only ones who can initiate change. And when your discussing the industry, you need someone familiar with the industry to participate. I'm known for showing the industry as it is- ugly side and all. I don't try to paint the industry as a wonderful thing, that's why I'm involved so heavily in industry REFORM. If I thought the industry was perfect, I wouldn't be wasting my time trying to change it.

And over the past couple of years I have learned so much from the hobbyists on discussion boards and chat rooms. I've invited all of the AMDA members to join in, so maybe we can have more industry people involved.

 

[jamesw]

Good point you two.

We already decided we NEED this forum. That's more obvious than ever.

So geeze, if not Mary Middlebrook, then who???? I can't think of anyone better qualified than Mary to moderate this forum.

Besides, she's the moderator. That's doesn't mean she's going to tell you you are right or wrong...she's here to help out.

Cheers
James Wiseman

 

[olgakurt]

Having read many of Mary's posts and the platform she gets by being here, I too am considering leaving reefs.org. It is a shame it is my favorite site. I think this industry needs reforms and don't agree with the platform now being presented. I will stay a little and see how this goes.
_________________
being sued for debt

 

[Anonymous]

I am somewhat confused by the idea of this being a "platform" for anyone. You talk as if we are all going to become brainwashed by some evil force without knowing it. This is no different than Shimek or any other expert moderating a forum that is in their area of expertise. As far as wholesalers and industry insiders goes I can think of no one better than Mary anyway. She runs the most economically minded wholesale operation that I am aware of and will be an invaluable resource for the LFS as well as the customer. I would give anything to have my wholesaler in Atlanta be as forthcoming as she is about how things really work. Industry reform must take place at all levels. Mary is trying to start at the wholesale level and I applaud her efforts. How many other industry types do you see here? None. SO get yer panties out of yer butt and see what happens.

Glenn

 

[Green Mariner]

I agree with Tom on this one, I will miss Dave, but I agree that he is lumping Mary in with all the other wholesalers. You may not agree with Mary on everything, but you cannot deny she does care, besides how many of us agree with each other?, not many!!

. Mary's company is very ecologically minded and Mary goes out of her way to help the hobby and industry as a whole. How many on-line stores got involved with any of the proposed bans? NONE
How many ols provide care info for the animals they sell? NOT MANY
Mary cares not only about the industry as a whole, but she cares about the animals she sells, this is a very rare quality in her line of business and she should be supported for her stance on this and not barked at.

Mary I say WELCOMEand glad too see you here!!

 

[MaryHM]

What??!!! You mean I don't get to tell people if they're right or wrong???!! I QUIT!

 

[naesco]

Dave's post is nothing more than a valid concern that ethical issues will be reposted here rather than in a more widely read general reef section.
I too am concerned that this might happen but I will wait and see.
I am also prepared to give Mary a chance to see what she can do.

 

[farmertodd]

Jeremy,

Well... I just made it more a whole lot more simple and got rid of the tv. This way, I wouldn't be presented with a situation where I would see *any* objectionable material.

But I'd hate to make any inferences there...

Todd

 

[Anonymous]

The Toddmeister cometh. But doth he stay-eth, or whilst he go-eth?

Stick around for once, Todd

 

[JeremyR]

Hey Todd,

You told me you got rid of it cuz you were watching it too much, not because the programming was objecting to your sense of righteousness... heh.

 

[jamesw]

Kill Your Television!

Cheers
James

 

[Carpentersreef]

I'm voicing my support for this forum.

Importers/wholesalers are a necessary part of this hobby, and without the input of one, we are only left to assume what is really going on. Dave, being on the other side of the line, would have been a good source of info the other way.
Mary is here, and it is a good thing. She'll probably be called on a lot of stuff, and can clarify things for us. Without all the facts in front of us, rumours and assumptions, repeated often enough, have a way of being accepted as true. Dave would have been a great source of info here, in that regard.

Anyways, I hope there are no second thoughts on bringing this forum online, and I look forward to it's contents.

Mitch

 

[Bill2]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>I am somewhat confused by the idea of this being a "platform" for anyone. You talk as if we are all going to become brainwashed by some evil
force without knowing <hr></blockquote>

What it's not working?http://www.reefs.org/ubb/smile.gif. I need to turn up the voices. You hear em Todd don't you?

Bill

 

[farmertodd]

Jeremy,

Which is exactly my point. It was too difficult to regulate myself, so I found the best option was to just get it out of the house so that there wouldn't be any temptation.

Charles,

I may just have to. I've been reformulating my opinons on where I stand on issues in the Industry and the Hobby that would pertain to this forum, and may be nice to have other voices inside my head. Darn that E.O. Wilson!

Todd

 

[JeremyR]

There is alot of crap on tv, so do you never watch a football game because the same channel had something objectionable to you on the day before? Sheesh..

 

[loosbrew]

alright all right... it was just a matter of time before i piped up. As much as i feel that Mary is the "Nader"(bad?) of the industry, it still means that its happening. whats happening? well, here it comes....as so many people here find the knowledge that so suits them, they also find the opinions of people like me, dave and a few others. like many others said, i also feel that this forum may inevitably end up being the "underwear" of the issues that need to be heard. By that i mean, its there, but not very visible. now instead of topics in the Gen Reef forum like "Warning, very disturbing facts coming" or " Why are we doing this to our reefs?", now people can choose to not be reminded by these very issues that need to ne reminded of. it very much reminds me of whats happening now, ashcroft says we need anti terrorism laws, which quietly included forcing trojan horses into the PC's they feel they need to "monitor" i fear that the voice of the many concious people here will be the very reason that the hobby starts to become more and more aggressive with thier representatives, you know, and make them say, "Hey!! we dont all have to be bad, look at me...look at me...im the good one, and i can represent what the industry is like for all the newcomers!"

its been impressive, the amount of people that have been standing up for what they believe in the past year or two on this BB, but pardon my saying so, i really feel that this is a grave mistake. I think that Dave isnt a coward. i think he made his decision with genuine thoughtfulness and i applaud him for that. I encourage people who feel that if this is the wrong place for this form of propaganda, then let yourself be heard and maybe we can make a difference where it matters, in the pocket of the industry and the people who support it.

loosbrew

 

[SPC]

Loosebrew, I am sure that you have seen by my posts that I am one of the posters who care greatly for the animals we disuss. You also might have noticed that I don't like being played for a sucker. But for the life of me I don't understand this argument some of you are trying to make, propaganda?? IMO your argument is that we are a bunch of sheep that will be coerced by the evil wholesaler while you and the others are able to see through this. Let me ask you this, what do you see as the right approach for dealing with wholesalers?
Steve

 

[loosbrew]

many people here know my opinions, as irrational as they may seem. to me they are not. i feel greatly that the hobby should consist soley of captive propagated animals, which i dont feel is too far off anyway. my main point is that it seems this new forum will be used to bury the issues that come with this hobby. i know that many people here who have been in the hobby for many years, who take wonderful care of thier animals, know of these issues. but what of the newcomers? will they be as interested that this new and exciting hobby comes at a moral price?will they even bother reading this forum so that they can be reminded that for the tang they just bought ten had to die? i call it propaganda because it fits the description. let this one poster child of responsible wholesale glow in the spot light to make the newcomers who havent seen the past ,think that what they get from her will be different than what they bought in a store, but when it comes down to it, its the same reefs that are getting raped for decoration. the reefs that walt smith and others hack corals off of will be the same reefs that "responsible" wholesalers get thier same corals from. responisble methods or not, it doesnt change the fact that there is a source being depleted, not only by the natives paving roads, building houses, collecting for the profit of themselves and the white guy who provided jobs to ignorant. think about it this way, what do you have to lose to stand up for you yourself try to achieve in your aquarium? it is very common practice that the government takes its place on this issue only when the source is just shy of complete extiction. i dont mind people having reef aquariums, but dont be dumb and support people who think they will make a difference when they themselves are the part of the problem. but no matter how passionate i am, it wont stop you or the guy next door from buying that beautiful whatever coral from your halfway "responsible" LFS.

loosbrew