Chelated calcium in salt mixes

[Paolissimo]

Last night at the BAS (Brooklyn Aquarium Society) monthly meeting, Lou Ekus from Tropic Marin talked about reef chemistry. Long story short what got my attention was his explanation of chelated calcium in salt mixes. My understanding is that chelated calcium in salt mixes makes it harder for SPS to absorb calcium hence they will grow slower. Tropic Marin salt (and their additives) is non-chelated therefore corals will absorb calcium quicker and more efficiently. I tried to do some research on my own, but what i found is nothing consistent. Lou was great and I really appreciate his informative talk on the topic, but because he works for Tropic Marin he is trying to sell his products so i want to hear from other people.

 

[Boomer]

I listened to his talk at a club meeting and it was horrid, with more chemistry mistakes than I could imagine coming out of a talk. I actually walked out, I could not take anymore at about 2/3. I did not mind his Dick & Jane, to make it easy, but he was so far off.

Just 2 examples.
1. The two 55 gal drums, one pH the other Alk. Your pH drum drops, so the Alk drum pumps Alk to the pH drum to raise the pH. We're the hell is the Kalk drum. If CO2 enters the pH drum the pH will drop. You don't add a buffer from the Alk drum. Yes the pH will rise but you have not solved the CO2 issues. You keep doing this and the Alk will go through the roof and your pH will still fall. Now, if you add Kalk it will remove the CO2, raise the pH and with little shift in the Alk. He could fix that by simple clarification if he even understands it.

2. "Most of your calcium in the water is tied up as Calcium chloride". No it's not, it is Ion Pairs of Calcium bicarbonate and Calcium carbonate. There is almost zero tied up as Calcium chloride.

He is making a claim. Ask him what salts. There are virtually no salts that use chelated calcium. He is saying you can't get Calcium that high without using Chelated Calcium. That is gibberish nonsense. Have him show you who or where chelated calcium doesn't work or doesn't work as good a full ionic Calcium.

In short, his talk could be good if he fixed the mess it is in now

 

[Paolissimo]

Hey boomer
he used the same 55 gal drums example. there weren't any chemist in the room to argue his presentation. He didn't mention any salt that use Chelated calcium, but he did tell us how to test our salt. He said to put a (now my memory might be mistaken)a cup of salt in a bucket and pour water and mix it. If the water gets clear, that salt contains chelated calcium.

 

[Boomer]

That is more gibberish nonsense. He is clueless.

 

[Paolissimo]

Damn boomer I guess you are not a fan :lol2: Thank you for your input. How do you feel about the Balling method, he gave me a set of tropic marin ABC original balling method, and I want to use it.

 

[Boomer]

Ok, why. Some , Ok most Calcium chlorides are hydrated. That means they have water and some allot of water. Then there is anhydrous Calcium chloride, zero water. So, when you add the hydrated Calcium chloride you are adding water, thus diluting it. At the same time the hydrated lowers the exothermic temp rise. Meaning, the water getting warm from adding the salt. When you are using Anhydrous there is no water, no dilution with water, thus the exothermic temp rise is at max. The warmer the temp the more precip you will get and thus the more cloudy the water. To get around this, you add the salt mix slowly ,small amounts at a time and no cloudiness will take place.

 

[Boomer]

There is nothing wrong with the balling method, it is just a modified DiY 2- part. Get ahold of Bob at ESV or Claud at Fauna Marin. Tell them I sent you.

 

[Paolissimo]

Here is the reason I posted this thread. I have a 75gal mostly SPS tank, I been using reef crystal for a couple of years. I see growth on the "easy" corals (birdnest, slimers etc") the "harder" corals,( strawberry shortcakes, pink lemonade etc)grow at a very slow rate. After listening to is speech, I started to worry that my corals might absorb calcium very slowly, hence the slower growth of my "fancy" corals. For the sake of the argument my numbers (alk, calc, and mag)are where they should be, I tested my reef crystal salt (as per his method of testing) and it does clear up quickly so I assumed reef crystal contains chelated calcium which could be stunning the growth of some of my corals. I am not sure what you meant by saying to get a hold of Bob at ESV or Claud at Fauna Marin. I used to use ESV salt, but it was just a bit of a pain to mix. I was thinking of switching back just to see if I can get better growth.

 

[Dk638]

Here is the reason I posted this thread. I have a 75gal mostly SPS tank, I been using reef crystal for a couple of years. I see growth on the "easy" corals (birdnest, slimers etc") the "harder" corals,( strawberry shortcakes, pink lemonade etc)grow at a very slow rate. After listening to is speech, I started to worry that my corals might absorb calcium very slowly, hence the slower growth of my "fancy" corals. For the sake of the argument my numbers (alk, calc, and mag)are where they should be, I tested my reef crystal salt (as per his method of testing) and it does clear up quickly so I assumed reef crystal contains chelated calcium which could be stunning the growth of some of my corals. I am not sure what you meant by saying to get a hold of Bob at ESV or Claud at Fauna Marin. I used to use ESV salt, but it was just a bit of a pain to mix. I was thinking of switching back just to see if I can get better growth.

Wouldn't it be more important what type of calcium you are using to keep up with demand? Just wondering cause water changes in my tank probably only replenish a small amount of what is being taken up. I'm using coralife salt and having good results. Used tm and don't see a difference, probably like coralife better. And it mixes cloudy but tank clears up within an hour after change.

 

[Paolissimo]

Hey Dk638
I agree, but I do water changes every 2 weeks, so I use a good amount of salt. I use ESV two parts for my dosing.

 

[Dk638]

How much do you change? I change about 10% a week but that's not a lot of your calcium considering your dosing or running a cal reactor probably round the clock. I think tm is trying to sell something also, they'd be better off telling us their trace elements were better balanced. It's a good salt, I liked it but don't see a difference from coralife which is half price. If anything coralife has been better but my tank parameters have been better so tough to compare.

 

[Dk638]

the other thing that I think is important is that your salt mix closely matches your tank cal and alk

 

[Paolissimo]

I have about 90gal of water, I do water changes every 2 weeks, I change 30gallons with reef crystal. i am just frustrated on why some of the corals grow very slow..I have a coral from ORA called Joe the coral, it's growing soooo slow. I emailed ORA and they say that's a fast growing coral. I just trying to figure out, why some sps grow faster and some don't.

 

[Dk638]

If it makes you feel better I have the same coral, real slow grower. I think it's just about stability and nutrient stability and some corals tolerate less stability and some dont

 

[Boomer]

Paol

How do you feel about the Balling method, he gave me a set of tropic marin ABC original balling method, and I want to use it

I do not know what salt you use or if you are using the Balling Method or not. I took it you were curious. So, I tried to point you in the right direction of two who I trust.

The clarity test means nothing. There are lots of salts that clear quickly. When you use hydrated salts they clear quickly. If the Chloride level is a little higher the salt will dissolve faster. Then there is the mixing temp. He is just feeding you. That video is just another sales gimmick.

RC has been used for 2 decades by many, to include coral propagators. Never heard of such a thing that he claims. It is just more gibberish. Chelated calcium is used by a rare few like in SeaChems basic salt. The reason is to keep the Calcium in solution longer and to reduce the energy expenditure for corals and making it easier to get their Calcium, not harder. With that said, Chelated is really not needed. Big reason more Calcium DOES NOT mean faster growth rates. Corals will not grow faster in 450 ppm than they will at 375. It is Alk, pH, temp and nutrients not Calcium. With higher Alk being # 1 to accelerate growth rates. Most in this hobby that have spent time with SPS will tell you, " want your corls to grow faster, just raise the Alk". But getting to high is also an issue for both the aragonite Crystal lattice and the coenosarc. You get what some incorrectly call Alk Burn.

One the other side of the ball, I think TM is a very good salt. But as most know I get sick of gibberish marketing hype. And there is lots of it in this hobby. A salt does not make or break a reef tank, it is the guy in the mirror.

 

[Boomer]

DK! Good posts

 

[Paolissimo]

Boomer
thank you soo much for your answer. Yes I am curious about the balling method, I wasn't sure what you meant when you mention Bob and Claud... it makes much more sense now lol.... He gave me a sample of their balling method package, I am going to give it a try. I use Reef Crystal as my main salt Thank you for all your explanation it makes much more sense now.

 

[Boomer]

That is why I am here. So, any time :l I had a post twice that long with more detail but it got time out deleted. But we fixed that.