• Why not take a moment to introduce yourself to our members?

PeterIMA

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I received the following message from John Tullock on March 29, 2002. It was rather prophetic. So, I am presenting it to this forum for consideration in relation to recent developments like H.R. 4928 and MAMTI.

Peter Rubec


Peter,

Regarding the subjects you mentioned, my thoughts in a nutshell are:
Without extensive net training in all exporting countries, an export monitoring program that includes cyanide testing, and cyanide testing at ports of entry to the US, the program will fail. The simple reason, as I have asserted many times, it that the lower cost of cyanide-caught fish gives them too much of an economic advantage in the marketplace. This is because only the tiniest fraction of marine aquarium owners, perhaps 1% are knowledgeable or care about coral reef conservation issues. The remainder are looking for a pretty decoration for the living room, and generally shop with price as the only consideration when buying fish. I base this assertion not, of course, on any scientific study, but rather on my experience in the retail trade. Robinson is right, in my view, that MAC or any similar program will simply absorb funds and spend the majority on administrative costs, rather than actual field training, testing, etc.

I have reached the conclusion that closure of the import trade is a good idea. This will solve the cyanide issue with a single stroke (except of course for the live food fish trade). Livestock will still be available from Florida, Hawaii, and captive propogation, since the task force does not regulate interstate commerce. Since any closure is likely to be known well in advance, propogators will have ample opportunity to obtain potential breeding stock, and the closure will stimulate investment in this area.

I really do not care about the economic impact on US importers. If they do not have sufficient personal investments to weather the changes until they find other work, that is their problem. As for the fisherfolk in PI, etc., the US provides all kinds of economic aid to developing countries now, and there should be room in these budgets to help them, too. As to the impact on the hobby in general, I do not believe that there are any valid reasons for the continuation of destruction of natural resources in developing counties merely to allow affluent Americans to indulge themselves in an activity that is neither essential nor a significant contributor to the US economy. If we take the upper figure of US $200 million as the current economic value of the marine aquarium trade, this is equivalent to just over 5% of the business done annually by the company I work for, which is not even a Forutune 500 company. $200 million is totally insignificant in terms of the US economy.

Best regards,
John Tullock
 

Jaime Baquero

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Peter,

Thanks for sharing John's message. I do agree with his statement " I do not believe that there are any valid reasons for the continuation of destruction of natural resources in developing countries merely to allow affluent Americans (and Canadians) to indulge themselves in an anctivity that is neither essential nor a significant contributor to the economy".

Amen.
 

Kalkbreath

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
So you agree that even if it means more harm to the reefs and even greater destrution ...........that as long as it teaches the hobby a lesson its a wonderful thing? ............kinda sound like a boyfriend strangling his ex girlfriend to teach hear a lesson.......
 

clarionreef

Advanced Reefer
Location
San Francisco
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Yet the downward spiral in Johns estimation of the trades chances came from years of educating the demand side and searching for another soul who cared enough to alter buying habit. He found such people...what was the figure? Oh yeah 1 % of them....just one percent from such a good teacher!
It seems to me that the most frustrated people are some industry people in all this. The most risk and the most loss has come from some inside dealers who cared to much.
I never forget that the expose to begin with came from us.
When I was first collecting cyanide fish with the fisherman...and looking for constructive solutions I didn't see any 'environmentalist...[cough... gold diggers]... around back then. We learned in the ocean.,. They learn sitting in front of a computer.

"Robinson was right, in my view that MAC or any similar program will simply absorb funds and spend the majority on administrative costs rather than actual field training, testing, etc."



Thank you John. I'll take that as carrying more weight then opinions from the recreational 'talk and post' culture that has risen to spend so much time at the computer on this.

John knew that the answers all really have to come from the field...and also that few Americans care enough to change their buying habits.
Numerically speaking, that means 25 importers...5,000 retailers and a few million hobbyists.
Yet, the heat falls on the importers mostly...instead of the vastly numerically superior... 'hobbyistus cheapasstus.'
Thats why retailers say they need it cheap.
and...that converts to business people listening to their customers.
The demand from this side has never been strong for economic justice, environmental sustainability and doing the right thing. Theres a limit to what this side will do.

The world is changing and becoming more Democratic. The Philippines seems to be dragging its feet into the 21st century. Enlightened leadership there could clean this up in a few months.

The reason the bureau of fisheries continues to play the flute while Rome burns is that they have been convinced that Mac is handling it..
The MAC employee in Sarmientos office still whispers into the bosses ear like Rasputin. The boss remains numb and now focused on his orders to prepare for the 30 million dollar sell-out of the nations best fishery areas to China.

His pre-occupation in this matter may allow even more absentee management from his MAC paid...trusted aid.

Its 2004...and still the increasing amount of money spent on eco--administration and paper reform yields less bang for the buck then ever.
No fish flowing...no netting is showing.
Thats the real story...the wastage and squandering of funding for simple field work and training. Any audit would reveal shocking things ie. trainers unable to swim...unfamiliar with even 12 species of fish etc. Divers selling the few MAC fish behind their backs, for MORE money, angry villagers etc.
Blame the trade? Why of course...right along with their comensal money grubbing eco-frauds and Filipino bureaucrats. One big happy family.
Steve
 

naesco

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I have reached the conclusion that closure of the import trade is a good idea. This will solve the cyanide issue with a single stroke (except of course for the live food fish trade) John Tulock

Mary I was wrong I was wrong I was wrong when I said that industry was not listening.

Thank you John for having the courage of saying what you said.

Hopefully now everyone will join in reeforming the industry.

Hopefully others like Bob Fenner and Scott Michael will also endorse the premise that in order for industry and the hobby to be saved, we must stop cyanide now.
God Bless you.

Wayne
 

naesco

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
MaryHM":2guretig said:
And what would John's stance on non-cyanide using export countries be? Ban them as well?

Mary this is a major turning point for reeform.
I would urge you to smoke a little from the peace pipe and rejoin us in stopping the use of cyanide. All will be forgiven.

Wayne
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Jaime Baquero":28sm7i1i said:
Peter,

Thanks for sharing John's message. I do agree with his statement " I do not believe that there are any valid reasons for the continuation of destruction of natural resources in developing countries merely to allow affluent Americans (and Canadians) to indulge themselves in an anctivity that is neither essential nor a significant contributor to the economy".

Amen.

look at the tags on your clothes, towels, your appliances....

i hope you practice what you preach with regards ALL the things you purchase :wink:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I do not believe that there are any valid reasons for the continuation of destruction of natural resources in developing counties merely to allow affluent Americans to indulge themselves in an activity that is neither essential nor a significant contributor to the US economy. If we take the upper figure of US $200 million as the current economic value of the marine aquarium trade, this is equivalent to just over 5% of the business done annually by the company I work for, which is not even a Forutune 500 company. $200 million is totally insignificant in terms of the US economy.

most of american's 'activities' are 'non-essential' :wink:

if the aquarium industry WAS a 'significant' portion of the economy, it would then be ok? :roll:
 

naesco

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
You mean smoke what :lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously what comment do you have on John Tuloock's recent statement on prohibiting the import of fish from the Philippines and Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant.

Do you now agree with the growing movement that understands that cyanide must end now period?

What effect will an accomplished writer, scientist and industry leader such as Mr. Tullock have on rallying industry to unite in their opposition to cyanide use?

Do you expect further announcements along the same vein from other notable aquarists.
 

naesco

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I have reached the conclusion that closure of the import trade is a good idea. This will solve the cyanide issue with a single stroke (except of course for the live food fish trade) John Tulock

Mary I was wrong I was wrong I was wrong when I said that industry was not listening.

Thank you John for having the courage of saying what you said.

Hopefully now everyone will join in reeforming the industry.

Hopefully others like Bob Fenner and Scott Michael will also endorse the premise that in order for industry and the hobby to be saved, we must stop cyanide now.
God Bless you.

Wayne
 

MaryHM

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
What effect will an accomplished writer, scientist and industry leader such as Mr. Tullock have on rallying industry to unite in their opposition to cyanide use?

LMAO. First of all, this isn't a recent post from John. I know that reading is not your strongpoint, so I'll point it out for you from the original post:

I received the following message from John Tullock on March 29, 2002.

That statement from John is almost 2.5 years old. Do you really think John is going to take time out of his busy orchid growing schedule to "rally the industry"?? If so, you're even more amusing than I originally thought.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
naesco":2tw6ukyf said:
You mean smoke what :lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously what comment do you have on John Tuloock's recent statement on prohibiting the import of fish from the Philippines and Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant.

Do you now agree with the growing movement that understands that cyanide must end now period?

What effect will an accomplished writer, scientist and industry leader such as Mr. Tullock have on rallying industry to unite in their opposition to cyanide use?

Do you expect further announcements along the same vein from other notable aquarists.


message from John Tullock on March 29, 2002
:wink:

tullock hasn't been an 'industry leader' for awhile now, btw
 

naesco

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
It was news to me.
Very Good news.
Tullock commands the respect of hobbyist worldwide.

He has true vision. I am impressed that he saw that need over 2.5 years ago.

God bless him

Wayne Ryan
 

MaryHM

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
LOL- he has absolutely nothing to do with the industry anymore. Doesn't speak, doesn't write, etc.. But by all means, please continue to worship him as the new bastion of enlightenment for industry reform.
 

kylen

Experienced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
As for the fisherfolk in PI, etc., the US provides all kinds of economic aid to developing countries now, and there should be room in these budgets to help them, too

Then why not have this money directed towards nets/training? Or setting up CDT labs?
 

naesco

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
MaryHM":6zi5q6p1 said:
LOL- he has absolutely nothing to do with the industry anymore. Doesn't speak, doesn't write, etc.. But by all means, please continue to worship him as the new bastion of enlightenment for industry reform.

Come on Mary. Show some respect.
The guy has done great things for our hobby
 

MaryHM

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Pointing out the FACT that he hasn't been involved in this industry for a few years (speaking, writing, etc...) and pointing out the FACT that you seem to think people are going to rally around him to stop cyanide and informing you how silly that is is not disrespectful to John in the least.

Honestly, I don't know much about John. What great things did he do for the hobby?
 

clarionreef

Advanced Reefer
Location
San Francisco
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
People,
John became demoralized about the chances of reform AFTER his experience with MAC .
He hoped that they would want to get things on the right track but they didn't listen. They had their own pre-formed agenda and it was the opposite of Johns long, hands-on experience]
After many years of working the demand side of this thing as a retailer...John had considerable authority to say...it won't work.
His advice was totally ignored.

Next month when retailers are due to re-certify their stores, their refusal to do so will reinforce the wisdom John offered .
Without the netcaught fish...
Without better handled fish...
Without anything to go with the poster on the wall...
Certifications are much, much harder to sell to the demand side dealers.

Imagine for a moment if MAC folks actually listened to early counsel. To John...to me. First we train divers....A few thousand divers.
Then you have something to go with the song and dance..
Then you'd have stuff to go w/ the fluff.
Coffee in the cup,
The bean in the burrito,
The invoice in the file,
The bird in the hand...
& the foundation to proceed.

But nooo....it was build the scheme first, and they will come...later.
The conversion of poor fisherman were considered but a minor step... a small part in the "big picture" we were told.
So now...here it is. All dressed up and no where to go.
Steve
PS. John B., If you can't get your own home town favorite in Chicago, Living Sea to go again...where else do you go to try and convince people to just sign on...pay up and 'trust me'.
 

Sponsor Reefs

We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.

Click here to sponsor $10:


Top