Calling a spade a spade

[MaryHM]

Since our other thread was so convienently locked, I thought I'd start a new thread following up on some of the ideas I mentioned in the other one.

Does anyone here think that people in the industry or hobby don't consider Indonesia to have a cyanide problem, since Philippines gets all the bad press on it? Rarely do you see people lambasting the Indonesian cyanide problem.

Based on what Steve wrote about a company changing their country of origin from the Philppines to the vague "Indian Ocean"...Do you guys think that is acceptable? To try to hide your Philippine fish under some vague label? Shouldn't you just be honest and call a spade a spade??

 

[Len]

Conveniently locked? I know this is off topic, but care to clarify this statement first.

 

[MaryHM]

It was an emotional outburst. I'll reassume my robo-Len no emotions mode immediately, sir.

 

[Anonymous]

You should call a spade a spade.
The local wholesaler here only puts country of origin on there stuff if it comes from a "good place" (ie Tong, Fiji, Haw). Everything else is left blank.

 

[MaryHM]

I don't ever get to see lists from other wholesalers anymore (if anyone wants to send some to me for research purposes, please pm me for my fax number ). You say the local guy hides the origins- what about the other big LA wholesalers? Feel free to name names :twisted:

 

[clarionreef]

Mary,
Discussion of Indonesian collecting practices are a forbidden area generally because it had become such an embarrassment to people claiming progress there. Especially in areas of pilot projects attempting to train w/ the wrong materials and even less talent.
The exporter cartel in Indo is meaner, tighter and guiltier then the one in the Philippines. The rampant use of cyanide there is more honest, less hidden and more matter of fact.
Apologists for the trade as it stands ... are also taken aback at the public defenses offered at times for cyanide fishing. I have heard these myself from exporters!
On my recent trip to Indo I heard from divers first hand who had used cyanide for nearly 10 years! They confirmed to me the reason I have always put forth. No nets worth a damn and little field attention beyond win-win environmental lectures that went no where.
Indo is the big blind spot now...the crazy uncle in the attic so to speak. It is also where an amazing supply of the trade fish come from...especially vital species.
Steve

 

[MaryHM]

Steve,

Concerning fish supply in Indonesia, what are the vital species coming from there? Granted, I deal only with coral out of there and my 2 suppliers have extremely small fish lists to go out with their huge coral lists. However, I've never seen anything on those lists that I couldn't get from the Philippines cheaper. Again though, my guy's fish lists are really small- I mean they'll show stock of less than 100 fish total- so maybe I'm missing the big Indo fish lists and what they are offering.

 

[Anonymous]

That was pretty standard practice across the board as far as I can tell. The reasoning behind why only those from "the good places" listed a country of origin was to justify the added cost.

 

[clarionreef]

Not on the list I just faxed to Mary.
The 'good places' are ALL the places and are labeled as such so to hide the country of origin.
None of this surprises me. I thought it was just routine. I mean what else would you expect from the largest customers and importers of cyanide aquarium fish in the world?
Steve
PS. I wonder if the exporter knows how ashamed the importer is of her. Its like he won't take her home to meet mom.

 

[clarionreef]

Mary,
To answer your question, just a few off-beat, non descript species as ;
majestic angel
blueface angel
imperator angel
koran angel
flagfin angel
bicolor angel
nox angel
regal angel
blue tangs
triggers, asst. species
lions asst. species
blennies and gobies up the whazoo

...and of course everyones favorite cyanide fish these days...the Bangaii cardinal.
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

Noo.
Not our precious bangaii cardinals!
How many importers, how many retailers would pass them up on moral, environmental grounds?

Anyone know the answer??
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

Its a simple question...
Who will forego the certain, guaranteed sales of the trades most popular reef fishes?
But be careful how you answer.
Steve

 

[blue hula]

It was an emotional outburst. I'll reassume my robo-Len no emotions mode immediately, sir.

Mary, I'd just like to say that I've always read your posts as fiery and passionate rather than "emotional"

The term "emotional" is often used to imply there is no base or substance to the statements. It tends to be used as a derogatory term to undermine arguments that individuals don't have the wherewithal to counter with facts (fiery or otherwise) "... aw, ignore her, she's just being emotional"

I did a quick search of the use of "emotional" on this board and no where was it used as a positive ... "emotional fluff" ... "not an emotional assessment but one based in experience" ... and so on. Indeed, it has consistently been used to imply a lack of substance behind a position rather than strong substantiated views.

Fellas, I'd be careful about labelling Mary "emotional". She has a mind like a steel trap, has facts and history at her fingertips, a keen eye for illogic and inconsistency, is careful in her wording, and frankly, has yet to fail to back up her statements.

Passionate ... yes ... and thank goodness for that.

Blue hula

 

[clarionreef]

Marys not too emotional.
But some men around here are.
Masculine insecurity and a value system based on ego, one-upsmanship and territoriality are pretty emotional characteristics as well. Those traits serve only the self and not the community.
The need to care for things seems more and more to be a survival imperative now that the male dominated world has made such protection critical.
Emotion...anger...compassion....passion...? Com'on guys. There need be no threats perceived in the proof that some people care...actually care beyond what seems politic and prudent.
Everyone could use a little more...emotion.
Sincerely Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Well, I, for one, appreciate blue's calling of a spade a spade, as well as Steve's speaking up in support. That term "emotional outburst" is a form of misogyny in my eyes (rarely seeing it applied to the male of the species).

There's no dearth of it, and no place, either.

<sm, seeing many spades>

 

[clarionreef]

See Maid,
Men are incredibly emotional.
They just don't understand the definition of the term, thats all.
Steve

 

[dizzy]

Well, I, for one, appreciate blue's calling of a spade a spade, as well as Steve's speaking up in support. That term "emotional outburst" is a form of misogyny in my eyes (rarely seeing it applied to the male of the species).

There's no dearth of it, and no place, either.

<sm, seeing many spades>

Well actually I believe much of what Jessica had to say was inspired by my use of the word emotional when referring to the 95% DOA cyanide fish statement. I knew full well that those figures had come from Peter, who later admitted such. I certainly didn't use it as gender slander as you gals are suggesting. I do believe that Peter sincerely believes those numbers, but to me they are so ridicuoulsy high that emotion seems to have trumped logic. I do see incidences where (IMO) people appear to want the marine industry to look bad, and are more than willing to believe the worst. Those figures by Dr. Wood (I believe) on the clarion angels come to mind. I agree with Steve that this industry does a good enough job of making itself look bad, and there is no need to plant evidence.

 

[blue hula]

Dizzy,

When used in the context of information or the hobby, I have little problem with the term ... i have no trouble with someone saying that the response to USL is emotional or to cyanide ... we know it is an emotive issue.

I do have a problem when the term is applied to an individual who in fact is making informed statements. We all need to both appreciate the passion and evaluate the content.

My comments were in fact inspired by the following statement:

With all due respect, I think you're getting too emotional again. My apologies for not understanding your point earlier, but perhaps you should also shoulder some responsbility for not conveying it effectively. It's not fair to always pin the blame on the reader; the writer has as much responsibility to get his/her idea across, if not more.

Cheers, Blue Hula

 

[MaryHM]

Gosh guys, I didn't know you cared! (wiping away a tear)....

Thank you for noticing that comment from Len. I ignored it because to dwell on it this morning was just going to piss me off. I'm happy that many of you saw that comment for what it was and pointed it out. Maybe we won't see another comment like that again in here.

BTW- I wuv Len. He's my favorite hippy!

 

[Anonymous]

Len's a hippy??