Bio-balls

[Anonymous]

Ok, So I have bioballs in my sump. I understand the potential for Nitrites. My question is why wouldn't LR in the sump (potentially) cause higher nitrites?

Both are esentially surface area for bacteria growth, so should the bacteria notice any difference between the two?

Also, my bioballs are not submersed in the sump. They sit in an egg crate set up above the water level in the sump. The overflow flows over them to soften the sound and prevent losta bubbles from entering the skimmer pump and return pump. Will this minimalize my potential for Nitrate Probs?

90 reef (very low bio-load right now) w/ sump and skimmer
~ 100 lbs live rock + 2-3" sand bed.

 

[insearch]

I think Len or Chris could probubly answer this better but my understanding is that LR has a denitrification proprty to it where bio balls do not. Bioballs are a home for you benifical bacteria whitch converts amonia to nitrites then to "nitrates". But it does nothing for denitrification. This is a gas exchange that happens in the LR.

 

[Anonymous]

I thought the conversion to nitrates required anerobic conditions?

May be totally off here...

 

[Anonymous]

Insearch got it pretty much right.

Live rock has anerobic areas where as bio balls on have aerobic area. You need both for denitrification, having on the aerobic give you potential nitrate problems.

 

[ChrisRD]

Looks like Insearch and Righty already gotcha covered.

I thought the conversion to nitrates required anerobic conditions?

<edit> Conversion of ammonia > nitrites > nitrates, aka nitrification, requires aerobic conditions (these conditions exist on the surface of live rock and live sandbeds). Conversion of nitrates to nitrogen gas, aka denitrification, requires anerobic conditions (these conditions exists within live rock and live sandbeds).<edit>

A good protein skimmer is also a good weapon (indirectly) against nitrate build-up because it removes dissolved organics before they are broken down (thereby producing ammonia --> nitrite --> nitrate).

 

[Anonymous]

What about not having your bio-balls submerged?

Not as much of a sink, or worse because of increased oxygen contact?

Should I slowly take them out and replace with LR?
Can I replace w/ pourous "dead" rock?

Probably should do nothing untill it becomes a problem.

 

[ChrisRD]

If you're not having a problem, you really don't have to do anything - just make sure no crud is building-up in the plastic media. Personally, I would ditch the bioballs because they're unnecessary and I like keeping things as simple as I can.

As far as having the bioballs submerged vs. up out of the water with constant flow over them - probably won't make much of a difference. Either way, it's just a pure aerobic filter because the media is non-porous - nowhere for anerobic conditions/bacteria to exist.

Basically, the bioballs are just providing some redudant aerobic filtration, but you already have more than enough live rock / live sand providing that.

HTH

 

[J.Howard]

You mean like this picture? I've been messing with the idea of removing them myself, but have lots of LR and sand and no nitrate problem. I like to keep 20-40% of mine submerged depending on evaporation for noise control and different oxygen exposure than those above the water. My sump has enough space to subdivide it with a fuge, or was thinking hang-on. I guess I am holding on to them for now since my system is fairly immature and I just added a nice shoal of 5 little green chromis, and want the extra mechanical filtration for a while till the system adjusts.

 

[Anonymous]

Very similar, but mine are 100% above water, and unfortunatly my balls are blue :lol:

I'm not gonna change anything untill it becomes a problem.

 

[J.Howard]

Very similar, but mine are 100% above water, and unfortunatly my balls are blue :lol:

Dood, sorry to hear about that. I've heard there's ways to solve that little problem quite easily. :wink:

 

[HClH2OFish]

Very similar, but mine are 100% above water, and unfortunatly my balls are blue :lol:

I'm not gonna change anything untill it becomes a problem.

Isn't that description, by definition, a problem?? :lol: :lol:

 

[Bojangles]

So if you took out your bio media and exchanged it for a bunch of LR. Wouldn't that reduce water flow in the sump and essecially a haven for debris? Anyone mind posting their experience


Ty

 

[ChrisRD]

Sure, that could happen. Personally, I would remove the bioballs and just leave the wet/dry filter as an empty sump. In this case, there's already plenty of liverock in the system and more in the sump really isn't needed.

If you wanted to add liverock to a sump and wanted to avoid this, one option would be to partition things off so that the tank drain was emptying into a settling chamber first where detritus could settle (to be syphoned off during water changes). The rock could then be in the next compartment where it would be less likely to see an accumulation of crud.

 

[Anonymous]

Looks like Insearch and Righty already gotcha covered.

I thought the conversion to nitrates required anerobic conditions?

It does, and these conditions exists within live rock and live sandbeds.

A good protein skimmer is also a good weapon (indirectly) against nitrate build-up because it removes dissolved organics before they are broken down (thereby producing ammonia --> nitrite --> nitrate).

Chris, not to be contrary, but nitrate production is the final result of the oxidation of ammonia (NH3), a.k.a. nitrification, and is an entirely aerobic function.
DEnitrification, a process by which nitrate is further broken apart and one end result of which is pure nitrogen is indeed an anaerobic function.

 

[Anonymous]

I've been messing with the idea of removing them myself, but have lots of LR and sand and no nitrate problem. <snip> My sump has enough space to subdivide it with a fuge, or was thinking hang-on. I guess I am holding on to them for now since my system is fairly immature and I just added a nice shoal of 5 little green chromis, and want the extra mechanical filtration for a while till the system adjusts.

Number one rule: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Number two: bioballs are not meant for mechanical filtration. As Chris said, if they become filled with debris, that's a recipe for nitrate issues. I can't recommend strongly enough a refugium, as large as you can make it (about 1/3 the tank volume is a good place to start).

Bojangles, to answer your question about replacing with live rock, yes, if care is not taken to ensure that good water flow remains debris/detrital accumulation will indeed be a problem. (Good question!) This can be alleviated with the addition of or adjustment to circulation such that no pockets are allowed to form. Also, ensuring that the rock is situated in such a manner that allows water to flow freely all around is very helpful.

I would not use dead/non-live rock for this replacement of biomedia. I would suspect that it doesn't have the well-developed colonies of anaerobic bacteria deep within its "tissues" that good live rock will have. Another addition to consider is that of macroalgae to help with nutrient export via harvest (I've always had great luck with Caulerpa for this - harvest of this genus must be performed in a particular manner, though).

 

[ChrisRD]

Chris, not to be contrary, but nitrate production is the final result of the oxidation of ammonia (NH3), a.k.a. nitrification, and is an entirely aerobic function.
DEnitrification, a process by which nitrate is further broken apart and one end result of which is pure nitrogen is indeed an anaerobic function.

Yup, you're absolutely right, I just misread the poster's question with a "from" where the "to" is (ie. I was thinking conversion from nitrates to nitrogen gas):

I thought the conversion to nitrates required anerobic conditions?

...sorry browncj7... ...sometimes i scan through this forum a little too quickly...

 

[Anonymous]

Ok Ok Ok

To make this clear for myself and others.

1)
NH4+(ammonia) + 2 H2O(water) >>> NO2-(nitrite) + 8 H+(hydrogen ions)

Bactria Oxidize Ammonia (aerobic)

2)
NO2-(nitrite) + H2O(water) >>> NO3-(nitrate) + 2 H+(hydrogen ions)

Bacteria Oxidize Nitrite (aerobic)

3)
NO3- then is anaerobicly broken down into elemental nitrogen



Hopefully everyone who didn't know this before has learned something!



Thanks in part to: http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/cycling2.htm and google.com. They were a great place to cut and paste from!

 

[Baianotang]

IMO they are of no use and a waste of money, as they are even expencive...

 

[Anonymous]

mine came w/ a used system...
Just left 'em there.