Newb questions, benibac, rock, setup etc.

[Fishonthebrain]

Hello everyone,

I've got some questions that I feel sort of rediculous asking... please humor me.



So...I've been keeping fresh tanks for years and Im wondering about my cycled sand and lace rock in my fresh tanks, can't I just add this to my new salt tank to speed up the cycle?

I mean the benibac is the same exact stuff right? And lace rock is basically the same stuff as base rock, except mine has been sitting in a cycled fresh tank for a few years....

I guess I'm just wondering if the bacteria is the same or if it will die off being thrown in saltwater?

Also...the typical "fishless cycle" of a freshwater tank, can't I use this principle to "cycle" my own base rock in a trickle filter?

Basically, add a bunch of small pieces of dead rock in the place of bio balls and dose daily with amonia until all but nitrate is at 0?

Sorry for all the questions, this is what I do normally for cycling and Im setting up a good sized tank (after some good advice here) and I'm basically trying to cheap out on the rock (need over a hundred pounds) so I can afford a better skimmer and lights...

I was planning on seeding with LR too of course.


Thanks for any suggestions! And Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[Brian5000]

If you're lace rock is calcium carbonate (either man-made or real) then it will work fine. If it's lava stone, it won't work out the same.

If you need cheap base rock and don't care how long it takes to become "alive," you can find a recipe to make it using argonite sand and concrete. I've never tried this, so I don't know how long it takes to colonize sterile rock.

Normally, real live rock has enough biological material within it that it cycles itself. Also, keep in mind that live rock also contains a number of worm and small crustasean detrivores, and it has anaerobes and algeas that reduce nitrate too.

I'm really not sure if the bacteria found in freshwater tanks are compatable with saltwater.
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[Fishonthebrain]

Thanks for your time.


It's not lava rock that for sure, I'll look it up and see what it is.

I did see the diy rocks, I have also made my own concrete rocks and backgrounds and so forth, but I'm not looking to go that route with this tank.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm really not sure if the bacteria found in freshwater tanks are compatable with saltwater.

They are in the same family, but most die off due to the changes in osmolarity between the fresh and salt water. I was trying to find an article I remember on it but my BB is terribly slow today :? The OP is better off seeding his tank with a few pieces of live rock and being patient-which is the really hard part lol. I'd add a few pieces as I could afford them, making sure it is fully cured and watch the ammonia carefully.

I know from personal experience (it was en vogue in the 80s to simply add salt to an existing tank with an established UG filter no less) and voila! Instant marine tank. WRONG! All we got was a mess as the existing bacteria died off and it took literally months to stabilize.

 

[Fishonthebrain]

The OP is better off seeding his tank with a few pieces of live rock and being patient-which is the really hard part lol. I'd add a few pieces as I could afford them, making sure it is fully cured and watch the ammonia carefully.

This I can do, I'll add some fresh benebac anyway i mean its not gonna hurt anything and maybe just maybe I can cheat the system. lol

As far as adding pure ammonia to speed it up, this to me seems the same as getting it fom LR, i mean it comes from dead materials in the rock that decompose and create ammonia which fuels the growth of a bac colony. Maybe its not the same...

I know from personal experience (it was en vogue in the 80s to simply add salt to an existing tank with an established UG filter no less) and voila! Instant marine tank. WRONG!

Hahahahahahaha!

Happy thanksgiving everyone!

 

[Fishonthebrain]

While I'm here I guess I'll give some details on the tank I'm setting up. I'm sure I'll need a bunch more help!

I'm basically just going with the flow, doing research on one thing at a time, but by no means do I have a good idea of the equipment to buy...

Tank is a standard glass 125gallon, sump is a standard glass 55gal. This is all I have so far...

Im trying to trade my oak stand for a metal one so I can get the sump underneith it. Then Ill build a cover for it later.

Hood will also be homebuilt.

All the equimpent will have to fit under the stand. (meaning I dont have the means to put anything in a basement or another room)

I am doing a Reef tank, I am really not interested in fish that much, just the corals and inverts. The only thing I know for sure will be a pair of clowns. As far as corals my favorites and the ones I will probably have most of are the ones you call "zoas" and "frogspawn". For some reason the ones that look like twisty witch fingers really creep me out! LOL

My goal is to get lights good enough that I can put pretty much any coral in I feel like. And I have no idea which ones to get.

The plan so far is (when we move on december 15th) to set up the tank with base rock and LR, and let it do it's thing while we get our new house in order which I assume will take at least a month or two.

So... Im thinking get the lights and sump/fuge going. Then when Im ready to get it going, Ill get a good skimmer and whatever else before I add life to the tank. Does this sound reasonable???

Any suggestions on lights, skimmer, etc would be great!

 

[Brian5000]

If you can, take the time to drill your tank and build an internal overflow (if you haven't already). It turns out much nicer that way (my opinion anyways).

Careful with your stand. Saltwater is not kind to metal.

I would have the skimmer from day one. It doesn't hurt anything, and it will give you time to break it in/learn to use it. Other than that, your plan sounds good.

Lighting (not necessarily these fixtures; but this gives you an idea of the amount of lighting involved):
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merc..._Code=ESU-53510&Category_Code=Coralife-halide
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merc...uct_Code=AT-CT57200&Category_Code=Aquactinics

Skimmer (A few brands I hear mentioned often; rule of thumb is to get one rated for twice your tank size. If you search protein skimmers in this forum, you can find lots of comments and complaints about protein skimmers of all sizes):
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=ASM
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=AquaC
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=EURO
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[Brian5000]

As far as adding pure ammonia to speed it up, this to me seems the same as getting it fom LR, i mean it comes from dead materials in the rock that decompose and create ammonia which fuels the growth of a bac colony. Maybe its not the same...

Yes, it is the same. Another thing that has been done in the past is dropping a cocktail shrimp in the tank and letting it rot. These aren't ideal methods by any means, but they do work.

Another thing to be mentioned is the whole cured/uncured live rock thing. I don't know where you're getting your live rock, but if it's uncured (fresh from shipping and covered in rotting gunk), then even a small amount will emit more than enough ammonia. I wouldn't do any of the above in that case.
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[cindre2000]

Lighting will really depend on how much work you want to do, and how much you want to spend. Since you are building your own hood you can easily put in a retrofit, which will allow you save some money if you know a tiny bit about electricity (or can follow directions).

The best lighting would probably be metal halide or T5's. However, you probably could get by with VHO. Since you don't really want the Acro's, then you are even better off, since most of the other corals are much more forgiving about light. I would use 8 x 36" T5's or 3 x 250w metal halides for high light. 6x 36" T5's or 3 x 150w metal halides for medium high light.

I personally am using 3 x 150w Iwasaki SE metal halide over a 125 I work on and I have a selection of leathers, hammers, torches, some acros, and monti's with no problems. I just cannot keep acro's under rocks like some people like to do.

As for rock, I saved a lot of money with concrete rocks in my home 120g and you cannot really tell a big difference.

 

[Fishonthebrain]

So I'm wondering can't I just use ocean sand from one of the many beaches near me?

Also, are there any benefits to using seawater in any way? I mean I can easily use it for water changes etc...

I mean besides cost. Arent there alot of dangers with this?

Can anyone link me to a how-to or article for retro fit lighting? I just need to see a step buy step so i know what all I need to buy.


Thanks you guys are awesome!

 

[Anonymous]

Check the Workhorse ballast site. If you are going to DIY a canopy, you can save a lot of money.

I made a stand for a 180 using 2x4's, and covering it with 1x2's. Routed the edges, added some deco trim and a cabinetry door. Turned out nice, more convenient than a store bought one because I could customize it for my needs. Plus, it was sturdier than the ones I saw available, made out of particle board. It's an easy project actually, plus you can make the canopy match.

Be very careful with the lace rock. Some can leach phosphates which can wreck havok after the tank is established. Maybe put a piece in SW for a week, then test the PO4?

Here's that stand and canopy:

 

[Fishonthebrain]

Thanks for the info, great looking tank you've got there!

So, another question. Would a 20 gallon long tank suffice for a QT tank?


Im starting to get overly excited about this!!! Im selling off all my freshwater livestock and tanks before the move and I just took the first one down... one step closer to getting this thing going! Woo Hoo!

 

[Anonymous]

I use a 20 gallon rubbermaid tub for a quarantine/hospital tank. I think a 20 is a good size.

 

[cindre2000]

As for using sand and water from the beach...

I have used some sand from the beach, however, I rinsed it quite well before use and did not totally rely upon it. Depending on the beach you may get good or bad sand and there is always the issue of contaminants.

Seawater is similar. You want to get it from a clean area if you use it. The water should be clean with no smell. If you do not use it right away it needs to be storing in a dark area for a while to allow the plankton to die off.

I have heard of people going both ways, all natural and all man made. Both work. You may have less control over an all natural tank, but some people like the ease and the ability to wing it.

Personally, I would be careful. I might start a tank with natural seawater, but I would probably not switch an established tank over to NSW (especially if I had a lot of expensive livestock).

 

[Entacmaea]

Hey there, I would have to agree about the natural sea water- you are opening yourself up to a lot of pathogens and pollution. I would guess that a good RO/DI unit (a must for a reef tank) and salt mix will give you peace of mind and a stable starting point. I think most people who use NSW at least run it through a UV sterilizer before using it. As for sand from the beach- same caveats about pollution- but my main concern would be getting more silica based sand than I would want. But maybe in Florida that is less of a concern than on the west coast.

Also, about using your FW rock, sounds like it will be fine, unless you used medications (especially copper-based ones) in your FW tank- in which case you should pitch it, and not risk the rock leaching those medications back into the new SW tank.

Lighting, a lot of options as you have seen. Personally, I would go with at least 250 watt MH's, as that will give you options down the road if you want to try a few SPS frags eventually (which I'm guessing you will! :wink: )
LED lighting is also becoming popular for its efficiency, but is still wildly expensive initially. Skimmer- get the best one you can afford the first time.

I like that you mentioned zoanthids- I'm planning to have a zoo wall in my new tank. There are a lot of places to get captive raised frags, especially of zoos. www.zomania.com looks pretty good. The LPS corals you mentioned (and really most other corals) can also be fetched as aquacultured specimens very easily. www.drmaccorals.com is a good source as well, so you don't have to buy wild-caught specimens or collect off-shore.

Hope that helps. Good luck, welcome to Saltwater!

 

[Fishonthebrain]

Thank you guys so much for your replies~

I thought there might be problems ith the natural sea water. Good to know!

I think I might get some beach sand and clean it very well just for some different textures.

Entacmaea Are there risks with using silica sand in a marine tank?

Also thanks so much for the links you guys!

 

[Entacmaea]

Not necessarily risks (though you may get more diatom growth with silica sand), but calcium carbonate based sand (aragonite) is better...

 

[Fishonthebrain]

Thanks for all this help you guys!

I have a question about lighting!

Would two fixtures with these specs be adequate?

Approx Fixture Size: 24"L x 15"W x 3"H
System Support: 1x250W HQI, 2x65W CF, and 2xBluemoon LED

_OR_

One fixture with these specs\

Approx Fixture Size: 60"L x 15"W x 3"H
System Support: 3x250W HQI, 2 x96W CF, 2 x 65W CF, and 8xBluemoon LED

_OR_


neither one LOL!

 

[Fishonthebrain]

bump

8)

 

[Brian5000]

The 3 250W choice would be the best, and I think it would give you freedom to stock anything.
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