Best lighting/flow for LPS/Zoa/Ric/Shroom tank?

[Anonymous]

Much to Chris' likely disgust, I'm looking more and more likely to go for a LPS/Zoa/Ric/Shroom tank when I get to Japan next year, with a few clams thrown in as well, but very little in the way of SPS.

I have two concerns. First off, I don't want to spend money unnecessarily (i.e. I will spend what it takes to get a decent set up, but we'll be taking on a larger mortgage in a month and using up a large wad of our savings on moving/increasing the size of our deposit on the place we're moving into). My wife will be keeping an eye on me for this one, so if I have to use up credit with her because I need to buy an MP40, I'll do it, but I don't want to if I can get away with 2 x MP10s.

Secondly, I suspect that people think about the ideal set up for SPS tanks as being the ideal set up for any tank. I have a sneaking suspicion this isn't right! If lower light/lower flow is what I need, I want people to tell me this!

So, at the moment, I'm thinking I will be going for a 36"long, 24"wide, 18"high tank. Alternatively, maybe a 40"long, 24"wide, 20"high. Not that different, but I like the dimensions a little better and it will all depend on how much more expensive it is to get a custom tank.

On that basis, my current thinking was to go for 150w metal halide pendants (I like the Sunlight Supply LumenMax 3 pendants) and a couple of MP10s, on the basis that this provides plenty of flow (including return pump) for a tank with inhabitants that are not as bothered about high flow as SPS. Strong, slow flow, I was thinking. But now I'm worrying that 2 x MP10s is probably nowhere near enough for a tank that size, even without worrying about SPS. But then I swing back to the idea of having a tank with small gobies that would appreciate rather less flow and tell myself it would also suit some of the larger polyped LPS (though those aren't the priority). If I have to get 2 x MP20s, I will, but it's expensive to do so...

Is their anyone out there with experience of a tank like this and views on whether this would work? Comments on the lighting choice also welcome. I've assumed MH for the famous ripple effect, but would T5s be better? And if so, which? I assume ATI and all those Rolls Royce options might actually be too bright. Also, do tubes ship well (I'll be ordering from the US, so they will have to make it across the Pacific)?

So many questions, so much time... :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

Briefly, before I run to work... I'd say a couple of 150MHs would look nicest, perhaps with a tube or two of T5 actinic. I say this only because I love the glitter lines and realism MHs provide. Entirely T5-lit tanks always seem a little 'flat' to me...

I'd be a little concerned about relying on Vortechs if living overseas. They've made huge improvements in reliability since their release, but many users still have problems with them. (Take a quick peek at the Eco-tech vendor forum on that Sumpless reefing site.) Add in shipping costs and delays to and from Japan, and they seem like a bit of a gamble. Just my .02.

 

[Anonymous]

Good point about the reliability question Craig, thank you. I had two Tunze streams and a multicontroller last time, but this looks rather too pricey this time.

Based on what I said about not needing SPS levels of flow, I wonder if the two options are therefore:

Expensive:

2 x Tunze Nanostreams + controller

Cheap

2 x Koralia powerhead (the drawback being the lack of variable flow, but I'm not sure how important that is). Apparently they can't be used with wavemakers...

I agree with you about the glitter lines from MH. I'd love to supplement with 2 x PC/T5 actinics, but then you're getting into bespoke fistures, which are rather pricey compared to buying a couple of pendants...

 

[Anonymous]

Secondly, I suspect that people think about the ideal set up for SPS tanks as being the ideal set up for any tank. I have a sneaking suspicion this isn't right! If lower light/lower flow is what I need, I want people to tell me this!

So many questions, so much time... :roll:

You are probably right Tom, there are many different ways to setup tanks. But, for what are describing you can most certainly get away with lower flow than what is common in SPS dominated tanks. I seem to get the best expansion and growth for my LPS with lower light and non-turbulent flow. My rics and zoas do better with higher flow and light. I would think in your proposed setup the clams would be the 'high mark' your lighting would have to cover.

 

[Anonymous]

Ok first questions first...

You mentioned cost, not spending unnecessary money. Does this mean you have equipment or do you just mean not getting "random" really cool but ultimately unnecessary stuff?

Lighting on a 36-40" long tank you really should go for 2 halides, I concur on some T5 actinic (or ATi Blue+ bulbs). You mentioned fixture issues? What issues do we have?

Also any chance for a wooden canopy to make it look like furniture? You can get away with fixture issues by simply going the DIY route, buy your own reflectors, ballasts, etc, for some reason the fixture tends to double or triple the price of the individual components.

Flow I think you can easily get away with MP10s, they put out 1500gph each, which would put you in the range of 30-50x turnover rate, although that's kind of a useless term especially when you get a wavemaker going. If you want to go cheap, Koralias or Modded maxijets can work well too, just no wavemaking, but a ton cheaper.

 

[Anonymous]

Whoo-hoo! Two people I hoped would feed in.

You are probably right Tom, there are many different ways to setup tanks. But, for what are describing you can most certainly get away with lower flow than what is common in SPS dominated tanks. I seem to get the best expansion and growth for my LPS with lower light and non-turbulent flow. My rics and zoas do better with higher flow and light. I would think in your proposed setup the clams would be the 'high mark' your lighting would have to cover.

Thanks Tracy! I'm hoping that 150W MHs will let me keep clams and not melt the shrooms and yumas. I seem to remember that some Rics did well in my last tank (250W MHs), but others never took off (one particularly nice pink ric just melted away). But on the other hand, that tank was 24" high, not 18"/20". Hmmm. I guess the shrooms could go in shaded areas. Do you find your LPS do well under your MH (what wattage was yours again?)? I'm thinking some Chalice corals, Blastos, Acans, maybe even a Hammer and Scoly or something similar. I was assuming they'd do well under 150w MHs, but do you think that's correct?

Ok first questions first...

You mentioned cost, not spending unnecessary money. Does this mean you have equipment or do you just mean not getting "random" really cool but ultimately unnecessary stuff?

Lighting on a 36-40" long tank you really should go for 2 halides, I concur on some T5 actinic (or ATi Blue+ bulbs). You mentioned fixture issues? What issues do we have?

Also any chance for a wooden canopy to make it look like furniture? You can get away with fixture issues by simply going the DIY route, buy your own reflectors, ballasts, etc, for some reason the fixture tends to double or triple the price of the individual components.

Flow I think you can easily get away with MP10s, they put out 1500gph each, which would put you in the range of 30-50x turnover rate, although that's kind of a useless term especially when you get a wavemaker going. If you want to go cheap, Koralias or Modded maxijets can work well too, just no wavemaking, but a ton cheaper.

Sorry Mike, should have been clearer. I will be starting from scratch, which is part of what worries me. Much as it's possible to put together a spreadsheet showing things I'm likely to have to buy, I know that there are things I'm missing or not counting because they are small expenses, but which will add to my budget anyway. So I should try and avoid spending top dollar when I either don't need to, or in any case it isn't the best option.

The equipment issue is a really tricky one for me. My wife both wants me not to spend too much money, but also wants me to have equipment (particularly the visible stuff) that looks stylish and presentable. My instinct is always to go for the best I can afford (actually, usually just over that

) and I lack your DIY skills. Actually, for that matter, any DIY skills whatsoever...

The fixture issue is only that all-in-one fixtures all seem too pricey for me, which is what drew me to the pendants option (but unfortunately then means I can't have T5s easily). But maybe what I could do is see whether the company I'm going to try and get my tank and cabinet from could also produce a canopy for me. They don't have them on their site, but maybe they could recommend someone that could do it for me. Trouble is, I don't think the Japanese go for DIY with their tanks quite as much (nor, from looking at aquarist magazines, do they tend to go for canopies - usually the lighting is exposed). So unless I can persuade the company I'm likely to end up buying most of my supplies from to also send me a canopy (either Premium Aquatics or Marine Depot if PA doesn't ship overseas), then I may end up being without actinics, which would be a bit of a pity with LPS/zoas/shrooms etc.

I was looking at the Koralia/modded Maxijet option as well, but it was the lack of wavemaking that kind of put me off. I also played with the idea of a Tunze Nano wavebox, but the idea of water slopping backwards and forwards doesn't appeal, even though that water movement for corals does. Maybe I'll go back to the Koralia/modded Maxijet option if I end up blowing my budget elsewhere (or it gets cut from under me!). But the MP10 x 2 option appeals most. To get the broad flow with a neat looking, small option with a controllable wave is appealing. Maybe, given what Craig says, I'll keep my eye on feedback on the MP10s, to see whether quite the number of problems the first waves of the MP40s had. If not, they look like an Aston Martin (if not Rolls Royce ) option.

I'm also thinking about skimming. Currently focussed on the Octopus Extreme line, but this is, in part, a hangover from when I was considering an SPS tank. Maybe it might be more than I need for a tank with these sorts of occupants, ones that might actually benefit from trace amounts of nutrients.

I'm also planning one of those drop-in refugia. I bought one for the last tank after I had set it up, only to find that there was, of course, no way to fit it into the sump once the tank was full of water. But plan to install it before it's too late this time. Fill it with a mixture of live rock rubble and macro to provide some snacking opportunities for the inhabitants that like to have plankton-type food.

If I can, I also want a BTA. Hope that doesn't make any of these requirements any different...

 

[Anonymous]

Ok well first things first, are you going to buy stuff there? or order it online? You might want to leave some serious wiggle room since Japan isn't exactly known for cheap, even though you're a short plane ride over into the land of the outsourced labor of the world.

As to what your wife wants, that might change your plans dramatically I've seen "Japanese style" tanks, and they are definitely unique compared to what we have over here in the US. Not sure how much wiggle room you'll have in layout or what not. And I'm really not the person to comment on how to set up one of those types of tanks. If that's what your wife wants I don't know if you can do that very cheap, multiple lights, rimless design, etc.

Try to get an idea about what you'll do as far as tank/stand/canopy(if any) then you can much better plan what will fit inside of that. If you're going to do hanging pendants and the like that's fine, but then think about how you'll hang them, some sort of truss, or wires from the ceiling. Again make sure to get the wife's ok on what you plan on doing before you buy it and have her tell you no I've notice in some Japanese tanks they do many different types of lighting to give various spot light effects of various colors around the tank, they basically don't go for the "big efficient reflector with one bulb" look. Also how much is electricity over there? Might end up spending too much money without buying very much stuff if your electric bills are sky high each month.

The MP10s would be the slickest option because they really are a small profile in the tank, heck I didn't realize how small my MP40s were until I put a Koralia4 in the tank as a replacement while one was getting fixed. But at $200 a pop, they'll cost you for that option.

Skimming you probably can afford to not buy the best skimmer out there, especially if you keep up on water changes (or watch out for the floors, especially if they're nice wood ones... your wife will kill you if one drop of water gets on one ). Again this goes to the whole "think about your stand/tank/canopy first" because you might have height restrictions. But my softie tank I have a relatively crappy skimmer, ASM G3, and they seem to be fine, in fact the more weedy the coral (i.e. undesirable they are) they better they grow... but that is the definition of a weed isn't it? .

I'm not sure how large of a fuge will provide snacks... this is really an area I'd like to listen to an expert about, I have this sinking suspicion though that in order to really provide any sort of non-negligible food source you need a huge fuge... but I could be wrong on this.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Mike. Appreciate you taking the time to talk me through this.

I'm most likely to order the vast majority of my equipment from the US. The only real exceptions to this rule will be the tank/stand/sump and any food/small items that I need as I go along. The voltage is more or less the same (working without a transformer) and, even with the cost of shipping, it still works out as a lot cheaper than buying things locally (where one 150w MH pendant (albeit with ballast built in) is likely to set you back $800). The only trouble with this approach is finding a vendor that is willing to ship overseas and one that sells a broad enough range of equipment for me to be able to buy all I need in one place. Last time I used Marine Depot, but I also like the look of Premium Aquatic's range and pricing. I'll sound them out on shipping etc once I'm actually in country. The other drawback is a niggling concern I have about shipping fluorescent tubes across the Pacific (won't they break?). Another reason to go halide! I don't seem to remember seeing T5s over there and I can't see T5 fixtures for sale on the websites, so getting spares would be a hassle as well.

I'd be keen to go for the style of tank you see in the US as well, not the Japanese style barebottom tanks with colored spots. They just don't appeal. Actually, a lot of Japanese aquarists go for the DSB mixed tank as well, but their tanks don't tend to get seen in the US (I guess because they're not such a novelty). I'll be able to get the sand I need in Japan.

Oh, and good point about lighting options. Last time I bought a kind of hanging frame they sell over there, which worked pretty well for pendants. A lot easier than having to persuade a landlord in Japanese to let me fix wires to their ceiling! On electricity, I will be in the lucky position that my employer will be paying for my utility bills. 8)

My wife's major concerns will be, as you say, that I don't spill salt water (she's already saying that the tank will have to be on separate carpet), nor use any of our kitchen bowls etc for holding frags etc! :lol: Also that I don't spend too much. But I will be playing the usual difficult balancing game of honestly telling her what the whole set up will cost, but perhaps a little disingenuously not including the costs of sand, live rock, coral, fish, extra tools etc...

She's already said that I will have to buy in stages (wisely), so I'll likely buy the tank and stand first and have loads of time to work out what will best fit. But having a good idea about what sort of set up I want will also help me know what I can afford/what best suits in terms of tank! A bit chicken and egg really.

I'm sure you're right about the fuge. My dream tank has a fuge twice to thrice the size above it! But I own this inline acrylic fuge and I might give it a go anyway. If it's only enough to meet 5% of the nutritional needs of the plankton grazers, but keeps their environment a little bit more natural/stimulating, it might be worth it (I'm sceptical it'll even be that, but we'll see...). Also, I'll see about creating some LR piles where the interior is inaccessible and see if that helps. Maybe also one of those hang on jobbies?

As for the skimmer, I'll look at options later, but I guess I can afford to go for something that is actually rated for close to the size of the tank I eventually buy, rather than something overrated, as you might do for a SPS tank.

Thanks again.

 

[Anonymous]

I take it back about the T5. Just been on the website of my favorite LFS and they're selling them now, in limited amounts. No purely T5 fixtures as yet - it must be because of the MH/T5 fixtures they are selling from Red Sea etc...

 

[Anonymous]

If I can, I also want a BTA. Hope that doesn't make any of these requirements any different...

Well buddy, they do tend to wander and cause havoc in reef tanks. Talk the wife into a separate tank with a nice rose BTA and a pair of these

No, wait that's a dream tank of mine disregard

 

[Anonymous]

I know what you mean, but I figure I can take that risk, perhaps with some measures to dissipate it (I've been reading up on BTA placement tips). I know it's not foolproof, but on the other hand, there are a lot of nice reef tanks out there with BTAs in them. I have this theory (more a hunch really) that too much flow could actually make them wander. Find them a nice rocky hollow with broad, but not too strong flow and they might be happy...

 

[Anonymous]

Tom, I am running my current tank (800mm deep) as a LPS/nennie tank with 2 250w MH and 4 T5s (the 80w ones), its been more than adequate for my needs. for a 500mm deep tank, 150w MHs will be more than adequate IMHO unless you plan on SPS. I also run a lot less flow than many of the systems here, again with few issues. Thats all going to change with the new system and the combo sump/ pool pumps. The new tank will only have 3 250 MHs but will have 12 80w T5s. (Still low when you consider its size) I am building a DIY hood for the lighting.

(Tagging along to pick up some tips)

 

[Anonymous]

I know what you mean, but I figure I can take that risk, perhaps with some measures to dissipate it (I've been reading up on BTA placement tips). I know it's not foolproof, but on the other hand, there are a lot of nice reef tanks out there with BTAs in them. I have this theory (more a hunch really) that too much flow could actually make them wander. Find them a nice rocky hollow with broad, but not too strong flow and they might be happy...

Well, the logical thing would be to add it first so it finds 'the spot' it wants. But, BTAs really need a well established tank to succeed so that's not really practical.

 

[Anonymous]

I know what you mean, but I figure I can take that risk, perhaps with some measures to dissipate it (I've been reading up on BTA placement tips). I know it's not foolproof, but on the other hand, there are a lot of nice reef tanks out there with BTAs in them. I have this theory (more a hunch really) that too much flow could actually make them wander. Find them a nice rocky hollow with broad, but not too strong flow and they might be happy...

Well, the logical thing would be to add it first so it finds 'the spot' it wants. But, BTAs really need a well established tank to succeed so that's not really practical.

Indeed. It'll be a bit of craps shoot and I probably won't make my mind about whether to add one or not just before I do so. Do you know whether they're a problem in terms of fish deaths? I hadn't thought so (carpets being the main no-no for tanks with gobies etc), but maybe I should do some fresh research to remind myself...

 

[Anonymous]

Hmmm. I wonder if this might be a moderately priced way of getting a stylish MH/T5 combo. It looks like it might be a bit more affordable than others.

http://www.aqua-medic.com/Spacelight_EX.shtml

 

[Anonymous]

I like the looks of that fixture. Question, how are you figuring out what's available over there in terms of equipment?

 

[Anonymous]

I like the looks of that fixture. Question, how are you figuring out what's available over there in terms of equipment?

What's particularly attractive is that, by the looks of things, the price includes the ballast - not the case with most sleek fixtures and the main reason I wasn't looking at them before. Two mini pendants plus a dual ballast plus bulbs equated in price to the cost of one of those fixtures alone a lot of the time.

In terms of how I'm researching Japanese fixture options, I have various LFS in Tokyo on my favorites list at home. There unfortunately doesn't appear to be the equivalent of the internet retailers you get in the US (only private individuals selling through eBay etc). I also often buy aquarium magazines while I'm in Japan and scan the adverts for retailers.

Here's one. Not sure if you'll be able to navigate around, so second link is the equipment page and third link is the metal halide lighting page.

http://www.natyu.ne.jp/blog/welcome

http://www.natyu.ne.jp/supply.html

http://www.natyu.ne.jp/supply.html;jsessionid=E43B2DB987C52E8F780ED22B85A96D94?id=303