I have a 55 gal. tank.about 80 lbs LR running for about a year.I am taking out CC and putting in aragonite.Most of the CC is gone and there is 20 lbs of aragonite put in about 2 weeks ago,and probably going to add another 30 lbs.I am doing a little at a time. Nitrates have always been high 60-100. For the most part livestock including most corals are doing fine.Could the problem be with the cannister filter ? I have a Fluval 304 with 2 compartments with chemi-pure carbon and 2 compartments with bio-balls.Any suggestions? I also have a seaclone 150 skimmer. Thanks
high nitrates
- Thread starter zibnata
- Start date
Hey Zib, I am in your same boat as well man. I have a 65G tank that has been going for about 2 years as a fish only tank. I just recently decided to step into the reef. With that said I just updated my lighting and have added a protein skimmer. I have also slowly added more LR, but have one problem that we have in common. High Nitrates ... though they're coming down with frequent H20 changes, but not like I want them to introduce corals. THey're at 10 ppm and am striving for less that 1ppm.... aren't we all? Also, I have heard that crushed coral as your substrate is a no go in reef life.... I am switching to live sand this weekend and am most interested in the feedback you get. I hope you don't mind that I added to your original request.... Another thing is that bio balls could be a nitrate generating vehicle... it's not the bio balls themselves, rather the slime that is accumilated overtime. It's a good idea to clean them, or maybe overtime slowly remove them and count on the life growing on your LR as a substitute... Let's see what the pros say...hmmm. :wink:
Achilles, I cant beleive that the following corals are thriving: mushrooms,anthelia,corky finger.gorgonians,bubble,alvepora and clam. I recently lost a plate,but I hear that they are hard to keep. Anthelia and mushrooms are spreading.By theory with the nitrates I have nothing should survive. I dont get it.Since I did some Sand changeover there is no difference in the nitrate readings.Should I remove Bio-Balls ?
Here is my thought on canister filters.
I am not of the school of thought that says all canisters are evil, they are nitrate factories etc etc
I think canisters can be used as long as they are cleaned regularly. Mine does a wonderful job of clearing up the water when I put a cartridge in it. The only thing I have found is that IMO the carbon part of the filter needs to be rinsed or changed more frequently than the directions say. Mine said to Change them once a month, I found that by rinsing the crud that collects in it every week and changing it once a month, I was fine.
My filter does not have bioballs though, for that part someone else will have to reply
HTH
Bryan
I am not of the school of thought that says all canisters are evil, they are nitrate factories etc etc
I think canisters can be used as long as they are cleaned regularly. Mine does a wonderful job of clearing up the water when I put a cartridge in it. The only thing I have found is that IMO the carbon part of the filter needs to be rinsed or changed more frequently than the directions say. Mine said to Change them once a month, I found that by rinsing the crud that collects in it every week and changing it once a month, I was fine.
My filter does not have bioballs though, for that part someone else will have to reply
HTH
Bryan
Knuklehead, Do you empty the filter and wash it out completely? I put in chemi-clean carbon last time,its supposed to last for a few months. Do you find that to be true ? thanks
Anyone have the answer of wether or not to take out the bio-balls and just leave in the carbon or leave carbon and bio-balls? Thanks
Anyone have the answer of wether or not to take out the bio-balls and just leave in the carbon or leave carbon and bio-balls? Thanks
Zib, I just got back from a shop where this guy who has a beautiful 55G reef show 'stocked' tank told me:
1) Slowly get rid of your bio-balls... they are a nitrate factory... as you get rid of you bio-balls substitute Live Rock if you can afford it.
bacteria will start to be housed by the live rock and not the bio-balls. In the meantime, don't add any livestock.
2) After he found out that I had crushed coral, he freaked and said - GET RID OF IT !!! Crushed Coral hides some nasty nitrate generating stuff (proteins/food) that wlll never get filtered/syphoned out... sand is the best option.
3) He said that if I were to spend the money, get a real good skimmer...
To sum it up, this guy has a show tank and all he has running is an empty sump with the pump for the return and a good skimmer. that's his mechanical filtration, while his biological filtration is the Life on the Live Rock... That's this guys advice.... well, as this is not an exact science this is what seemed to work for him... I will tell you though, I have heard this same thing many times... Knuckhead, what do you think of the comments????
Achilles.
1) Slowly get rid of your bio-balls... they are a nitrate factory... as you get rid of you bio-balls substitute Live Rock if you can afford it.
bacteria will start to be housed by the live rock and not the bio-balls. In the meantime, don't add any livestock.
2) After he found out that I had crushed coral, he freaked and said - GET RID OF IT !!! Crushed Coral hides some nasty nitrate generating stuff (proteins/food) that wlll never get filtered/syphoned out... sand is the best option.
3) He said that if I were to spend the money, get a real good skimmer...
To sum it up, this guy has a show tank and all he has running is an empty sump with the pump for the return and a good skimmer. that's his mechanical filtration, while his biological filtration is the Life on the Live Rock... That's this guys advice.... well, as this is not an exact science this is what seemed to work for him... I will tell you though, I have heard this same thing many times... Knuckhead, what do you think of the comments????
Achilles.
Hey, it's what works that matters. It was just someones opinion. What I meant by the LR was to replace the bioballs with the LR in the tank, not the canister. I was waiting to see what Knucklehead thoughs were... Hey Zib, we're doing the same chores this weekend... I am getting rid of all my CC and getting Live sand? Hey man, can you tell me about argonite sand?? maybe a good place to go read about it and why choose it? Don't know much about live sand other than it's better for reef. anything would help...
Welcome, zibnata and Achilles!
First, your observations of your animals are one of your best indicators of true health. If they're thriving, then I would look to anomalies/problems with the test kit itself. (In other words, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.) Your canister can either help or hurt, your animals are healthy so it can't be that bad. I also wouldn't simply get rid of the cc, but would put the new substrate in pantyhose and place where there's good circulation so it can become sufficiently seeded.
Second, the thing about bioballs being "nitrate factories" is at best a bit of a misnomer. As we look at the cycle of ammonia oxidation (nitrification) we see that there will only be enough end result (nitrate) as there was "food" to go into it in the first place. In other words, you will end up with significant nitrate readings because there were significant amounts of ammonia (due to many things--bioload, detritus, etc.) to begin with. If you address those start point nutrients, the end point becomes moot. I hope that made sense. Basically, it means that the bioballs are doing there job, which must be done. This is where something like foam fractionation makes a lot of sense.
Third, clams are actually helpful in "filtration" of nitrogenous compounds.
Fourth, if you have addressed initial nutrient export issues, a DSB and refugium would be my next suggestion. In my opinion, unless you're in a big hurry, there's no reason to lay out the cashola for live sand. Place it in the system and let it become seeded. I will very strongly push a 'fuge, actually, as you can get it going with macros, you will end up with a little "pod factory" that will feed your filter feeding wards quite well, and if it's going well enough you can get rid of the skimmer and the canister (should you wish). The point of removing those forms of filtration would be to preserve the microscopic life that would feed these filter feeding animals. Aragorn has had his reefs set up this way, practically from the beginning, and they are thriving as well.
In order for a deep sand be to denitrify it'll need to be sufficiently deep. Most agree that this means at least 3" (depending on grain size, of course). Based upon the experience of others/observations, I will suggest going with either a mix of sand and cc in the 1-2mm range, or entirely with the cc of that size, and making the bed deeper, on the order of 5"-6", to achieve sufficiently anaerobic areas.
HTH!
First, your observations of your animals are one of your best indicators of true health. If they're thriving, then I would look to anomalies/problems with the test kit itself. (In other words, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.) Your canister can either help or hurt, your animals are healthy so it can't be that bad. I also wouldn't simply get rid of the cc, but would put the new substrate in pantyhose and place where there's good circulation so it can become sufficiently seeded.
Second, the thing about bioballs being "nitrate factories" is at best a bit of a misnomer. As we look at the cycle of ammonia oxidation (nitrification) we see that there will only be enough end result (nitrate) as there was "food" to go into it in the first place. In other words, you will end up with significant nitrate readings because there were significant amounts of ammonia (due to many things--bioload, detritus, etc.) to begin with. If you address those start point nutrients, the end point becomes moot. I hope that made sense. Basically, it means that the bioballs are doing there job, which must be done. This is where something like foam fractionation makes a lot of sense.
Third, clams are actually helpful in "filtration" of nitrogenous compounds.
Fourth, if you have addressed initial nutrient export issues, a DSB and refugium would be my next suggestion. In my opinion, unless you're in a big hurry, there's no reason to lay out the cashola for live sand. Place it in the system and let it become seeded. I will very strongly push a 'fuge, actually, as you can get it going with macros, you will end up with a little "pod factory" that will feed your filter feeding wards quite well, and if it's going well enough you can get rid of the skimmer and the canister (should you wish). The point of removing those forms of filtration would be to preserve the microscopic life that would feed these filter feeding animals. Aragorn has had his reefs set up this way, practically from the beginning, and they are thriving as well.
In order for a deep sand be to denitrify it'll need to be sufficiently deep. Most agree that this means at least 3" (depending on grain size, of course). Based upon the experience of others/observations, I will suggest going with either a mix of sand and cc in the 1-2mm range, or entirely with the cc of that size, and making the bed deeper, on the order of 5"-6", to achieve sufficiently anaerobic areas.
HTH!
zibnata":2ewjqwqk said:
I was completely cleaning mine out, but all it holds is the carbon, then I would rinse the carbon and reuse it.
Achilles_Tang":2ewjqwqk said:
This is all really good advice.
zibnata":2ewjqwqk said:
The live rock goes in your tank or in your sump, and it will cause a cycle to start if you add too much at once.
And I agree with everything Seamaiden said, she has way more experience than me.
Good luck with your tanks
Bryan
Only by building one of your own. 2" won't give you denitrification, though. Also, cure your live rock in a trash can, not in the tank (this qualifies as a quarantine, too, btw), then add it to your system at once and you'll be golden. (Assuming you've found any unwanted hitchhikers during curing.)
seamaiden, though an elementary question can you tell me what actually 'curing' live rock does??? I buy my LR at the local fish store and they say, that tank is for cured LR and that other one isn't??? Hmm. I really don't know the difference. Can I physically look at LR and tell?
If done properly, there is no difference between cured and fresh, uncured LR. See, the curing process preserved almost all the living thing on a freshly harvested LR if it done ideally.
Most likely, the uncured LR will have some nasty smell, while cured LR will smell like... sea breeze
Most likely, the uncured LR will have some nasty smell, while cured LR will smell like... sea breeze
It mostly has to do with the fact that the rock, with its concurrent denizens, is shipped in a damp state. If it were shipped submerged, it would not only be far more expensive, but tends to show a higher rate of die-off (fouling of water from dying specimens).
Thus, curing live rock is the process by which you resubmerge the rock, remove rotting matter, and hopefully preserve as much life as possible in and on it. Many folks get the curing process confused with cycling a system, which is the establishment of nitrifying bacteria. Two completely separate occurrences, IMO.
What Mr. Pea/DavidM is referring to is performing a cure process that allows much life to remain instead of dying off. The best means to achieve this are combining large and copious water changes with outrageous foam fractionation to remove as much waste (that in turn decomposes into nitrogenous wastes) as possible.
Hope that makes some sense!
Thus, curing live rock is the process by which you resubmerge the rock, remove rotting matter, and hopefully preserve as much life as possible in and on it. Many folks get the curing process confused with cycling a system, which is the establishment of nitrifying bacteria. Two completely separate occurrences, IMO.
What Mr. Pea/DavidM is referring to is performing a cure process that allows much life to remain instead of dying off. The best means to achieve this are combining large and copious water changes with outrageous foam fractionation to remove as much waste (that in turn decomposes into nitrogenous wastes) as possible.
Hope that makes some sense!
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