Garf startup gone all wrong

[drhyne]

This is my first post. I usually just read and try to learn.

I have recently started a new tank. It is a 65 display with a 29 refugium. My goal is to have a thriving reef with a mating pair of Mandarins fed off the tank.

A little history:
I started this venture about a year ago. I had only ever done freshwater planted tanks .... until my fiance's cat turned my heater up and poached all my fish!

The new system was supposed to be completely enclosed. Nothing that the cat can get into. It started with the cabinet and the 29 gallon tank. It has 3 compartments. The first is 4 inches wide and is completely full of ReeFresH2O bio balls. The second is a mud filter full of Cheato and finally the 6 inch wide pump section. This was run in closed loop for a couple months while I worked on building up a culture of rotifiers, copepods and mysids. The culture was started in mason jars and then transfered to the fuge. The water in the refugium was a very light greenwater. It was absulutely loaded with critters! All water tests were normal.

I added a top tank. It's an AGA reef ready. I modified the overflow for more flow and added a pump and squid to the pocket. It's tight, but it's awsome! Amazingly simple. The biggest problem I have is blowing sand. I stacked about 60 pounds of dry rock and added a couple inches of arogonite sand.

The 2 tanks were connected, the pumps were all turned on and the entire system came to life. Within 24 hours I had an even spread of critters in both tanks. I still have no algae bloom and ZERO ammonia, nitrates or nitrites. I added a peppermint shrimp, an emerald crap and a flame scallop. Everything was great for 2 weeks.

One week ago recieved my startup order from Garf! It consisted of Grunge, Muck, a soft coral pack and cleaners. First the Muck, its a mud activator. I poured it in and immediately noticed some odd things. Worms were broken and dead. Next comes the Grunge... Same deal, more dead stuff. I only added about a pound of the stuff. I was concerned. Next cleaners... they were all over the place. Very active. Finally the soft corals. I just lined up the plugs on the top of an arch for the night. the tank was so cloudy I couldn't do anything else. I left the remaining Grunge in the bag and put it in the corner of the distplay tank.

The next morning the tank looked as bad as the night before. I was still not able to see any of my rocks. Also, every parameter had spiked. Ammonia, Nitrate and Nitrite were all in the danger level. I was also very worried about the corals eating dust! I modified a 5 micro bag filter into a catch bag and started filtering all this crap out of the water. within about 4 hours it was very clear. Most of the rocks had a fine layer of dust on them. I also fired up the skimmer for the first time. The skimmer was going NUTS. I order an overnight delivery of marine Bio-Spira. That had no effect. I added a second skimmer plus my old canister with carbon, ammonia and nitrate absorbers. The levels are TOXIC! Everything is dying. I have 4 coral plugs are completely dead. My emerald crab is missing. Snails are dying. All of my critters are gone. It is tuning into a waste land. Yesterday did a 30 gallon water change. No change in water parameters.

Leroy from Garf thinks that the box got frozen. I don't think so, the water was in the low 60's when it came in. I seriously think it was dropped, kicked, thrown and bounced to my house! The corals were very damaged.

I don't know what to do other than just let it die! I am very upset!

D_.
Dan Rhyne

 

[Anonymous]

Well, the only thing to do is start doing massive water changes to bring the levels down. What exactly is the water testing at? It sounds like the tank will pretty much have to cycle all over again.

I'd remove everything that's still alive out of the main tank, put it somewhere else (new plastic garbage can or storage container) temporarily and keep doing the water changes until things level out.

 

[drhyne]

I don't have any of the measurements. I am supposed to be working.

Hmm, maybe I can convert my fuge back into a closed loop! It does have plenty of light! I can do a 95% water change before I plop everyone into it. None of my other options have any light. The only other thing I have laying around is an eclipse 6. Something tells me I need more than 9w of light! HaHa My lights for both the fuge and the main tank are a fully integrated system. There's no easy way to rip them apart.

D_.

 

[drhyne]

Stupid question:
Would it help to add more greenwater? Basically use the micro algae to clear the water? My biggest concern is that I usually have to dump lots of air into the jars to keep them alive. I would have to do the same to the main tank.

D_.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't have any of the measurements. I am supposed to be working.

Hmm, maybe I can convert my fuge back into a closed loop! It does have plenty of light! I can do a 95% water change before I plop everyone into it. None of my other options have any light. The only other thing I have laying around is an eclipse 6. Something tells me I need more than 9w of light! HaHa My lights for both the fuge and the main tank are a fully integrated system. There's no easy way to rip them apart.

D_.

Post them next time you test, it helps us figure out where you system is. Well, light isn't so much an issue, corals can make due with less that you'd think for a period of time and fish need none at all so (which is why I said even a tupperware container will work temporarily). The important thing is to save what you can now. Get your livestock out of that main tank. If you can use your sump as a separate tank that would work, but plan on huge water changes in it as well.

Stupid question:
Would it help to add more greenwater? Basically use the micro algae to clear the water? My biggest concern is that I usually have to dump lots of air into the jars to keep them alive. I would have to do the same to the main tank.

D_.

Not a stupid question at all but GW won't help, and prolly would just add to the pollution. The water is cloudy due to dying things (like bacteria). Microalgae won't survive in a toxic environment either, just die and add fuel to your fire.

As I said, get anything out you can, do massive (100%) water changes, aggressive skimming and filtering (tons of flow in the tank to keep the guck in suspension) and hope for the best.

 

[drhyne]

Just wanted to give you an update....

As usual. I don't have my numbers on my. I'm at work again. The tank seems to be returning to normal. Ammonia, nitrate & nitrite levels are well within safe ranges. The brown bloom is getting removed by the remains of my cleaning crew. Only 4 of the original soft corals are still alive. I have lost all but 6 of my snails. The turbos were the first to die. The hermits seem to be doing 99% of the work. This past weekend I did a 30 gallon water change and returned the system to normal operation. I got a huge bag of Cheato from my LFS for my fuge and life has begun again. This batch was amazing. Serpent stars, scuds, mysids, pods, micro snails... It was LOADED! Yesterday they had spread to my display tank. Life is beginning again!

Leroy has claimed that he will make it right. I am a bit apprehensive. Not sure if I should cut my losses and just deal with my LFS. I can't afford this kind of financial hit again! I've gone through another $200+ just trying to correct the problems. I also had to buy a new skimmer. The one I got last year was JUNK!!

D_.

 

[Anonymous]

Wow...whatta wipeout! I'm sorry, but at least things are stabilizing for you.

 

[Anonymous]

Just wanted to give you an update....

As usual. I don't have my numbers on my. I'm at work again. The tank seems to be returning to normal. Ammonia, nitrate & nitrite levels are well within safe ranges. The brown bloom is getting removed by the remains of my cleaning crew. Only 4 of the original soft corals are still alive. I have lost all but 6 of my snails. The turbos were the first to die. The hermits seem to be doing 99% of the work. This past weekend I did a 30 gallon water change and returned the system to normal operation. I got a huge bag of Cheato from my LFS for my fuge and life has begun again. This batch was amazing. Serpent stars, scuds, mysids, pods, micro snails... It was LOADED! Yesterday they had spread to my display tank. Life is beginning again!

Leroy has claimed that he will make it right. I am a bit apprehensive. Not sure if I should cut my losses and just deal with my LFS. I can't afford this kind of financial hit again! I've gone through another $200+ just trying to correct the problems. I also had to buy a new skimmer. The one I got last year was JUNK!!

D_.

How will Leroy make it right? A refund would be what I'd appreciate were I in your position. I know nothing of the GARF methods or methodology, but massive death doesn't sound so great to me. You could have done things the "usual" way and ended up in the same place without all the death (had to smell a bit, too, eh?). It's up to you, I'd talk with him and see. I think you're owed something, assuming you used all materials, products and animals supplied as directed.

 

[drhyne]

Leroy has claimed that he will send replacement corals and cleaners. We did not discuss any details on that. I wasn't in the mood to be reasonable or polite !!!

The entire reason I went with GARF is that I believe that our hobby should not endanger the reefs in the oceans. I enjoy scuba diving and have seen the damage that humans can do! On St Thomas there is a beach where the business owners give you a dog biscuit to take with you. Yes, you get practically attacked by fish... but if you look closely, you can see hair algae taking over the reef. Everything is dying out.

GARF uses a method of dry rock and live activator. You start with a lifeless tank and add the activator. That gives you all the bacteria and critters needed to start the reef tank.

I had started with a culture of rotifiers and pods. My tank didn't start dead. The addition of the activator should have added to that and given me more bio diversity. Something went wrong and it killed my tank. The problem I have with GARF is that when I have spoken to Leroy he had very little to say about the problem. He kept spouting numbers at me. Like "I will give you credit toward ..., your credit number is 456....." blah blah blah. What I needed was the advice I got above! That saved my remaining corals, etc. The other problem is that it came with no instructions or even a list of what was sent. I asked repeatedly for a list of the corals so that I could figure out placement and care. Leroy never sent it. I honestly don't think he knows what he sent. Something tells me he just clipped a few thing from his tanks. The entire process has been disorganized and very vague! HE ALSO NEEDS TO BUY A NEW PHONE! Geezus man! Spend the $10 !!!!!

I have a couple theories of what went wrong. The Grunge activator contains living organizms. So, it should have been bagged with air space and O2. It was send with no air space. Also, everything was in the same container and sent by USPS. I stopped using USPS because of loss and damage to my ebay items. I am sure it was mishandled! So between the lack of oxygen and the sheer abuse, almost everything died in transit!

I still believe the method is sound. I am not sure about the products. I also believe that the research GARF as done on coral propagation will be very valuable to the hobby in the future. I am just not sure this bunch of research scientists has the people skills to be a supplier.

Wow, I am cranky today! This wasn't supposed to be a rant!

D_.

 

[Anonymous]

You have good reason, and I've read nothing that others wouldn't also want to know in advance.

I'm not so sure that the solution with the micros should have been shipped with space and O2, simply because I use some natural gardening products that contain live microbes (mycorrhizae, etc.), and those that are shipped in wet form are in bottles, full, and capped tightly (and put in bags further, they've been known to leak during shipment). That said, I personally don't know a thing about specific shipping/propagation needs of any microbes.

I dive as well, and I must say that the dive areas that have impressed me most are those where there is very little to no fishing. What you describe sounds like the Caribbean side of Puerto Rico that I've dived, and the whole area is just very polluted, all the way up the chain, and fished as well. I believe that it might be a good thing to have people of origin countries manage their resources in an economic and sustainable manner, or at least just as good as "home-grown" specimens that require a great deal of shifted energy use, etc.

The rest is just a shame, sounds as though they're a bit scattered and have done a good job of losing a customer and reference. To me it's not a matter of people skills, if they know their stuff they should be able to answer questions, even in a general way.

 

[Saltlick]

I hate to top a thread this old, but it seems like new threads are not that plentiful, and this struck
me as easy enough to fix and it could help someone if they read this. I also was led to GARF on my
first swing back in the late 90s, mostly for the pretty pictures. I did not deal with them, but for no
reason in particular. However, having reefed a little bit over the years, it seems like a backwards
plan, and maybe it is not GARFs fault, in that in reality, your tank was going to be ready soon anyway
without the grunge. Once your levels hit "zero" putting anything that intense into the system was
going to have a deleterious effect, it seems to me. Now it DOES sound like the "package" or whatever
they call it, arrived dead, and that is 20 times worse than dropping it into a tank ALIVE, and as we know,
hindsight is 20/20, especially in reef-keeping.

Saddest part is it sounds like your tank was actually ready to rock, and I think corals and fish would have
been fine without the "method" or whatever they call it at GARF. I see that this happened last year,
so things are probably on track or abandoned. But this is the third thread I have read today where people were doing things "gradually" but actually creating a big extended cycling. Or shocking things after the cycle was complete.
You could have tossed one piece of good fish store live rock in there and "created" your own life. Small
spike MAYBE, but the creatures would have quickly spread out and you would have had less hassle.

I wish you the best of luck on whatever you have going on now. I know I learned one thing long ago.
Online is great for 90% of what you need to get started, but there is no substitute for getting the
final materials from a fish store or a reefer near you.

 

[drhyne]

Funny you said that....

I started with dead rock and Chaeto in my sump. No live rock. The purpose of the grunge was to get all the critters that normally reside on live rock.

Currently I have less than 2 lbs of live rock in my entire system. The tank is growing like mad. I just fraged out my corals for $180 at the LFS. I still feel I am missing some of the critters that you get from life rock. I really don't have any large worms. I did have 2 pesky rock crabs come in on the chunk I did buy. Recently I have had issues with phosphates and algae growth. This weekend I plan on adding a turf scrubber to my system to help export that stuff.

If and when I get a larger tank I plan on buying a little more live rock. I still like the idea of not taking anything from nature. I just don't think anyone has a perfected that yet.

D_.

 

[Anonymous]

First, there's nothing wrong with bumping up an old thread if you're adding to it or it is pertinent to a question you may have. In my opinion, at least, I think that's better than just creating 'yet another thread asking ________________________....'

Second, if you have pertinent information to offer then, YES, please do share it in the appropriate thread if you do find one.

 

[Saltlick]

WOW, only 2 lbs of LR a year later. That is taking it slowly. But apparently, the corals are growing.
I have the same situation you had, I have a big cache of old live rock, and it is awesome stuff, but
white as snow and dead as winter. I am thinking I am going to take a piece to the LFS and trade it
for a generous cup of sand from their live rock holding tank. Only prob I can think of is that i get
this sinking feeling I am asking for flatworms. But my goal is your goal...to revive the whole deal.

Sadly i got an email from the internet store telling me they could not ship cause i gave them the wrong
zipcode. I guess I should be thankful. But i am not, lol. Well, OK, I am. But I think even identity
thieves get the zip code right, so what did they really do for me, haha. So no lighting, no pumps,
no powerheads til Monday, and that's LEAVING the facility. Prob Wednesday before I get em and
that night to get it set up. Wah! BUT at least I can get the skimmer running tomorrow on "low".
Well, tomorrow night anyway. Sump sealant is drying. I swear it's next weekend before i get a
living thing in the damn thing.

Hey, glad to hear you arre rockin and rollin out there, dryhne. Those GARF cats spin a pretty appealing
yarn, I give em that. In fact they got me all hot to set up a frag farm about ten years ago. Dang sure
wish i had NOW. Alot of competition has grown out since then. Sure would like to be well established among
all the rest. But mostly just wanted to say I am sorry...I re-read my response and it sounded like I was
raggin on you. I was really trying to register my sadness at how easily it could have gone the other way.
Dang GARF. And I guarantee that looking at dead live rock is TOUGH to tolerate, I have 40 lbs in my tank
right now.