Detrivore Kits and Refugiums

[Mouse51180]

I have recently setup an 80 gallon saltwater aquarium and not sure if I want it to be a fish only tank or put coral in it later.

I DO know that I want to put two dragonets in it. I was told that I needed to buy a detrivore kit to keep them fed and then the more I search I was told to setup a refugium to keep more food for them.

The main reason I bought the tank I bought was because everything is hidden and I mean EVERYTHING. I see two tubes and my power heads and that is it. I liked this becasue I am not looking at cords or hangon over flow boxes or listening to small waterfalls in my tank and the whole setup is jsut very clean and neat and very attractive. I have enve had my friends tell me they like my aquarium much more then others they have seen because of these facts.

This brings me to my questions....With my dragonets...cant I just supply them with the frozen cubes or do I really need to buy this detrivore kit. From the pictures I have seen the detrivore kits just make the tank look unkept up. I dont know if I am just looking at the wrong pictures or what, but little critters stuck to the side of the glass is not my idea of a nice looking tank. As for the refugium...pretty much the same question. Do I really need this or if I put a little more effort into my tank and I get around not having this? If I do have this I am going to have to configure this somehow to run from below my tank.

Thanks for any advise you can give me.
Mouse

 

[DaisyPolyp]

FWIW it sounds like you would be happiest with a fish-only system, unfortunatly this is not the best environment for a dragonet. Because the dragonets eat constantly and it is nearly impossible to get them trained on frozen foods, they are best attempted in a hands-off type full-reef tank (prefferably with refugium).
IMO you will have much better luck changing your fish selection to fit your tank versus changing your tank setup to fit your fish. There are a lot of attractive specis out there for a F/O tank.

 

[Anonymous]

I would only try one manderin in that size tank.

The "pods" are the part of the kit you want for fish food. Amphipods, cocopeds, mysis shrimp and other little bugs are what your manderin will eat. The micro-stars and mini-brittle stars are for cleaning purposes only. They are interesing to look at in their own right.

I got my kit from inlandreef. I have a 3 year old manderin in a 75G that is connected to a well stocked refugium. The refugium gives the "bugs" a place to multiply without prediation and enough of them wind up in the main tank to feed the manderin.

I am lucky that my manderin does on occasion eat frozen foods.

Louey

 

[krullulon]

i think for a coral aquarium it's very difficult to emphasize aesthetics over function because the ecosystem you're building is so complex -- it's a chaotic system with many dependencies that's difficult to predict. one week it might be hair algae making your tank ugly, the next week diatoms, the following week something else... and when these events happen you don't have the luxury of pulling everything out of the tank and disinfecting it, so you'll be dealing with "ugly tank syndrome" for a period of weeks or months while you gradually tweak what's going on. snails on the glass are much more of a blessing than a burden in this world. most folks who go the reef route embrace the tons of tiny crawly things as a key part of making the whole puzzle fit together.

the beautiful reef aquariums you see on sites like advanceaquarist.com are generally from folks who have been doing it for a very long time and have mature systems, and extensive "back room" equipment and a lot of elbow grease that keeps everything humming.

 

[Mouse51180]

Thanks for all the great suggestions. As for the Detrivore kit....I have seen a couple at three different web sites, but most of them seem to be pick what you want and piece your own "kit" together....I dont know what I want or what I need...

Can any of you help with this question?

 

[rabagley]

Well, you've chosen one of the more challenging marine fish to keep and if you're up to the challenge, I congratulate you!

The perfect food for mandarins is copepods and amphipods. What you need is to create save havens where that live food can grow and reproduce without the mandarin being able to chow down on them. These refuges can be carefully stacked piles of smaller rocks (pod-piles) in the main tank or it can be a separate environment, connected only to the main tank via plumbing. Pod-piles aren't always asthetically pleasing in the main tank and can also be knocked over by food seeking crabs and sea stars, so unless they happen naturally, you won't see too many in the typical reef tank.

Because these "refugium" spaces can get rather large (especially to feed a demanding fish like a mandarin) many reefkeepers tend to eschew the too-small "hang on tank" refugiums and hide the a second tank below the main tank called a "sump". Within the sump you can attach filters, reactors, sensors, etc. and still have plenty of space left over for a refugium. Here's a page with plenty of info on sumps http://www.melevsreef.com including various reasons why, how to build them, how not to build them, etc.

Personally, I prefer having the entire cabinet filled with the sump and most of the sump occupied by the refugium. Leave about 12" between the top of the sump and the ceiling of the cabinet and pack as much water in the rest of it as you can. This gives my refugium a lot of volume. That volume means it can provide a lot of natural live food for the main tank.

Assuming you go with a separate refugium of decent volume (10gal minimum for one mandarin), figure out what you're going to put in it. Two inches of sugar sand, a few pieces of decent live rock and a live sand culture makes a good start for a refugium. The live sand will contain lots of different critters to keep the sand mixed up and stop gunk from making the sand murky and poisonous. This should include tiny snails, tiny sea stars, and crustaceans like the copepods we're so interested in, among other things.

You can get live sand from a lot of places, but the best place may be a cup of sand from each of a few established reef tanks. If there aren't a lot of reefers near you, buy some live sand after establishing that the seller thinks there's more than bacteria in live sand. As an aside, some sellers are badly misinformed on this subject and will insist that their bacteria laden sand is "live". That may be, but it's not live enough for what you want.

Next, some larger snails, hermit crabs, and a shrimp or two if you've got the volume. If you don't see copepods and/or amphipods appearing on the walls in a month or so, you may want to add a copepod culture to your refugium to give that population a kick in the pants. You'll need to be feeding the refugium after you start seeing small creatures swimming about. The critters in your refugium basically want phytoplankton, so that's what you'll need to feed them. I like DT's phytoplankton, but it can be more expensive than other products, so shop around for tiny, tiny marine food (particle sizes of 10um and smaller). In addition to live products, there are also some decent manufactured products (golden pearls are rumored to be effective and nutritious, though I've never tried them).

Once the refugium (and the main tank) are crawling with little crustaceans (two-three months at a minimum, six would be better), you can add your mandarin who will then have plenty of food, assuming the various copepod breeding grounds are large enough.

If you simply must have your mandarin sooner than that, you can supplement the refugium output with freshly hatched brine shrimp. If the tank crashes for whatever reason, this is what you're going to be doing anyway, so it's probably not bad practice to figure out what to do and when. Having the supplies and equipment on hand will also make life easier later. Here's one of the better articles on the subject of hatching brine shrimp: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... reeder.htm Google for more of them to get some different setups. You'll be starting a culture every day for a while to keep the mandarin fed. Older brine shrimp can be soaked in nutrient supplements (like Selcon) and fed to the fish, but getting freshly hatched shrimp in the tank is highly preferred, so you'll be a little busy while this is going on.

Keep us all posted and don't be afraid to ask questions...

Regards,
Ross

 

[MI0706]

FWIW, I have two dragonets in my 55 gallon... I've had one for about 4 months now and the other for about 2 months now... One is a green spot mandarin and the other is a scooter blenny...

Before I added (2 months prior) my green spot mandarine, I went to Inland aquatics and got their mysis/pod seeding kit... Keep in mind that this is in supplement to the already 6+ inch sand bed in my tank... I made sure that my tank had a huge pod colony...

After the green spot was in there for a month or so, I added a fuge... I then went back to Inland aquatics and got ther fauna/flora kit for the fuge and their detrivore kit for the fuge... These were added at the same time I added the DSB in the fuge... I let it run for a month or so to let it build its mysis/pod population... After that I added my scooter blenny...

I had read that the green spots are more prone to eat frozen foods so that is why I chose one of them... And my green spot I have seen from time to time eating the foods I add to the tank... The scooter has yet to even try any of the added food... I don't think he ever will...

So far though, both my dragonets are pretty fat and happy... I hope they stay this way... I'm planning on doing another mysis/pod seeding for my fuge this month just to make sure...

Hope this helps...

 

[Mouse51180]

Well I have a couple of issues...and a couple of question in reguards to the last two replies.

First to MI0706...What is a Fuge? I went to Inlads website again and looked at what you purchesed. Thanks for giving me an idea on what I would be buying...(which will probably be the same thing you bought since you seem to be doing so well with it).
My only problem is that I have 2 chromis (a.k.a. damsels) in the tank now. If I put all those little critters in the tank...will the chromis eat them all up before they have time to reproduce?

My second question for you is....you said that you were going to do another mysis/pod seeding to be safe....is seeding the live sand something that will need to be done once a month, once a quarter, once a year, or just once in general? in other words...will I be buying the mysis/pod kit time and time and time again over the next year or several years?

My question for Rabagely is....I have a sump...unfortunatly the sump can with the aquarium as a package deal and pretty much doesnt look like it can be altered so if I did a refugium I would need to run a powerhead from the sump into the refugium...then another powerhead from the refugium back into the sump for the water flow...after the water from the refugium with all the little critters gets into the sump it would be flushed back to the tank by a Mag 9.5 return pump. Will all the little critters be able to servive traveling through a power head AND a return pump...or will I jsut be spraying dead bugs back into my tank by the time the trip is all over?

 

[rabagley]

I have a sump...unfortunatly the sump can with the aquarium as a package deal and pretty much doesnt look like it can be altered so if I did a refugium I would need to run a powerhead from the sump into the refugium...then another powerhead from the refugium back into the sump for the water flow...after the water from the refugium with all the little critters gets into the sump it would be flushed back to the tank by a Mag 9.5 return pump. Will all the little critters be able to servive traveling through a power head AND a return pump...or will I jsut be spraying dead bugs back into my tank by the time the trip is all over?

If you want a good-sized refugium for your tank, I would replace your current sump with a larger sump that included a substantial refugium section already designed into it. If you just bought it... well...

As an aside, an ideal refugium is higher than main tank so that the refugium critters fall into the main tank through a drain and don't have to contend with even one pump. As you guessed, trips through pumps are hazardous to microfauna. The only real difficulty with putting a refugium over a tank is what the cabinetry will support while remaining attractive. Built-in tanks tend to have an advantage here that store bought tanks simply can't match.

For your situation, though, you're going to want a big refugium. The best refugium you're going to be able to put in a typical tank cabinet is designed into a sump that is also designed for the cabinet.

Regards,
Ross

 

[Bojangles]

I've been wanting to keep mandarins also and received some advice that I will pass on to you as a "possibility".

A person from this site, un named for their privacy, has kept very nice mandarins and I asked him his advice. he told me to use gravity instead of pumps in your fuge/sump. When the pods are actively moving they will be transported with the water to the main tank though this system.

If anyone has examples of their system that functions in this manner I would be most interested, as I'm sure the author would also.

 

[Anonymous]

Inland also carries a "inside the tank fuge". It's really pretty cool. I have a hot CPR fuge that I love. Tons of pods.

Also my scooter blenny does eat frozen, even table shrimp that has been ground up.
HTH

 

[Mouse51180]

I have a couple issues....
1) I cant put a fuge in my sump or replace the sump with a new sump that has a fuge because of the design of my tank. The water that gets sucked into the return pump is shot up a tube back into the tank...this is probably no different then everyone elses, but here is where my tank differs...I have a tube inside the return tube. At the top of the return tube I have seen most people have the snake looking piping...I have a type of bubble cap that shoots the water out in 4 different directions. Along with that some of the water gets sent down the tube that is inside my return tube and shot out the bottom grill near the base of the return tube. I know it is kinda hard to picture, but it really is an interesting design.
To sum up this issue...if I had the fuge in the sump all the critters would battle the return pump and then they would all clog up the bubble cap or the return filter cap if they made it past the pump. So either way it goes I have to have a seperate line feeding from the fuge back into the tank.

If your curious...here is a picture of my aqauarium from the manf. web site and shows the overflow and return with the bubble cap I mentioned earlier... http://www.marineland.com/products/cons ... ssuper.asp

2. This brings up setting the fuge above the tank. I can tell you....this isnt going to happen. I have no way of supporting another tank above this one. Nor would I want to. Too dangerous and too tacky for this setup. There is no way to make it look good and work properly...trust me...I have tried to find a way and it just isnt working. My big goal for this tank is to make it virtually silent and everythign but the fish and coral unseen.

3. I could try a hang on the back, but the aqauirum is faily close to the wall and I am not sure I could fit one back behind my aquarium.

4. I think the in-tank might be my best bet, but the only picture (from another manf. not inland aquatics) look so tiny...I dont know if I would get any benefit from it.

Any other suggestions or comments...please feel free to keep posting. Im still open for ideas.
Thanks,
Mouse

 

[Mouse51180]

What about these DIY in-tank fuge with the eggcrates? Anyone do this or has hard if these are good or not?

http://www.carlosreef.com/Intank_refugium.htm
http://www.ozreef.org/diy/refugium.html

 

[MI0706]

Ok mouse... Sorry for the long response time... I've been really busy here lately... I'll try to answer your questions to the best of my ability... However, keep in mind that these answers are in my opinion only and may be different than those of others on this board...

My fuge is a HOB fuge... It is the CPR aquafuge 24"... Its dimensions are 24" long, 12" tall, and 4" wide... Like you, my tanks' back sits pretty close to a wall... But this fuge was skinny enough for me to be able to put it on the back on my tank... This fuge is pump supplied and gravity fed back to the tank... With this fuge, I put 5lbs live sand in the bottom... Planted various types of Caulerpa macro-algae (most members here recommend Chaeto instead of Caulerpa)...

With the seeding of the tank with the mysis/pod kit... When I did it with the tank (at that time, I didn't have a fuge yet), I waited till night time when the lights were off (keeps fish, shrimp, etc. from eating them) and I turned off my overflow (so they wouldn't get sucked into the sump)... I waited about 4 hours and turned the overflow back on...

With the seeding of fuge with the mysis/pod kit... I turned off the flow to the fuge, turned the lights off and added the kit... Waited 24 hours prior to turning the fuge pump back on...

As to how often to seed the fuge/tank with the kit... I don't think there is a schedule to it... I mean, I can't tell you do it once a year, quarter, or month... I just look at my population at night time in the tank and in the fuge... If I see it heavily stocked (like it is now) I really don't need to add another kit... However, I really love my green spot and scooter blenny... I'm only doing it again "so soon" to make doubly sure they are getting all the food they need (which I think they both are because both of them have quite the belly now)...

With all the above kits, Inland aquatics will advise you on what they think is the best way to seed your tank or fuge... They are pretty knowledgable and are happy to answer questions to the best of their ability...

Hope this helps...

 

[Dubge]

I used a 10G rubbermaid trash barrel for my fuge. It is under the stand, water is pumped up from the sump into the fuge then I put a drain on it and it dumps back into the sump.

Do you have room to put something like that next to your sump?

 

[Mouse51180]

Well I think I figured a way on how to hook my fuge up to the sump and have it still work.

I looked at those HOB fuge from CPR and I dont have enough room in the back unless I take the water out and scoot it out form the wall some more.

I emailed Inland Aquatics about suggestions on seeding my sand twice and have yet to hear from them, so even if their product is super great...I think they have lost my buisness.

Right now im putting th fuge on hold for the time being. I am up in the air on how well my tank is doing right now so im just going to let it sit and see what it does over the next month befor I do anything else to it.

Thanks to everyone that posted.
Mouse

 

[jumboshrimp18]

Hi Mouse,
The above comments answered your queston better than I could. Do you already have the two Dragonets? If not, then one alone should be supported by your tank once it has matured a little. (two is iffy)
I like a clean tank look too but it becomes a hard thing acheive. Like to see a picture of your setup and the specs, if you want to share these with us.

 

[MI0706]

Mouse: I'm sorry to hear that Inland didn't reply to your emails... Since I live so close to them and am there atleast monthly, in their defense, I can tell you that they are extremely busy... Even as a walk-in (who happens to know the owner personally), I still normally have to wait a little bit to be able to talk to someone... Which is fine with me, because I always enjoy going into their back room and seeing the massive warehouse of fish, corals, and you name it growing in their tanks...

Also, you have already learned something that many many reefers still have yet to learn... You're being patient with your setup... I really like that you are waiting a month or so to see what happens!!!