Standard Aquarium ???

[Mouse]

I have been looking at the lists being compiled over the last few days and I have to say that i'm a little confused.

What are these lists for, are they to be passed to Importers, Whole Salers and CITES as our recommendations for future bans in collection. Or are they merely a list of suggested no no's for the budding reefing conservationists out there.

If the first is true and these recommendations are to be passed forward to an official governing body, then why are we spoiling things for the real fanatics out there. Ok so maybe one joker in a million has the audacity to house a nurse shark in a 100 gallon tank, but what about all the 1000 gallon tanks built specially for such a purpose.

Surely were amputating a hand for the sake of a broken finger.

And if the second is true could you please indicate the "standard" aquarium to which these recommendations are relevant? I have seen first hand SPS tanks with growth rates capable of supporting up to a half dozen polyp munching beasties. I know this is a rare and truly well accomplished achievement but isn't this what we are all striving towards, the completely natural biotope?

I understand that this industry presents some shocking and frustrating success rates in some animals/corals. But really, wouldn't our combined time and effort reap more reward with some sort of positive implementation for this information. One whereby we are not forced to tie our hands because of a negligent few, hey, at the end of the day the Japanese still feel within their rights to harpoon Minkys, I wont even go into some of the monstrosities against nature I have encountered on some of the Japanese "hobby" Sites (I say "hobby" because as a hobby it should require more attention than just replacing the dead). Have you ever been to a Japanese LFS, no tanks, just bags pinned to a wall. THIS is the INDUSTRY we are against, not the hobby.

Then again Dim Sum rocks, Jap chicks are cute and i suppose a very very very small minority of Japanese tanks are cool. So i would never say i dislike them, but the whales...

 

[naesco]

Mouse thank you for joining the discussion. If you can please take the time to join the early discussions about butterflys, wrasses etc.
With the greateat respect, Bill has understated what we will be doing here but recognize that though a reefer, Bill is in the industry and quite naturally wants to protect his turf. Yet he feels the same concern.
Here is what we want to accomplish.
We want industry to declare an outright ban on certain species of fish and coral which is impossible to keep in our aquaria to stop the slaughter of these animals in LFS and unsuspecting reefers. NOTE: impossible to keep:
We are not talking at the moment of say powder blue tanks which have a dismal sucess rate for example.
The species which have been identified have the almost unanimous support of both identified conscientious reefers like myself and fairly strong industry people.
IMO most people here believe that unless we do something to stop this needles slaughter, governnment will come in as they appear to have done in the recent snail posts and do it for us.
The mechanics of how it should be done has not been settled but in my opinion there is agreement that it must be done.
I also want to point out that a number of the top reefing authors like Tullock, Fenner and the many others stated in the tread agree that these are in the impossible to keep category.
What about research you say?
Someone who wants to do research in the needs of say the Moorish Idol would be allowed to order and purcahse these fish. We all hope that that research would be successful and we could than all keep them. But, to stop their instant death sentence, the importation of them by wholesalers and the sale of them by LFS would be prohibited.
What we are merely asking for is the ban on import of fish and corals that most industry/hobbiest and reefers have agreed on the list allowing the import of same for research.
Unless one has a polical philosphy which prohibits common sense from prevaling (many do on this continent

), how can anyone disagree with this ban, eh?

 

[Bill2]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mouse:
<strong>I have been looking at the lists being compiled over the last few days and I have to say that i'm a little confused.

What are these lists for, are they to be passed to Importers, Whole Salers and CITES as our recommendations for future bans in collection. Or are they merely a list of suggested no no's for the budding reefing conservationists out there. </strong><hr></blockquote>

IMO the lists are to highlight those species that this group thinks are questionable in importation at the currend time.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mouse:
<strong>If the first is true and these recommendations are to be passed forward to an official governing body, then why are we spoiling things for the real fanatics out there. Ok so maybe one joker in a million has the audacity to house a nurse shark in a 100 gallon tank, but what about all the 1000 gallon tanks built specially for such a purpose. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I for one hate to see anyone that has taken a conscious effort to provide a habitat for one of the "restricted" species to be limited becuase some group determined they could not keep the species. On the otherhand I do not want to see a new hobbyist to buy that cool looking shark egg to find out 6 months later that sharks tend to be nasty dirty tankmates. I believe the lists are for average aquarist 60-180g not one of a more advanced nature.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mouse:
<strong> Surely were amputating a hand for the sake of a broken finger.

And if the second is true could you please indicate the "standard" aquarium to which these recommendations are relevant? I have seen first hand SPS tanks with growth rates capable of supporting up to a half dozen polyp munching beasties. I know this is a rare and truly well accomplished achievement but isn't this what we are all striving towards, the completely natural biotope?</strong><hr></blockquote>

see above

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mouse:
<strong> I understand that this industry presents some shocking and frustrating success rates in some animals/corals. But really, wouldn't our combined time and effort reap more reward with some sort of positive implementation for this information. One whereby we are not forced to tie our hands because of a negligent few, hey, at the end of the day the Japanese still feel within their rights to harpoon Minkys, I wont even go into some of the monstrosities against nature I have encountered on some of the Japanese "hobby" Sites (I say "hobby" because as a hobby it should require more attention than just replacing the dead). Have you ever been to a Japanese LFS, no tanks, just bags pinned to a wall. THIS is the INDUSTRY we are against, not the hobby.

Then again Dim Sum rocks, Jap chicks are cute and i suppose a very very very small minority of Japanese tanks are cool. So i would never say i dislike them, but the whales...

</strong><hr></blockquote>

I've seen some very nice Japanese tanks on the web but as we all know photos are only a moment in time. BTW Dim Sum is Chinese

and it does rock. Damn now you are getting me hungry. Might have to hit Mongolian BBQ tonight.

 

[Mouse]

Thank you both for taking the time to reply to my thread. I was hoping i would get an answer such as this, and i agree with there being a ban on the importation of these "impossible" species where wholesale and LFS stock are concerned.

My only fear is that research on these new species will be limited to the DR Rons & Tullocks of this world. Where as before, a well informed, conciencous and competant reefer could easyly obtain a chalenging species for a specifically designed enclosure.

Sometimes i wish all these animals weren't quite so beutifull, i think this very attribute could be the cause of many of the injustices brought upon these delecate and demanding species.

Do you know how the planned regulation of these "impossible" species will be governed in order to keep channels to those of us with a real chance at succeeding (irrespective of PHD's & Diploma's). Its just allways been one of my major attractions to fish keeping in general, the furthering of knowlege and understanding in the underwater environment, coupled with creating something beutifull and uniqe.

 

[Anonymous]

The moorish idol was put on the impossible to keep list?? I know of many people who have had one for years.


Chris

 

[naesco]

Contact these people again. I don't think the story would be as positive.
The definition used as impossible to keep is in essence obligate feeders.
Most of the authors we are familiar with in the hobby, most of those who are in the industry including ones who post here will tell you that the survival rate of this fish for any length of time is dismal. They should not be imported IMO.

 

[naesco]

Mouse
IMO if you or I have an interest in trying to find a way to have any on the list survive we should be able to order them for research purposes.
However importers, wholesalers and LFS could not import them without that request. The sanction if they did is that they would be prohibited from ordering them or importing them at all.
What we accomplish is this.
These fish don't die in fisher, wholesaler and LFS tanks.
These fish and corals will not be available at LFS or internet vendors nor can they be advertised.
All LFS wholesalers and LFS whether good (like our guys/gals) or bad are on the same footing.
Right now conscientious fishers, wholesalers and retailers are not on an equal footing because a reefer who wants something bad enough can now find people willing to sell it to them. And, that is just not fair!

 

[Mouse]

Sounds good, i hope i can help.