Session Start: Sat Feb 09 10:55:52 2008
Session Ident: #micro08
Session Close: Sat Feb 09 10:55:52 2008
Session Start: Sat Feb 09 10:55:52 2008
Session Ident: #micro08
03[10] * Now talking in #micro08
03[11] * olaf ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
01[11] <java> good morning!
[11] <olaf> good morning
01[11] <java> mchia = operator?
[11] <James> good morning, all
01[11] <java> that was a good question james
01[11] <java> in the forum
01[11] <java> did everyone here see it?
01[11] <java> one thing i wanted to also point out
01[11] <java> is that because of the role of bacteria in breaking down organic waste
01[11] <java> is that in theri absence
01[11] <java> decomposition won't take place
01[11] <java> so in very cold climates, or aquatics settings
01[11] <java> organic wastes, dead matter, take much, much longer to decompose
03[11] * walla2butterfly ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
01[11] <java> and we can see this as a function of what we learned in the first lectures (hi tami)
[11] <walla2butterfly> morning I think
01[11] <java> i.e., bacterial growth curves
01[11] <java> slower growth at low temps, higher growth at high temps
01[11] <java> so this plays into the processing of detritus in bioiballs
01[11] <java> because reef temps are relatively high, and aquaeous environment facilitates nutrient processing better
01[11] <java> so the gunk that accumulates in bioballs gets broken down FAST
01[11] <java> and that plays a role in the nitrate bottleneck
01[11] <java> see? this is why we spent a week or two on really basic microbiology
01[11] <java>
01[11] <java> because it all factors in to some degree
01[11] <java> and all these considerations compound or confound each other
01[11] <java> any other issues about the lasst lecture?
[11] <@mchia> Hi!
01[11] <java> hi
[11] <walla2butterfly> hi
[11] <walla2butterfly> bad bad week
[11] <@mchia> I was made the operator by the chat server.
01[11] <java> so you're the boss today!
[11] <walla2butterfly> cool
[11] <@mchia> There's also no subject.
01[11] <java> don't kick me off!!
01[11] <java> lol
[11] <walla2butterfly> really I was only a few min late boss
01[11] <java> no soup for you
[11] <walla2butterfly> lol
[11] <walla2butterfly> my tank crashed
01[11] <java> wha_?!
[11] <walla2butterfly> i got a new pet and it puked all over my tank, so now my critters are sittingin QT
01[11] <java> omg that's crazy
[11] <walla2butterfly> I dont know how butmy ammonia and nitrates are threw the roof
01[11] <java> did puke get in?
[11] <walla2butterfly> nt a good week
[11] <walla2butterfly> no
01[11] <java> a death?
[11] <walla2butterfly> I got anenome and it turned to mush while Iwas working a 13hr shift
01[11] <java> oh, ugh
[11] <walla2butterfly> only one so far my gentle little blue damsel
01[11] <java> so have you become a water change machine?
[11] <walla2butterfly> my LR is sitting in a bucket of death I guess
[11] <walla2butterfly> yes, while working 13hr shifts
01[11] <java> oh wow - your tank is broken down
[11] <walla2butterfly> had to teach my son how to make SW over the phone, not good
01[11] <java> oh MAN...
[11] <walla2butterfly> at first he tried to take water out of the tank to make it
01[11] <java> wow
[11] <walla2butterfly> s...
01[11] <java> i'm sorry, that made me laugh
01[11] <java>
[11] <walla2butterfly> I am sure I will laugh someday but now I am a water making machine, and why hasnt anyone made a way to heat water faster
01[11] <java> yep, that drives me nuts too
[11] <walla2butterfly> Besides the heater I was soaking hot water bottles in the water
01[11] <java> can you just drain the tank, start over, cold water and all?
[11] <walla2butterfly> and now I have ammonia in the QT grrrrrrrr
[11] <@mchia> Do you keep reserves of salt water?
[11] <walla2butterfly> my LR is in there because I dont have anywhere else to put it
[11] <walla2butterfly> only the LS was moved
[11] <olaf> can you get boxed ocean water?
[11] <walla2butterfly> 5 gall bucket of SW but I will probably have to buy more before this is over with
[11] <walla2butterfly> no I cant
[11] <walla2butterfly> right now I cant even get a damsel local
01[11] <java> wow. that's awful
01[11] <java> how many lbs of lr?
[11] <olaf> wow sound like you live in a place like I do, well I take that back they just opened a Pet Smart oh boy
[11] <walla2butterfly> I bought one of those xenias that we were talking about last week
[11] <walla2butterfly> and my clowns are hosting it now. Wish I would have know that they would be happy with that and spared all this
[11] <walla2butterfly> yea there are building a petco here but not open yet
[11] <olaf> I have xenias in one of my clients aquariums and it is slowly dying over 5 months
[11] <walla2butterfly> um I dont remember how many lbs but I just figure if it doesnt make it , it wil be base rock for my new tank. but I am hoping something makes it on it
[11] <walla2butterfly> dont tell my clowns that
[11] <walla2butterfly> LOL
[11] <olaf> Water is good
[11] <olaf> lighting is good
01[11] <java> chemical media? something fort he ammonia?
01[11] <java> normally i hate the idea, but it has it's uses
01[11] <java> like this
[11] <walla2butterfly> I have some "right now", havent decided to use it or not
[11] <olaf> I did replace some media a little bit ago like a month to Bio Chem Sorb
[11] <olaf> sorry two months ago
01[11] <java> i'd say try it, at this point it can't hurt
01[11] <java> your in a bad situation
[11] <olaf> only because the water was doing something weird
[11] <walla2butterfly> I want to do some more water changes and see what happens, then if not I will use it
01[11] <java> olaf: iodine?
[11] <olaf> I figured out with the residue on the canopy lid that something had taken place in the office
[11] <olaf> they had cleaned the carpets
[11] <walla2butterfly> ouch
01[11] <java> yeah, cleaning people can kill a tank
[11] <olaf> now every week there is a white residue on the canopy.
01[11] <java> surveillance video
01[11] <java> lol
[11] <olaf> it is in the air after they vaccume
[11] <olaf> no
[11] <olaf> I felt the residue and it made my fingers feel like I just picked up a dryer sheet
[11] <walla2butterfly> my youngest when he was a baby decided that the fish needed a popcycle , killed every thing
01[11] <java> hm, sugar dosing
[11] <olaf> same aquarium. having an issue with Long Tentacle Anemone, Macrodactyla doreensis
[11] <walla2butterfly> ( making SW in the background)
[11] <olaf> About a year ago I purchased a "corn bulb tip anemone" that was 3" across
[11] <olaf> after about 5 months it grew to be about 9"
[11] <olaf> then 2 months later it was 12"
[11] <olaf> then split into 3
01[11] <java> what were you feeding it??
[11] <olaf> the parent grew back and is between 14" - 18"
[11] <olaf> nothing
[11] <olaf> and the off-spring are 9" and 10"
01[11] <java> must've had some perfect lighting
[11] <olaf> the Parent split again this last month and is already back to 8" and the off-spiing is 6"
[11] <olaf> under light
[11] <olaf> 4 bulbs 3 work
01[11] <java> well, you hit the sweet spot with that organism, in every way
[11] <olaf> 2 10K and 1 actinic
01[11] <java> i love when that happens
[11] <olaf> they are crowding out a 6" rose bulb tip anemone
01[11] <java> tank must be huge
[11] <olaf> my client wants the three off-spring to go
[11] <olaf> 125-gallon
[11] <olaf> lol
[11] <olaf> small tank
01[11] <java> yea that sounds crowded
01[11] <java> visually, i mean
[11] <olaf> the long tentacle are very peaceful
01[11] <java> obviously the nems are happy
[11] <olaf> almost all the fish swim threw the tentacle
[11] <olaf> s
[11] <olaf> they finally hosted after a year
[11] <olaf> they had been hosting in some long leaf caulerpa
01[11] <java> james, i hope you don't mind a little genral tank chat toady, i plan on touching on a few things from the lecture, like seeding and more on cycling, but i don't think i can type for 3 hours straight like usual on the lecture material
[11] <olaf> I also had an issue with small leaf caulerpa but I got a sea egg (urchin) and it mowed it down
[11] <James> no problem!
01[11] <java> i intended this to be a review, tie-together type week, and for people to discuss "big-picture" implications of allt he details we learned
[11] <olaf> I was told that there is chemical warfare going on and that is why the xenia is not doing well
01[11] <java> oh, so the xenia is in that same tank with all the nems?
[11] <olaf> back to the way I found out the tank was going bad
[11] <olaf> all water chem was 0 or trace but there was patches of cyano on the sand
[11] <olaf> yes
01[11] <java> so the nems are okay with the "residue"??
[11] <olaf> they went in the same time as the parent
[11] <olaf> yeah it is acting like food
01[11] <java> omg
01[11] <java> ...
[11] <olaf> the first two off-spring yesterday were 14" & 16"
01[11] <java> i wonder what it is
[11] <olaf> I saw in a fish mag a place that test water samples
[11] <olaf> $100 a pop - ouch
01[11] <java> you know, slippery stuff like hair conditioner or dryer sheets
01[11] <java> are negatively charged ions
01[11] <java> usually surfactants of some sort
01[11] <java> that's why they neutralize static
[11] <olaf> I just took out a home-made nitrate reactor to re-fuel it
[11] <olaf> two weeks ago
01[11] <java> maybe the residue is acting as a mild surfactant/detergent in the water column
01[11] <java> breaking something down for the nems to eat
01[11] <java> TOTAL CONJECTURE
01[11] <java> some DOM
[11] <olaf> I do 20-gallon water changes at least once a month
[11] <olaf> and my client has a sharper image air ionizer in the room
[11] <olaf> since before the tank
[11] <olaf> it is very weird
01[11] <java> well, at least the tank isn
01[11] <java> t crashing
[11] <walla2butterfly> yeah!!!
01[11] <java> lol
[11] <walla2butterfly> hey!!!
[11] <olaf> anyone wanting anemones (cheap) I would prefer local
01[11] <java> what is "corn bubble tip"? i've never heard of that variant
[11] <walla2butterfly> sure I could do more water changes next week too
[11] <olaf> could it be too much water changing?
[11] <walla2butterfly> anemones are on my bad list this week
01[11] <java> i don't think you're doing huge wcs
01[11] <java> 12.5% per month
01[11] <java> wait 16.6
[11] <olaf> mis named
[11] <walla2butterfly> where are you at anyway
[11] <olaf> Corn bulb tip turned out to be long tentacle
[11] <olaf> SW Mich
[11] <olaf> Michigan
[11] <walla2butterfly> mm way far from me
[11] <olaf> Walla how long do you have the water sit before addition
[11] <olaf> where are you walla?
[11] <walla2butterfly> not long right now
[11] <walla2butterfly> walla walla washington
[11] <walla2butterfly> wcs?
[11] <walla2butterfly> ohhh okay
[11] <olaf> I do anyhting from 10% to 20%
01[11] <java> i don't think that's too bad
01[11] <java> too much, actually
[11] <olaf> and actually on one I have only done a water change once in the last year
01[11] <java> i mean NOT too much, actually
[11] <olaf> I have learned with this one aquarium that water changes throw off the balance
[11] <olaf> I get an algae bloom
[11] <olaf> this it not recomended<--
01[11] <java> what water do you use - before mixing
03[11] * mchia sets mode: +o java
01[11] <@java>
[11] <olaf> but the water is almost perfect every week
[11] <olaf> who? me
01[11] <@java> yeah
01[11] <@java> a water change shouldn't cause an algae bloom
[11] <olaf> Seven step OR with Ozone and UV.
[11] <olaf> the same I use for all my other aquarium
01[11] <@java> i want to get a lab grade distiller for home
[11] <olaf> I was guess it was a disruption of some like in the cycle
[11] <@mchia> Seven step OR?
01[11] <@java> or a millipore ultrapure
[11] <olaf> RO
01[11] <@java> water test ok before mixing?
[11] <olaf> the water goes threw a seven step RO filter then Ozone is put into the water and then sterilized with UV
01[11] <@java> hardcore
[11] <olaf> I have done this many times
01[11] <@java> i'm not doubting you
[11] <olaf> The water is sterile
01[11] <@java> just wondering about that algae bloom
[11] <olaf> it is very very small algae bloom
01[11] <@java> oh wait - so you meant this doesn't happen in all your tanks
01[11] <@java> if it's tank-specific then that's another story
[11] <olaf> actually there is algae growth mostly the size of dimes and nickles on the acrylic
01[11] <@java> i think most reefs have SOME minor, minor algae like that
[11] <olaf> this is the only tank that for some reason is always balanced
01[11] <@java> interesting
[11] <olaf> this is a FowLR 82-gallon
[11] <olaf> inverts: 4 snails, 3 scarlet hermits, tiger serpent star, large fan worm
[12] <olaf> fish: Pacific blue tang, Foxface LO, Coral Beauty, 2 Ocellaris clowns, lunar wrasse, 3 pj cardinals, & a royal gramma basslet
[12] <olaf> In the last four years I have only lost 2 fish
[12] <olaf> two that were added didn't last more than a month
[12] <olaf> one was a butterfly
01[12] <@java> yeah i hear butterflys are hard
01[12] <@java> i don't have much experience with fish
01[12] <@java> more corals
[12] <walla2butterfly> ( I wish I could have a butterfly )
[12] <olaf> O I forgot there are 2 rock boring urchins also in the tank
01[12] <@java> have you succssfully kept any butterflys olaf?
[12] <olaf> long nose butterfly - was thin when it came in
[12] <olaf> yes
[12] <olaf> the easy ones
[12] <olaf> copper band and long nose
01[12] <@java> ok so they're not all impossible
[12] <olaf> the ones I do have are in reef aquariums
[12] <walla2butterfly> I forgot to tell you that when I came home, looking at my tank in horror and I noticed that there were lots of air bubbles from the substrate. Was just wondering, you said that was good but what about in this situation
[12] <olaf> when ever adding a butterfly I also add neon gobies
[12] <walla2butterfly> why
01[12] <@java> you know, it may just have been the denitrifying bacteria really working hard, but still not getting up to the levels you needed to get rid of everything
[12] <olaf> they are cleaners
[12] <walla2butterfly> and why with the butterflys' in paticular
01[12] <@java> do the gobies increase longevity?
[12] <olaf> I actually think they might confort the butterflies
[12] <olaf> yes
01[12] <@java> that's really cool, do you actually see them cleaning?
[12] <walla2butterfly> (Jason) that is what I was thinking too, working hard
[12] <olaf> when ever stressed I noticed the butterflies going over the the gobies and the gobies (blue neon) jump on and go for a ride
[12] <olaf> yep
01[12] <@java> (tami) yep, but too much on their plate
[12] <walla2butterfly> pretty cool
01[12] <@java> yeah, very cool
[12] <walla2butterfly> just making sure is all
01[12] <@java> that's good
[12] <olaf> most of my tanks that have the neon gobies - they will actually jump onto my arm when cleaning and try to clean my arm
[12] <olaf> With tangs I alway add scalet skunk cleaner shrimp - same reason
01[12] <@java> so listen, before we chat away all the time...
01[12] <@java> i just wanted to mention a few things from the lecture ppt
[12] <@mchia> OK
[12] <olaf> k
01[12] <@java> one of them was regarding microbiological seeding
[12] <walla2butterfly> k
01[12] <@java> because i've seen a lot of discussion in the forums about bottled bacteria
01[12] <@java> i wanted to touch on that a bit
01[12] <@java> you always hear, almost everywhere
01[12] <@java> that the nitrifying bacteria are nitrosomonas and nitrobacter
01[12] <@java> and pure cultures of these are typically what is found in these bottled cultures
01[12] <@java> sometimes you'll see denitrifiers sold as well
01[12] <@java> usually, these aren't identified, because denitrification is more of a holy grail in reefing
01[12] <@java> more proprietary
01[12] <@java> so, a couple considerations...
01[12] <@java> for one, we've seen in the papers that we read last week that the population of denitrifiers isn't a pure culture
01[12] <@java> meaning, there isn't jsut one species of bacteria doing the work
01[12] <@java> there were at least a dozen in appreciable numbers
01[12] <@java> with a couple dominant strains
01[12] <@java> this is a little different from the idea of seeding a tank with a uniform culture of a single species
01[12] <@java> now i'm not going to make any arguments about which is "better"
01[12] <@java> because when the experiment is all said and done, they may end up doing the job as well as a mixed culture
01[12] <@java> but i think we can all see that it's an unnatural way to seed a tank
01[12] <@java> in nature, populations equilibrate for a reason
01[12] <@java> things survive for a reason
01[12] <@java> things interrelate, sometimes in subtle symbioses
01[12] <@java> because i've studied natural situations in my graduate work and studies
01[12] <@java> i tend to try and replicate natural settings in my tanks, freshwater as well
01[12] <@java> so it's jsut my personal preference and goal
01[12] <@java> but if that IS the goal, then getting microbes fresh off a reef, in the form of live rock is more accurate of a natural representation
01[12] <@java> i'd tend to think that these mixed populations of bacteria could be looked at very similarly to macroorganisms
01[12] <@java> like fish or plants, algaes
01[12] <@java> int hat they keep each other in balance, and also in better overall health, leading to better overall health of a tank
01[12] <@java> the butterfly fish is happier and healthier with gobies
01[12] <@java> the diversity makes both healthier
01[12] <@java> in the end, they live longer, no death, no tank crash, healthier tank from added diversity
01[12] <@java> i feel the same way about microbes, that preserving the diversity is likely to be beneficial
01[12] <@java> think in terms of a situation where the tank gets out of balance
01[12] <@java> some nutrient, maybe even other than nitrogen, gets depeleted OR overloaded
01[12] <@java> enough so that a single species of bacteria is affected
01[12] <@java> if the tank is predominantly seeded and cultured with one species, and that species is affected
01[12] <@java> that's bad news
01[12] <@java> the entire population can die off
01[12] <@java> and although rare or unlikely with n-cycle components
01[12] <@java> it COULD happen in a closed system given enough stress
[12] <walla2butterfly> but even seeding wouldnt you eventually get some equalibrium
01[12] <@java> yes, but i'm thinking in terms of recovering from stresses
01[12] <@java> resiliency of the population as a whole to environmental stresses
[12] <walla2butterfly> but if you had equalibrium wouldnt you not have just one specices
01[12] <@java> well, it depends
[12] <walla2butterfly> ?
01[12] <@java> it would be possible for a person to set up a tank with dry base rock, dry sand, and seed with only bottled cultures
01[12] <@java> in this case, that tank would have uniform species soing each step of the nitrogen cycle
01[12] <@java> doing
[12] <walla2butterfly> but wouldnt you eventually get more types?
01[12] <@java> i've seen some people do this
01[12] <@java> you'd have to introduce them somehow, they'd have to hitch-hike in on something
[12] <walla2butterfly> in the experiment they didnt add anything and got bacteria
01[12] <@java> AND
01[12] <@java> ah yes
[12] <@mchia> Wouldn't others species would come on livestock?
[12] <walla2butterfly> so wouldnt you even if used bottled bacteria get the same
01[12] <@java> not necessarily
01[12] <@java> because when one is dealing with biological niches
01[12] <@java> if a niche is already occupied by an organism, and a new organism is introduced
01[12] <@java> the advantage is to the established organism
[12] <walla2butterfly> gottcha
01[12] <@java> so 100% dry, not seeded, you'll still get n-cycle bacteria
[12] <walla2butterfly> you wouldnt get an equalibrium , you might say
01[12] <@java> but if you seed with a uniform bottled culture
[12] <walla2butterfly> there would be some dominace
[12] <olaf> I was talking to a guy from Ecological Laboratories
01[12] <@java> it will grow and occupy the niches, establilsh dominance
01[12] <@java> over anything new
01[12] <@java> that gets introduced later
01[12] <@java> the new stuff will need to live off scraps or die
[12] <walla2butterfly> what is sludge
01[12] <@java> and if it is somehow more fit for the environment it will supplant the established organism
[12] <olaf> about Microbe-Lift and he was saying that their bacteria uses both organic material and sun light
[12] <walla2butterfly> (lots of scraps in my tank right now)
01[12] <@java> photosynthetic bacteria
[12] <olaf> when there is a depleation of organic matter they will start using the lights for food
01[12] <@java> interesting
01[12] <@java> i'd love to know species names for all these new formulations i'm hearing about
[12] <walla2butterfly> Nothing is listed on this bottle I am looking at now
[12] <James> are other types of bacteria (non n-cycle) important in aquaria?
01[12] <@java> but they usually don't tell, because you can't copyright a bacteria unless it's genteically modified
[12] <walla2butterfly> yea
01[12] <@java> good question james
[12] <walla2butterfly> but what is sludge
[12] <olaf> I think it was Special blend which really stinks (smells bad) but he said they make a few that don't have a smell
[12] <olaf> yes copyright
01[12] <@java> but very little is known about other nutrient cycling in aquaria
01[12] <@java> very little is known about the n-cycle, to be honest
01[12] <@java> you're probably hearing for the first time who the denitrifiers are in this course
01[12] <@java> because i had to figure it out lol
01[12] <@java> from primary lit research, very little on microbiological research in aquaria
01[12] <@java> TAMI - sludge as a brand name or jsut in general?
[12] <walla2butterfly> ( still dont know what sludge is, anyone?)
[12] <walla2butterfly> no
[12] <walla2butterfly> I am looking at this bottle and it says it eats sludge
[12] <walla2butterfly> and displaces bad bacteria
[12] <@mchia> Probably it means detritus.
[12] <walla2butterfly> ProBiotic
01[12] <@java> oh - that's when organic material becomes broken down physically, but not completely chemically
[12] <olaf> Sludge would be a build up of organic matter
01[12] <@java> so it's like liquidy detritus mixed into the substrate
[12] <walla2butterfly> okay that is what I thought but wasnt for sure
01[12] <@java> so jsut to summarize my point
[12] <walla2butterfly> Thanks guys
[12] <olaf> this is usually found in dead spots
01[12] <@java> i'm not saying bottled bacteria aren't good
[12] <olaf> no or little water flow
01[12] <@java> jsut that it's not a natural representation
01[12] <@java> omg i always type "just" as "jsut"
01[12] <@java> AND
[12] <walla2butterfly> that is why I am trying to get this tank back to norm, with out using it if I have to
01[12] <@java> that when seeding with a unniform culture
01[12] <@java> dominance is established, which lessens the likelihood os diversity
[12] <olaf> purchase some live sand not bagged live sand but live sand from a good source
[12] <walla2butterfly> seems to me that the bacterias got to be in there somewhere
01[12] <@java> and i think it's possible that diversity = resiliency
01[12] <@java> they are, but think about that marine bioreactor population
01[12] <@java> some of those are strictly marine species
01[12] <@java> and the n-cycle bacteria in that paper in the unseeded tanks
01[12] <@java> are probably from airborne spores of soil bacteria
01[12] <@java> you're not going to get marine n-cycle bacteria in a tank without adding them somehow
01[12] <@java> now - is it necessary?
01[12] <@java> probably not
[12] <olaf> I have actually purchased five lbs of Dynamic Sand Activator from coral dynamics which had some really good bio-diversity
01[12] <@java> but i'm getting a little academic about preferences for certain bacteria
01[12] <@java> yeah, i think it's entirely possible to purchase good cultures
01[12] <@java> i jsut don't like the idea of pure or uniform cultures of a single species
01[12] <@java> OR non-marine species
[12] <walla2butterfly> makes sense
01[12] <@java> shall we take 10? get to the other stuff when i get back?
[12] <walla2butterfly> k
[12] <olaf> k
[12] <@mchia> OK
[12] <James> ok
[12] <olaf> Walla there is a company that only covers the west they are Blue Life USA they have a boxed ocean water called Blue water
[12] <olaf> furthest it ships east is into Texas
01[12] <@java> shipping for boxed water is probably crazy!
[12] <olaf> Kennewick, WA is the closest for any store (?)
01[12] <@java> olaf - do you usually have a blank check for setting up tanks (obvioulsy within reason)
01[12] <@java> ?
[12] <walla2butterfly> or Pendelton
[12] <walla2butterfly> Oregon
[12] <olaf> not really
01[12] <@java> that must be great setting up a tank without stressing over costs too much
01[12] <@java> fun
[12] <olaf> I only checked WA
[12] <olaf> I usually tell my clients it ranges between $50 - $75 per gallon
[12] <walla2butterfly> I have a routine going on the water changes, I will catch up sooner or later
01[12] <@java> $75 per gallon makes for a sweet setup!
[12] <olaf> I also tell them that there are sometimes costs that are unforseen
[12] <walla2butterfly> just wish I had more buckets.
01[12] <@java> that's awesome
[12] <walla2butterfly> I have been trying to find out how to tell if storage containers are food grade
01[12] <@java> because setup is half the fun of a tank
[12] <olaf> My last custom setup was a 150-g for a financial investment business and they were all about cost
[12] <walla2butterfly> I bet
[13] <olaf> I ended up taking a hit in order to get them setup
01[13] <@java> aw that bites
[13] <olaf> I didn't make anything on the setup
01[13] <@java> wow, they managed their money pretty good there, makes sense if their in finance
[13] <walla2butterfly> do they pick as a general rule or do they just tell you what their interested in and then you take it from there?
[13] <walla2butterfly> (as in what is in the tank)
[13] <olaf> I got them 150-g acrylic aquarium with black stand and canopy live sand lighting live rock water 33-g sump pumps powerheads filter media protein skimmer UV timers etc under $5000. OUCH!
[13] <olaf> I usually don't cover Live rock and I never cover fish in that cost
01[13] <@java> you must have 10,000 pails
[13] <olaf> they still complain that they spent that much but they love it and they get comments all the time on how beautiful it looks
[13] <olaf> pails?
[13] <walla2butterfly> buckets
[13] <olaf> buckets
[13] <olaf> lol
01[13] <@java> you do have a lot of buckets, don't you?
[13] <olaf> buckets for sale get your buckets here
[13] <olaf> half dozen
[13] <walla2butterfly> what do you store you water in?
01[13] <@java> no way - how do you lug around ls, lr, startup water (RO), etc?
[13] <olaf> I have these 5-g containers with a screw on cap
[13] <olaf> Live sand in a bag
[13] <walla2butterfly> on an initial tank set up that is a lot of 5gal containers
[13] <olaf> live rock in my sunroom in a 100-g tub until transport
01[13] <@java> yeah, what about RO water? do you bring your apparatus instead?
[13] <olaf> transport I use sterofoam boxes
[13] <walla2butterfly> okay he has half dozen buckets but lots of other stuff I gather
[13] <olaf> most of my clients purchase RO from the same place I do and keep it in stock for me at their place of business
01[13] <@java> ah - ok, so lets talk about curing rock then
[13] <walla2butterfly> oh I thought you made your own water for some reason
[13] <olaf> I usually go in a few days ahead of time and mix up the salt water
[13] <walla2butterfly> k
01[13] <@java> so by now, does the traditional method of curing uncured rock seem as crazy to you guys as it does to me?
01[13] <@java> it's like the point is to kill the rock
[13] <olaf> start-ups I use a RO unit unless the client wants to do Ocean water then I order a ballet of boxed ocean water
[13] <olaf> YES
[13] <walla2butterfly> seems that way
01[13] <@java> yeah, i don't get it
01[13] <@java> the only part i SORT OF agree with is the lowered lighting
01[13] <@java> although typically it's done in an unlit container
[13] <@mchia> OK
[13] <olaf> I still don't lower the light
01[13] <@java> last time i used a 6 hr photoperiod
[13] <olaf> I always thought the cure = kill method
[13] <walla2butterfly> oxymoron
01[13] <@java> yeah, but olaf, you also get super duperr fresh live rock
01[13] <@java> which i'm jealous about lol
01[13] <@java> but also means you get very little die-off
01[13] <@java> because as i mentioned in the forum question from james, die-off also means elevated phosphates
01[13] <@java> elevated phosphates = algae food
01[13] <@java> so i think that's the point with the "kill" method
01[13] <@java> no light = no algae
01[13] <@java> but that'll stress your coraline
01[13] <@java> which personally, i think is the most awesome thing about fresh live rock
[13] <olaf> One client (new) decided to order from the largest online fish place a Live Rock package, OMG
01[13] <@java> omg good or bad?
[13] <olaf> The rock had stuff on it like leather
[13] <olaf> rotting leather
[13] <olaf> no life
01[13] <@java> oh wow, the bucket of death finally comes in handy lol
[13] <olaf> actually I had used a combination of the livesand for my soft start method
01[13] <@java> yeah, sometimes people are like "is there really such a thing as "good quality" live rock?"
[13] <olaf> which helped and this week I added live rock from my 100-g sunroom tub
01[13] <@java> um, yeah!
[13] <olaf> they sent a coral head = very dense
01[13] <@java> yeah, so not only is that crap rock lacking macrodiversity
01[13] <@java> but without a doubt some microbial die-off occurred as well
01[13] <@java> which is what the bucket of death will do
01[13] <@java> what i was talking about earlier regarding mixed populations
01[13] <@java> comes into play here
01[13] <@java> in that some species in that population are more sensitive than otehrs
01[13] <@java> to all sorts of environmental variable
01[13] <@java> some will die off easily in too much ammonia
[13] <olaf> I am thinking of setup a distribution business so I can get things in like this directly
01[13] <@java> denitrifiers don't eat ammonia directly, and so it can be toxic
01[13] <@java> others may be sensitive to a change in nutrient concentration
[13] <walla2butterfly>(, looking over at my tank)
01[13] <@java> if growth slows, another more competitive species will speed the subpopulation's demise
01[13] <@java> so these environmental dynamics all come into play
01[13] <@java> and the end goal, for me at least, is preserving natural diversity
01[13] <@java> with the idea that nature knows best
01[13] <@java> the diversity is there for a reasson
[13] <olaf> I totally agree with that
01[13] <@java> not only did it evolve that way
01[13] <@java> but these populations "chose" to live "togetehr" for a reason
01[13] <@java> these ideas keep coming up because the themes, once understood in terms of the living organisms, can be applied to various aspects of reefkeeping
01[13] <@java> curing, cycling, seeding
01[13] <@java> maintaining
01[13] <@java> dealing with outbreaks
01[13] <@java> mini-cycles
01[13] <@java> from tank deaths
01[13] <@java> so, speaking of tank-deaths
01[13] <@java> tami might want to get some fresh rock once things settle down to try and re-seed with soem natural diversity
[13] <walla2butterfly> k
01[13] <@java> probably won't need a large amount
[13] <walla2butterfly> maybe like some nano rumble?
01[13] <@java> but cewrtainly things have gotten unbalanced
01[13] <@java> yeah
01[13] <@java> i got some "rock pool sludge", a small amount, from premium aquatics for my startup
[13] <olaf> uncured nano rubble
01[13] <@java> mixed in a 1/4 cup per 20 lbs sand
[13] <olaf> that is sorta like what I mentioned eariler
01[13] <@java> yeah
01[13] <@java> obviously anything similar is fine
01[13] <@java> because when things get out of balance
01[13] <@java> they can aggravate the imbalance
01[13] <@java> if something grows more
01[13] <@java> it can supplant soemthing else, kill another subpopulation
01[13] <@java> so not only die-off is a consideration
01[13] <@java> but overgrowth as well
01[13] <@java> then, when the excess nutrient is used up
01[13] <@java> that new dominant subpopulation runs out of food and dies-off
01[13] <@java> things can go on like that for a while
01[13] <@java> good luck tami, i think your best bet is to do as many water changes as possible to keep the nutrient levels as close to normal as possible
01[13] <@java> things will settle down faster
01[13] <@java> spikes will make all sorts of things grow and die
01[13] <@java> aggravate imbalance
[13] <olaf> like a virus or a disease that could wipe out the micro infrastructure
01[13] <@java> exactly
01[13] <@java> sometimes environmental changes target a specific species
01[13] <@java> others couldn't care less, but one is sensitive and goes
01[13] <@java> dies
[13] <walla2butterfly> I have the ammonia down a little bit right now, but dont know if it is catching up or if just diluted
01[13] <@java> what are the levels at?
[13] <walla2butterfly> still to high but not as high
[13] <walla2butterfly> probably 1
[13] <olaf> This is way I like using the different boxed ocean water for water changes
01[13] <@java> oh yeah, makes sense
[13] <olaf> I do have to drive to get them at least 40 mile one way
[13] <olaf> to do a water change for my nano
[13] <walla2butterfly> next wcs is for the QT
01[13] <@java> there was a paper in that collection of reviews from Nature which i didn't post
01[13] <@java> because it wouldv'e been too confusing, and not really reef relevant
01[13] <@java> but interesting to this conversation nonetheless
01[13] <@java> they recently discovered that seawater is PACKED with viruses
01[13] <@java> like, a LOT
01[13] <@java> what they're doing, is keeping bacterial popultions under control
01[13] <@java> there's a class of virus called a bacteriophage
01[13] <@java> they only infect bacteria
[13] <walla2butterfly> everything so intertwind
01[13] <@java> harmless to humans, so don't sweat it lol
01[13] <@java> but they actively infect pelagic bacteria
[13] <walla2butterfly> tell it crosses over LOL
01[13] <@java> lol
01[13] <@java> it has a long way to go, evolutionarily
01[13] <@java> *whew
[13] <walla2butterfly> puts us in our place
01[13] <@java> but when i learned microbiology
01[13] <@java> the prof, or book, i can't remember where
01[13] <@java> told us that if e. coli were permitted to grow unhindered with an infinite nutrient source
[13] <olaf> checked on shipping for Nutri-SeaWater 4.4-g from Drs F&S no extra shipping charge it is all based on purchase amount, as long as you go with regular shipping
01[13] <@java> one bacterium would multiply to cover the planet in a coat 3 feet thick in a week or so
01[13] <@java> so considering how nutrient-rich the ocean is, potentially
[13] <walla2butterfly> scary, Day after tomorrow stuff
[13] <olaf> bio-suits every one
01[13] <@java> the viruses are keeping things balanced
01[13] <@java> in the ocean, with regards to bacterial populations
[13] <olaf> ment if not it
[13] <olaf> oops I did mean it
[13] <olaf> sorry
[13] <walla2butterfly> lol
[13] <olaf> I did also notice that Drs F&S has a microscope with a camera that attaches to your PC
[13] <olaf> that would be so cool to actually see some of these bacteria
[13] <walla2butterfly> wish list there LOL
01[13] <@java> here's a nice one : "The estimated 10e30 viruses in the ocean, if stretched end to end, would span farther than the nearest 60 galaxies."
[13] <@mchia> The resolution is quite low the last time I checked.
01[13] <@java> http://www.nature.com/nrmicro/journal/v ... o1750.html
01[13] <@java> the article should be free, if anyone is interested in reading further
[13] <walla2butterfly> k
[13] <@mchia> OK
[13] <olaf> thx
[13] <James> cool
[13] <olaf> well it would be good for placing fertal coral onto tiles
01[13] <@java> depending on the magnification, bacteria are hard to see without staining on a standard light microscope
01[13] <@java> they jsut look like barely perceptible dots
[13] <olaf> I wonder if the camera would be able to be mounted on other microscopes
01[13] <@java> but i bet the suspended algaes adn protists, diatoms, etc. might be really really interesting
01[13] <@java> some of those creatures are really cool under a microscope
[13] <walla2butterfly> Jason: got any cool pics of them?
[13] <@mchia> You can mount your own camera on a microscope, but that would need a good camera. Some cameras can't focus on the microscope.
[13] <olaf> I found a product that is interesting. I found it when I was trying to re-introduce energy producing dinoflagellate into an anemone
01[13] <@java> well that's a neat project
[13] <olaf> http://phycopure.com/
[13] <walla2butterfly> ( using that "A" word)
[13] <olaf> I had anemone that exspelled all of its "color" symbotic algae
01[13] <@java> did it work?
[13] <olaf> sorry walla
[13] <walla2butterfly> ( sigh)
[13] <olaf> did purchase it because they wanted too much business and personal info & wanted a larger order
[13] <olaf> I asked them who they sell to so I could purchase it from them and they did not reply
01[13] <@java> interesting, i noticed it said "a" dinoflagellate
01[13] <@java> zooxanthellae
01[13] <@java> i wonder what species
01[13] <@java> zooxanthellae can vary among corals and nems
01[13] <@java> (oops)
01[13] <@java> i mean jsut corals
01[13] <@java> lol
[13] <olaf> I found that site by search zooxanthelle
[13] <olaf> I found a couple of articals
01[13] <@java> yeah, the primary literature on zooxanthellae is light
[13] <olaf> This is the orginal site I found http://www.algagen.com/
01[13] <@java> it's there, light on research
[13] <walla2butterfly> seems in this hobby it is all light except for some basics
01[13] <@java> it's actually amazing how little relevant scientific research exists
01[13] <@java> on corals, particularly
01[13] <@java> very poorly udnerstood organisms
[13] <olaf> yeah
[13] <walla2butterfly> hopefully we will get there before we wipe them out
[13] <olaf> which I have found that anemones can actually be even harder than corals
01[13] <@java> i believe that
[13] <olaf> 38 year count down according to NOAA
[13] <olaf> and national geographic
01[13] <@java> to what, extinction?
[13] <olaf> yep
[13] <olaf> this is really cool tho
01[13] <@java> i've read that corals have survived massive wipeouts by keeping reserviors in the arctic
[13] <olaf> I found this out on a show
01[13] <@java> variants that can survive elsewhere, stick it out and repopulate later
[13] <olaf> ther is a guy in the caribbean
[13] <walla2butterfly> I think I heard something like that
[13] <olaf> that is growning corals
[13] <olaf> he has grown 500 years worth in 10 months
[13] <walla2butterfly> but can you really get the samething in 10m as in 500yrs
[13] <olaf> he purchased an air field and setup a bunch of 500-g tanks
[13] <olaf> ture
[13] <olaf> true
[13] <@mchia> An air field - wow!
[13] <olaf> but 1 in a 1000 survive in the wild when he collects all and survival rate is great
01[13] <@java> hey, remediation has helped a lot of endangered species
[13] <olaf> Dominica
01[13] <@java> all you need is to re-seed sometimes
01[13] <@java> but if the environment id crtap then it's a diff story
01[13] <@java> is crap, lol
[13] <olaf> he sells to the caribbean governments to repopluate
[13] <olaf> the reefs
01[13] <@java> carribean reefs are in SUCH bad shape
[13] <walla2butterfly> ( lol, mind out of the gutter)
[13] <olaf> because of the desert dust from africa
[13] <olaf> and have you felt the water
[13] <olaf> it is 84 degrees
01[13] <@java> yeah, it's hot
[13] <olaf> it is also salty
[13] <walla2butterfly> more evap, more salty
[13] <olaf> didn't hurt my eyes tho
01[13] <@java> well, i've got to run
[13] <olaf> k
[13] <walla2butterfly> ever floated in the great salt lake, that is salty LOL and hurts
01[13] <@java> next week we'll be covering things like vodka dosing, methanol, sulfur reactors
[13] <@mchia> OK
[13] <olaf> ouch paper cuts
[13] <walla2butterfly> bye , next week?
[13] <olaf> laters
03[13] * walla2butterfly ([email protected]) has left #micro08
[13] <@mchia> Bye everyone!
01[13] <@java> advanced methods you guys should have a new insight into
02[13] * olaf ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: )
01[13] <@java> bye!
Session Close: Sat Feb 09 13:58:53 2008
Session Ident: #micro08
Session Close: Sat Feb 09 10:55:52 2008
Session Start: Sat Feb 09 10:55:52 2008
Session Ident: #micro08
03[10] * Now talking in #micro08
03[11] * olaf ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
01[11] <java> good morning!
[11] <olaf> good morning
01[11] <java> mchia = operator?
[11] <James> good morning, all
01[11] <java> that was a good question james
01[11] <java> in the forum
01[11] <java> did everyone here see it?
01[11] <java> one thing i wanted to also point out
01[11] <java> is that because of the role of bacteria in breaking down organic waste
01[11] <java> is that in theri absence
01[11] <java> decomposition won't take place
01[11] <java> so in very cold climates, or aquatics settings
01[11] <java> organic wastes, dead matter, take much, much longer to decompose
03[11] * walla2butterfly ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
01[11] <java> and we can see this as a function of what we learned in the first lectures (hi tami)
[11] <walla2butterfly> morning I think
01[11] <java> i.e., bacterial growth curves
01[11] <java> slower growth at low temps, higher growth at high temps
01[11] <java> so this plays into the processing of detritus in bioiballs
01[11] <java> because reef temps are relatively high, and aquaeous environment facilitates nutrient processing better
01[11] <java> so the gunk that accumulates in bioballs gets broken down FAST
01[11] <java> and that plays a role in the nitrate bottleneck
01[11] <java> see? this is why we spent a week or two on really basic microbiology
01[11] <java>
01[11] <java> because it all factors in to some degree
01[11] <java> and all these considerations compound or confound each other
01[11] <java> any other issues about the lasst lecture?
[11] <@mchia> Hi!
01[11] <java> hi
[11] <walla2butterfly> hi
[11] <walla2butterfly> bad bad week
[11] <@mchia> I was made the operator by the chat server.
01[11] <java> so you're the boss today!
[11] <walla2butterfly> cool
[11] <@mchia> There's also no subject.
01[11] <java> don't kick me off!!
01[11] <java> lol
[11] <walla2butterfly> really I was only a few min late boss
01[11] <java> no soup for you
[11] <walla2butterfly> lol
[11] <walla2butterfly> my tank crashed
01[11] <java> wha_?!
[11] <walla2butterfly> i got a new pet and it puked all over my tank, so now my critters are sittingin QT
01[11] <java> omg that's crazy
[11] <walla2butterfly> I dont know how butmy ammonia and nitrates are threw the roof
01[11] <java> did puke get in?
[11] <walla2butterfly> nt a good week
[11] <walla2butterfly> no
01[11] <java> a death?
[11] <walla2butterfly> I got anenome and it turned to mush while Iwas working a 13hr shift
01[11] <java> oh, ugh
[11] <walla2butterfly> only one so far my gentle little blue damsel
01[11] <java> so have you become a water change machine?
[11] <walla2butterfly> my LR is sitting in a bucket of death I guess
[11] <walla2butterfly> yes, while working 13hr shifts
01[11] <java> oh wow - your tank is broken down
[11] <walla2butterfly> had to teach my son how to make SW over the phone, not good
01[11] <java> oh MAN...
[11] <walla2butterfly> at first he tried to take water out of the tank to make it
01[11] <java> wow
[11] <walla2butterfly> s...
01[11] <java> i'm sorry, that made me laugh
01[11] <java>
[11] <walla2butterfly> I am sure I will laugh someday but now I am a water making machine, and why hasnt anyone made a way to heat water faster
01[11] <java> yep, that drives me nuts too
[11] <walla2butterfly> Besides the heater I was soaking hot water bottles in the water
01[11] <java> can you just drain the tank, start over, cold water and all?
[11] <walla2butterfly> and now I have ammonia in the QT grrrrrrrr
[11] <@mchia> Do you keep reserves of salt water?
[11] <walla2butterfly> my LR is in there because I dont have anywhere else to put it
[11] <walla2butterfly> only the LS was moved
[11] <olaf> can you get boxed ocean water?
[11] <walla2butterfly> 5 gall bucket of SW but I will probably have to buy more before this is over with
[11] <walla2butterfly> no I cant
[11] <walla2butterfly> right now I cant even get a damsel local
01[11] <java> wow. that's awful
01[11] <java> how many lbs of lr?
[11] <olaf> wow sound like you live in a place like I do, well I take that back they just opened a Pet Smart oh boy
[11] <walla2butterfly> I bought one of those xenias that we were talking about last week
[11] <walla2butterfly> and my clowns are hosting it now. Wish I would have know that they would be happy with that and spared all this
[11] <walla2butterfly> yea there are building a petco here but not open yet
[11] <olaf> I have xenias in one of my clients aquariums and it is slowly dying over 5 months
[11] <walla2butterfly> um I dont remember how many lbs but I just figure if it doesnt make it , it wil be base rock for my new tank. but I am hoping something makes it on it
[11] <walla2butterfly> dont tell my clowns that
[11] <walla2butterfly> LOL
[11] <olaf> Water is good
[11] <olaf> lighting is good
01[11] <java> chemical media? something fort he ammonia?
01[11] <java> normally i hate the idea, but it has it's uses
01[11] <java> like this
[11] <walla2butterfly> I have some "right now", havent decided to use it or not
[11] <olaf> I did replace some media a little bit ago like a month to Bio Chem Sorb
[11] <olaf> sorry two months ago
01[11] <java> i'd say try it, at this point it can't hurt
01[11] <java> your in a bad situation
[11] <olaf> only because the water was doing something weird
[11] <walla2butterfly> I want to do some more water changes and see what happens, then if not I will use it
01[11] <java> olaf: iodine?
[11] <olaf> I figured out with the residue on the canopy lid that something had taken place in the office
[11] <olaf> they had cleaned the carpets
[11] <walla2butterfly> ouch
01[11] <java> yeah, cleaning people can kill a tank
[11] <olaf> now every week there is a white residue on the canopy.
01[11] <java> surveillance video
01[11] <java> lol
[11] <olaf> it is in the air after they vaccume
[11] <olaf> no
[11] <olaf> I felt the residue and it made my fingers feel like I just picked up a dryer sheet
[11] <walla2butterfly> my youngest when he was a baby decided that the fish needed a popcycle , killed every thing
01[11] <java> hm, sugar dosing
[11] <olaf> same aquarium. having an issue with Long Tentacle Anemone, Macrodactyla doreensis
[11] <walla2butterfly> ( making SW in the background)
[11] <olaf> About a year ago I purchased a "corn bulb tip anemone" that was 3" across
[11] <olaf> after about 5 months it grew to be about 9"
[11] <olaf> then 2 months later it was 12"
[11] <olaf> then split into 3
01[11] <java> what were you feeding it??
[11] <olaf> the parent grew back and is between 14" - 18"
[11] <olaf> nothing
[11] <olaf> and the off-spring are 9" and 10"
01[11] <java> must've had some perfect lighting
[11] <olaf> the Parent split again this last month and is already back to 8" and the off-spiing is 6"
[11] <olaf> under light
[11] <olaf> 4 bulbs 3 work
01[11] <java> well, you hit the sweet spot with that organism, in every way
[11] <olaf> 2 10K and 1 actinic
01[11] <java> i love when that happens
[11] <olaf> they are crowding out a 6" rose bulb tip anemone
01[11] <java> tank must be huge
[11] <olaf> my client wants the three off-spring to go
[11] <olaf> 125-gallon
[11] <olaf> lol
[11] <olaf> small tank
01[11] <java> yea that sounds crowded
01[11] <java> visually, i mean
[11] <olaf> the long tentacle are very peaceful
01[11] <java> obviously the nems are happy
[11] <olaf> almost all the fish swim threw the tentacle
[11] <olaf> s
[11] <olaf> they finally hosted after a year
[11] <olaf> they had been hosting in some long leaf caulerpa
01[11] <java> james, i hope you don't mind a little genral tank chat toady, i plan on touching on a few things from the lecture, like seeding and more on cycling, but i don't think i can type for 3 hours straight like usual on the lecture material
[11] <olaf> I also had an issue with small leaf caulerpa but I got a sea egg (urchin) and it mowed it down
[11] <James> no problem!
01[11] <java> i intended this to be a review, tie-together type week, and for people to discuss "big-picture" implications of allt he details we learned
[11] <olaf> I was told that there is chemical warfare going on and that is why the xenia is not doing well
01[11] <java> oh, so the xenia is in that same tank with all the nems?
[11] <olaf> back to the way I found out the tank was going bad
[11] <olaf> all water chem was 0 or trace but there was patches of cyano on the sand
[11] <olaf> yes
01[11] <java> so the nems are okay with the "residue"??
[11] <olaf> they went in the same time as the parent
[11] <olaf> yeah it is acting like food
01[11] <java> omg
01[11] <java> ...
[11] <olaf> the first two off-spring yesterday were 14" & 16"
01[11] <java> i wonder what it is
[11] <olaf> I saw in a fish mag a place that test water samples
[11] <olaf> $100 a pop - ouch
01[11] <java> you know, slippery stuff like hair conditioner or dryer sheets
01[11] <java> are negatively charged ions
01[11] <java> usually surfactants of some sort
01[11] <java> that's why they neutralize static
[11] <olaf> I just took out a home-made nitrate reactor to re-fuel it
[11] <olaf> two weeks ago
01[11] <java> maybe the residue is acting as a mild surfactant/detergent in the water column
01[11] <java> breaking something down for the nems to eat
01[11] <java> TOTAL CONJECTURE
01[11] <java> some DOM
[11] <olaf> I do 20-gallon water changes at least once a month
[11] <olaf> and my client has a sharper image air ionizer in the room
[11] <olaf> since before the tank
[11] <olaf> it is very weird
01[11] <java> well, at least the tank isn
01[11] <java> t crashing
[11] <walla2butterfly> yeah!!!
01[11] <java> lol
[11] <walla2butterfly> hey!!!
[11] <olaf> anyone wanting anemones (cheap) I would prefer local
01[11] <java> what is "corn bubble tip"? i've never heard of that variant
[11] <walla2butterfly> sure I could do more water changes next week too
[11] <olaf> could it be too much water changing?
[11] <walla2butterfly> anemones are on my bad list this week
01[11] <java> i don't think you're doing huge wcs
01[11] <java> 12.5% per month
01[11] <java> wait 16.6
[11] <olaf> mis named
[11] <walla2butterfly> where are you at anyway
[11] <olaf> Corn bulb tip turned out to be long tentacle
[11] <olaf> SW Mich
[11] <olaf> Michigan
[11] <walla2butterfly> mm way far from me
[11] <olaf> Walla how long do you have the water sit before addition
[11] <olaf> where are you walla?
[11] <walla2butterfly> not long right now
[11] <walla2butterfly> walla walla washington
[11] <walla2butterfly> wcs?
[11] <walla2butterfly> ohhh okay
[11] <olaf> I do anyhting from 10% to 20%
01[11] <java> i don't think that's too bad
01[11] <java> too much, actually
[11] <olaf> and actually on one I have only done a water change once in the last year
01[11] <java> i mean NOT too much, actually
[11] <olaf> I have learned with this one aquarium that water changes throw off the balance
[11] <olaf> I get an algae bloom
[11] <olaf> this it not recomended<--
01[11] <java> what water do you use - before mixing
03[11] * mchia sets mode: +o java
01[11] <@java>
[11] <olaf> but the water is almost perfect every week
[11] <olaf> who? me
01[11] <@java> yeah
01[11] <@java> a water change shouldn't cause an algae bloom
[11] <olaf> Seven step OR with Ozone and UV.
[11] <olaf> the same I use for all my other aquarium
01[11] <@java> i want to get a lab grade distiller for home
[11] <olaf> I was guess it was a disruption of some like in the cycle
[11] <@mchia> Seven step OR?
01[11] <@java> or a millipore ultrapure
[11] <olaf> RO
01[11] <@java> water test ok before mixing?
[11] <olaf> the water goes threw a seven step RO filter then Ozone is put into the water and then sterilized with UV
01[11] <@java> hardcore
[11] <olaf> I have done this many times
01[11] <@java> i'm not doubting you
[11] <olaf> The water is sterile
01[11] <@java> just wondering about that algae bloom
[11] <olaf> it is very very small algae bloom
01[11] <@java> oh wait - so you meant this doesn't happen in all your tanks
01[11] <@java> if it's tank-specific then that's another story
[11] <olaf> actually there is algae growth mostly the size of dimes and nickles on the acrylic
01[11] <@java> i think most reefs have SOME minor, minor algae like that
[11] <olaf> this is the only tank that for some reason is always balanced
01[11] <@java> interesting
[11] <olaf> this is a FowLR 82-gallon
[11] <olaf> inverts: 4 snails, 3 scarlet hermits, tiger serpent star, large fan worm
[12] <olaf> fish: Pacific blue tang, Foxface LO, Coral Beauty, 2 Ocellaris clowns, lunar wrasse, 3 pj cardinals, & a royal gramma basslet
[12] <olaf> In the last four years I have only lost 2 fish
[12] <olaf> two that were added didn't last more than a month
[12] <olaf> one was a butterfly
01[12] <@java> yeah i hear butterflys are hard
01[12] <@java> i don't have much experience with fish
01[12] <@java> more corals
[12] <walla2butterfly> ( I wish I could have a butterfly )
[12] <olaf> O I forgot there are 2 rock boring urchins also in the tank
01[12] <@java> have you succssfully kept any butterflys olaf?
[12] <olaf> long nose butterfly - was thin when it came in
[12] <olaf> yes
[12] <olaf> the easy ones
[12] <olaf> copper band and long nose
01[12] <@java> ok so they're not all impossible
[12] <olaf> the ones I do have are in reef aquariums
[12] <walla2butterfly> I forgot to tell you that when I came home, looking at my tank in horror and I noticed that there were lots of air bubbles from the substrate. Was just wondering, you said that was good but what about in this situation
[12] <olaf> when ever adding a butterfly I also add neon gobies
[12] <walla2butterfly> why
01[12] <@java> you know, it may just have been the denitrifying bacteria really working hard, but still not getting up to the levels you needed to get rid of everything
[12] <olaf> they are cleaners
[12] <walla2butterfly> and why with the butterflys' in paticular
01[12] <@java> do the gobies increase longevity?
[12] <olaf> I actually think they might confort the butterflies
[12] <olaf> yes
01[12] <@java> that's really cool, do you actually see them cleaning?
[12] <walla2butterfly> (Jason) that is what I was thinking too, working hard
[12] <olaf> when ever stressed I noticed the butterflies going over the the gobies and the gobies (blue neon) jump on and go for a ride
[12] <olaf> yep
01[12] <@java> (tami) yep, but too much on their plate
[12] <walla2butterfly> pretty cool
01[12] <@java> yeah, very cool
[12] <walla2butterfly> just making sure is all
01[12] <@java> that's good
[12] <olaf> most of my tanks that have the neon gobies - they will actually jump onto my arm when cleaning and try to clean my arm
[12] <olaf> With tangs I alway add scalet skunk cleaner shrimp - same reason
01[12] <@java> so listen, before we chat away all the time...
01[12] <@java> i just wanted to mention a few things from the lecture ppt
[12] <@mchia> OK
[12] <olaf> k
01[12] <@java> one of them was regarding microbiological seeding
[12] <walla2butterfly> k
01[12] <@java> because i've seen a lot of discussion in the forums about bottled bacteria
01[12] <@java> i wanted to touch on that a bit
01[12] <@java> you always hear, almost everywhere
01[12] <@java> that the nitrifying bacteria are nitrosomonas and nitrobacter
01[12] <@java> and pure cultures of these are typically what is found in these bottled cultures
01[12] <@java> sometimes you'll see denitrifiers sold as well
01[12] <@java> usually, these aren't identified, because denitrification is more of a holy grail in reefing
01[12] <@java> more proprietary
01[12] <@java> so, a couple considerations...
01[12] <@java> for one, we've seen in the papers that we read last week that the population of denitrifiers isn't a pure culture
01[12] <@java> meaning, there isn't jsut one species of bacteria doing the work
01[12] <@java> there were at least a dozen in appreciable numbers
01[12] <@java> with a couple dominant strains
01[12] <@java> this is a little different from the idea of seeding a tank with a uniform culture of a single species
01[12] <@java> now i'm not going to make any arguments about which is "better"
01[12] <@java> because when the experiment is all said and done, they may end up doing the job as well as a mixed culture
01[12] <@java> but i think we can all see that it's an unnatural way to seed a tank
01[12] <@java> in nature, populations equilibrate for a reason
01[12] <@java> things survive for a reason
01[12] <@java> things interrelate, sometimes in subtle symbioses
01[12] <@java> because i've studied natural situations in my graduate work and studies
01[12] <@java> i tend to try and replicate natural settings in my tanks, freshwater as well
01[12] <@java> so it's jsut my personal preference and goal
01[12] <@java> but if that IS the goal, then getting microbes fresh off a reef, in the form of live rock is more accurate of a natural representation
01[12] <@java> i'd tend to think that these mixed populations of bacteria could be looked at very similarly to macroorganisms
01[12] <@java> like fish or plants, algaes
01[12] <@java> int hat they keep each other in balance, and also in better overall health, leading to better overall health of a tank
01[12] <@java> the butterfly fish is happier and healthier with gobies
01[12] <@java> the diversity makes both healthier
01[12] <@java> in the end, they live longer, no death, no tank crash, healthier tank from added diversity
01[12] <@java> i feel the same way about microbes, that preserving the diversity is likely to be beneficial
01[12] <@java> think in terms of a situation where the tank gets out of balance
01[12] <@java> some nutrient, maybe even other than nitrogen, gets depeleted OR overloaded
01[12] <@java> enough so that a single species of bacteria is affected
01[12] <@java> if the tank is predominantly seeded and cultured with one species, and that species is affected
01[12] <@java> that's bad news
01[12] <@java> the entire population can die off
01[12] <@java> and although rare or unlikely with n-cycle components
01[12] <@java> it COULD happen in a closed system given enough stress
[12] <walla2butterfly> but even seeding wouldnt you eventually get some equalibrium
01[12] <@java> yes, but i'm thinking in terms of recovering from stresses
01[12] <@java> resiliency of the population as a whole to environmental stresses
[12] <walla2butterfly> but if you had equalibrium wouldnt you not have just one specices
01[12] <@java> well, it depends
[12] <walla2butterfly> ?
01[12] <@java> it would be possible for a person to set up a tank with dry base rock, dry sand, and seed with only bottled cultures
01[12] <@java> in this case, that tank would have uniform species soing each step of the nitrogen cycle
01[12] <@java> doing
[12] <walla2butterfly> but wouldnt you eventually get more types?
01[12] <@java> i've seen some people do this
01[12] <@java> you'd have to introduce them somehow, they'd have to hitch-hike in on something
[12] <walla2butterfly> in the experiment they didnt add anything and got bacteria
01[12] <@java> AND
01[12] <@java> ah yes
[12] <@mchia> Wouldn't others species would come on livestock?
[12] <walla2butterfly> so wouldnt you even if used bottled bacteria get the same
01[12] <@java> not necessarily
01[12] <@java> because when one is dealing with biological niches
01[12] <@java> if a niche is already occupied by an organism, and a new organism is introduced
01[12] <@java> the advantage is to the established organism
[12] <walla2butterfly> gottcha
01[12] <@java> so 100% dry, not seeded, you'll still get n-cycle bacteria
[12] <walla2butterfly> you wouldnt get an equalibrium , you might say
01[12] <@java> but if you seed with a uniform bottled culture
[12] <walla2butterfly> there would be some dominace
[12] <olaf> I was talking to a guy from Ecological Laboratories
01[12] <@java> it will grow and occupy the niches, establilsh dominance
01[12] <@java> over anything new
01[12] <@java> that gets introduced later
01[12] <@java> the new stuff will need to live off scraps or die
[12] <walla2butterfly> what is sludge
01[12] <@java> and if it is somehow more fit for the environment it will supplant the established organism
[12] <olaf> about Microbe-Lift and he was saying that their bacteria uses both organic material and sun light
[12] <walla2butterfly> (lots of scraps in my tank right now)
01[12] <@java> photosynthetic bacteria
[12] <olaf> when there is a depleation of organic matter they will start using the lights for food
01[12] <@java> interesting
01[12] <@java> i'd love to know species names for all these new formulations i'm hearing about
[12] <walla2butterfly> Nothing is listed on this bottle I am looking at now
[12] <James> are other types of bacteria (non n-cycle) important in aquaria?
01[12] <@java> but they usually don't tell, because you can't copyright a bacteria unless it's genteically modified
[12] <walla2butterfly> yea
01[12] <@java> good question james
[12] <walla2butterfly> but what is sludge
[12] <olaf> I think it was Special blend which really stinks (smells bad) but he said they make a few that don't have a smell
[12] <olaf> yes copyright
01[12] <@java> but very little is known about other nutrient cycling in aquaria
01[12] <@java> very little is known about the n-cycle, to be honest
01[12] <@java> you're probably hearing for the first time who the denitrifiers are in this course
01[12] <@java> because i had to figure it out lol
01[12] <@java> from primary lit research, very little on microbiological research in aquaria
01[12] <@java> TAMI - sludge as a brand name or jsut in general?
[12] <walla2butterfly> ( still dont know what sludge is, anyone?)
[12] <walla2butterfly> no
[12] <walla2butterfly> I am looking at this bottle and it says it eats sludge
[12] <walla2butterfly> and displaces bad bacteria
[12] <@mchia> Probably it means detritus.
[12] <walla2butterfly> ProBiotic
01[12] <@java> oh - that's when organic material becomes broken down physically, but not completely chemically
[12] <olaf> Sludge would be a build up of organic matter
01[12] <@java> so it's like liquidy detritus mixed into the substrate
[12] <walla2butterfly> okay that is what I thought but wasnt for sure
01[12] <@java> so jsut to summarize my point
[12] <walla2butterfly> Thanks guys
[12] <olaf> this is usually found in dead spots
01[12] <@java> i'm not saying bottled bacteria aren't good
[12] <olaf> no or little water flow
01[12] <@java> jsut that it's not a natural representation
01[12] <@java> omg i always type "just" as "jsut"
01[12] <@java> AND
[12] <walla2butterfly> that is why I am trying to get this tank back to norm, with out using it if I have to
01[12] <@java> that when seeding with a unniform culture
01[12] <@java> dominance is established, which lessens the likelihood os diversity
[12] <olaf> purchase some live sand not bagged live sand but live sand from a good source
[12] <walla2butterfly> seems to me that the bacterias got to be in there somewhere
01[12] <@java> and i think it's possible that diversity = resiliency
01[12] <@java> they are, but think about that marine bioreactor population
01[12] <@java> some of those are strictly marine species
01[12] <@java> and the n-cycle bacteria in that paper in the unseeded tanks
01[12] <@java> are probably from airborne spores of soil bacteria
01[12] <@java> you're not going to get marine n-cycle bacteria in a tank without adding them somehow
01[12] <@java> now - is it necessary?
01[12] <@java> probably not
[12] <olaf> I have actually purchased five lbs of Dynamic Sand Activator from coral dynamics which had some really good bio-diversity
01[12] <@java> but i'm getting a little academic about preferences for certain bacteria
01[12] <@java> yeah, i think it's entirely possible to purchase good cultures
01[12] <@java> i jsut don't like the idea of pure or uniform cultures of a single species
01[12] <@java> OR non-marine species
[12] <walla2butterfly> makes sense
01[12] <@java> shall we take 10? get to the other stuff when i get back?
[12] <walla2butterfly> k
[12] <olaf> k
[12] <@mchia> OK
[12] <James> ok
[12] <olaf> Walla there is a company that only covers the west they are Blue Life USA they have a boxed ocean water called Blue water
[12] <olaf> furthest it ships east is into Texas
01[12] <@java> shipping for boxed water is probably crazy!
[12] <olaf> Kennewick, WA is the closest for any store (?)
01[12] <@java> olaf - do you usually have a blank check for setting up tanks (obvioulsy within reason)
01[12] <@java> ?
[12] <walla2butterfly> or Pendelton
[12] <walla2butterfly> Oregon
[12] <olaf> not really
01[12] <@java> that must be great setting up a tank without stressing over costs too much
01[12] <@java> fun
[12] <olaf> I only checked WA
[12] <olaf> I usually tell my clients it ranges between $50 - $75 per gallon
[12] <walla2butterfly> I have a routine going on the water changes, I will catch up sooner or later
01[12] <@java> $75 per gallon makes for a sweet setup!
[12] <olaf> I also tell them that there are sometimes costs that are unforseen
[12] <walla2butterfly> just wish I had more buckets.
01[12] <@java> that's awesome
[12] <walla2butterfly> I have been trying to find out how to tell if storage containers are food grade
01[12] <@java> because setup is half the fun of a tank
[12] <olaf> My last custom setup was a 150-g for a financial investment business and they were all about cost
[12] <walla2butterfly> I bet
[13] <olaf> I ended up taking a hit in order to get them setup
01[13] <@java> aw that bites
[13] <olaf> I didn't make anything on the setup
01[13] <@java> wow, they managed their money pretty good there, makes sense if their in finance
[13] <walla2butterfly> do they pick as a general rule or do they just tell you what their interested in and then you take it from there?
[13] <walla2butterfly> (as in what is in the tank)
[13] <olaf> I got them 150-g acrylic aquarium with black stand and canopy live sand lighting live rock water 33-g sump pumps powerheads filter media protein skimmer UV timers etc under $5000. OUCH!
[13] <olaf> I usually don't cover Live rock and I never cover fish in that cost
01[13] <@java> you must have 10,000 pails
[13] <olaf> they still complain that they spent that much but they love it and they get comments all the time on how beautiful it looks
[13] <olaf> pails?
[13] <walla2butterfly> buckets
[13] <olaf> buckets
[13] <olaf> lol
01[13] <@java> you do have a lot of buckets, don't you?
[13] <olaf> buckets for sale get your buckets here
[13] <olaf> half dozen
[13] <walla2butterfly> what do you store you water in?
01[13] <@java> no way - how do you lug around ls, lr, startup water (RO), etc?
[13] <olaf> I have these 5-g containers with a screw on cap
[13] <olaf> Live sand in a bag
[13] <walla2butterfly> on an initial tank set up that is a lot of 5gal containers
[13] <olaf> live rock in my sunroom in a 100-g tub until transport
01[13] <@java> yeah, what about RO water? do you bring your apparatus instead?
[13] <olaf> transport I use sterofoam boxes
[13] <walla2butterfly> okay he has half dozen buckets but lots of other stuff I gather
[13] <olaf> most of my clients purchase RO from the same place I do and keep it in stock for me at their place of business
01[13] <@java> ah - ok, so lets talk about curing rock then
[13] <walla2butterfly> oh I thought you made your own water for some reason
[13] <olaf> I usually go in a few days ahead of time and mix up the salt water
[13] <walla2butterfly> k
01[13] <@java> so by now, does the traditional method of curing uncured rock seem as crazy to you guys as it does to me?
01[13] <@java> it's like the point is to kill the rock
[13] <olaf> start-ups I use a RO unit unless the client wants to do Ocean water then I order a ballet of boxed ocean water
[13] <olaf> YES
[13] <walla2butterfly> seems that way
01[13] <@java> yeah, i don't get it
01[13] <@java> the only part i SORT OF agree with is the lowered lighting
01[13] <@java> although typically it's done in an unlit container
[13] <@mchia> OK
[13] <olaf> I still don't lower the light
01[13] <@java> last time i used a 6 hr photoperiod
[13] <olaf> I always thought the cure = kill method
[13] <walla2butterfly> oxymoron
01[13] <@java> yeah, but olaf, you also get super duperr fresh live rock
01[13] <@java> which i'm jealous about lol
01[13] <@java> but also means you get very little die-off
01[13] <@java> because as i mentioned in the forum question from james, die-off also means elevated phosphates
01[13] <@java> elevated phosphates = algae food
01[13] <@java> so i think that's the point with the "kill" method
01[13] <@java> no light = no algae
01[13] <@java> but that'll stress your coraline
01[13] <@java> which personally, i think is the most awesome thing about fresh live rock
[13] <olaf> One client (new) decided to order from the largest online fish place a Live Rock package, OMG
01[13] <@java> omg good or bad?
[13] <olaf> The rock had stuff on it like leather
[13] <olaf> rotting leather
[13] <olaf> no life
01[13] <@java> oh wow, the bucket of death finally comes in handy lol
[13] <olaf> actually I had used a combination of the livesand for my soft start method
01[13] <@java> yeah, sometimes people are like "is there really such a thing as "good quality" live rock?"
[13] <olaf> which helped and this week I added live rock from my 100-g sunroom tub
01[13] <@java> um, yeah!
[13] <olaf> they sent a coral head = very dense
01[13] <@java> yeah, so not only is that crap rock lacking macrodiversity
01[13] <@java> but without a doubt some microbial die-off occurred as well
01[13] <@java> which is what the bucket of death will do
01[13] <@java> what i was talking about earlier regarding mixed populations
01[13] <@java> comes into play here
01[13] <@java> in that some species in that population are more sensitive than otehrs
01[13] <@java> to all sorts of environmental variable
01[13] <@java> some will die off easily in too much ammonia
[13] <olaf> I am thinking of setup a distribution business so I can get things in like this directly
01[13] <@java> denitrifiers don't eat ammonia directly, and so it can be toxic
01[13] <@java> others may be sensitive to a change in nutrient concentration
[13] <walla2butterfly>
(, looking over at my tank)01[13] <@java> if growth slows, another more competitive species will speed the subpopulation's demise
01[13] <@java> so these environmental dynamics all come into play
01[13] <@java> and the end goal, for me at least, is preserving natural diversity
01[13] <@java> with the idea that nature knows best
01[13] <@java> the diversity is there for a reasson
[13] <olaf> I totally agree with that
01[13] <@java> not only did it evolve that way
01[13] <@java> but these populations "chose" to live "togetehr" for a reason
01[13] <@java> these ideas keep coming up because the themes, once understood in terms of the living organisms, can be applied to various aspects of reefkeeping
01[13] <@java> curing, cycling, seeding
01[13] <@java> maintaining
01[13] <@java> dealing with outbreaks
01[13] <@java> mini-cycles
01[13] <@java> from tank deaths
01[13] <@java> so, speaking of tank-deaths
01[13] <@java> tami might want to get some fresh rock once things settle down to try and re-seed with soem natural diversity
[13] <walla2butterfly> k
01[13] <@java> probably won't need a large amount
[13] <walla2butterfly> maybe like some nano rumble?
01[13] <@java> but cewrtainly things have gotten unbalanced
01[13] <@java> yeah
01[13] <@java> i got some "rock pool sludge", a small amount, from premium aquatics for my startup
[13] <olaf> uncured nano rubble
01[13] <@java> mixed in a 1/4 cup per 20 lbs sand
[13] <olaf> that is sorta like what I mentioned eariler
01[13] <@java> yeah
01[13] <@java> obviously anything similar is fine
01[13] <@java> because when things get out of balance
01[13] <@java> they can aggravate the imbalance
01[13] <@java> if something grows more
01[13] <@java> it can supplant soemthing else, kill another subpopulation
01[13] <@java> so not only die-off is a consideration
01[13] <@java> but overgrowth as well
01[13] <@java> then, when the excess nutrient is used up
01[13] <@java> that new dominant subpopulation runs out of food and dies-off
01[13] <@java> things can go on like that for a while
01[13] <@java> good luck tami, i think your best bet is to do as many water changes as possible to keep the nutrient levels as close to normal as possible
01[13] <@java> things will settle down faster
01[13] <@java> spikes will make all sorts of things grow and die
01[13] <@java> aggravate imbalance
[13] <olaf> like a virus or a disease that could wipe out the micro infrastructure
01[13] <@java> exactly
01[13] <@java> sometimes environmental changes target a specific species
01[13] <@java> others couldn't care less, but one is sensitive and goes
01[13] <@java> dies
[13] <walla2butterfly> I have the ammonia down a little bit right now, but dont know if it is catching up or if just diluted
01[13] <@java> what are the levels at?
[13] <walla2butterfly> still to high but not as high
[13] <walla2butterfly> probably 1
[13] <olaf> This is way I like using the different boxed ocean water for water changes
01[13] <@java> oh yeah, makes sense
[13] <olaf> I do have to drive to get them at least 40 mile one way
[13] <olaf> to do a water change for my nano
[13] <walla2butterfly> next wcs is for the QT
01[13] <@java> there was a paper in that collection of reviews from Nature which i didn't post
01[13] <@java> because it wouldv'e been too confusing, and not really reef relevant
01[13] <@java> but interesting to this conversation nonetheless
01[13] <@java> they recently discovered that seawater is PACKED with viruses
01[13] <@java> like, a LOT
01[13] <@java> what they're doing, is keeping bacterial popultions under control
01[13] <@java> there's a class of virus called a bacteriophage
01[13] <@java> they only infect bacteria
[13] <walla2butterfly> everything so intertwind
01[13] <@java> harmless to humans, so don't sweat it lol
01[13] <@java> but they actively infect pelagic bacteria
[13] <walla2butterfly> tell it crosses over LOL
01[13] <@java> lol
01[13] <@java> it has a long way to go, evolutionarily
01[13] <@java> *whew
[13] <walla2butterfly> puts us in our place
01[13] <@java> but when i learned microbiology
01[13] <@java> the prof, or book, i can't remember where
01[13] <@java> told us that if e. coli were permitted to grow unhindered with an infinite nutrient source
[13] <olaf> checked on shipping for Nutri-SeaWater 4.4-g from Drs F&S no extra shipping charge it is all based on purchase amount, as long as you go with regular shipping
01[13] <@java> one bacterium would multiply to cover the planet in a coat 3 feet thick in a week or so
01[13] <@java> so considering how nutrient-rich the ocean is, potentially
[13] <walla2butterfly> scary, Day after tomorrow stuff
[13] <olaf> bio-suits every one
01[13] <@java> the viruses are keeping things balanced
01[13] <@java> in the ocean, with regards to bacterial populations
[13] <olaf> ment if not it
[13] <olaf> oops I did mean it
[13] <olaf> sorry
[13] <walla2butterfly> lol
[13] <olaf> I did also notice that Drs F&S has a microscope with a camera that attaches to your PC
[13] <olaf> that would be so cool to actually see some of these bacteria
[13] <walla2butterfly> wish list there LOL
01[13] <@java> here's a nice one : "The estimated 10e30 viruses in the ocean, if stretched end to end, would span farther than the nearest 60 galaxies."
[13] <@mchia> The resolution is quite low the last time I checked.
01[13] <@java> http://www.nature.com/nrmicro/journal/v ... o1750.html
01[13] <@java> the article should be free, if anyone is interested in reading further
[13] <walla2butterfly> k
[13] <@mchia> OK
[13] <olaf> thx
[13] <James> cool
[13] <olaf> well it would be good for placing fertal coral onto tiles
01[13] <@java> depending on the magnification, bacteria are hard to see without staining on a standard light microscope
01[13] <@java> they jsut look like barely perceptible dots
[13] <olaf> I wonder if the camera would be able to be mounted on other microscopes
01[13] <@java> but i bet the suspended algaes adn protists, diatoms, etc. might be really really interesting
01[13] <@java> some of those creatures are really cool under a microscope
[13] <walla2butterfly> Jason: got any cool pics of them?
[13] <@mchia> You can mount your own camera on a microscope, but that would need a good camera. Some cameras can't focus on the microscope.
[13] <olaf> I found a product that is interesting. I found it when I was trying to re-introduce energy producing dinoflagellate into an anemone
01[13] <@java> well that's a neat project
[13] <olaf> http://phycopure.com/
[13] <walla2butterfly> ( using that "A" word)
[13] <olaf> I had anemone that exspelled all of its "color" symbotic algae
01[13] <@java> did it work?
[13] <olaf> sorry walla
[13] <walla2butterfly> ( sigh)
[13] <olaf> did purchase it because they wanted too much business and personal info & wanted a larger order
[13] <olaf> I asked them who they sell to so I could purchase it from them and they did not reply
01[13] <@java> interesting, i noticed it said "a" dinoflagellate
01[13] <@java> zooxanthellae
01[13] <@java> i wonder what species
01[13] <@java> zooxanthellae can vary among corals and nems
01[13] <@java> (oops)
01[13] <@java> i mean jsut corals
01[13] <@java> lol
[13] <olaf> I found that site by search zooxanthelle
[13] <olaf> I found a couple of articals
01[13] <@java> yeah, the primary literature on zooxanthellae is light
[13] <olaf> This is the orginal site I found http://www.algagen.com/
01[13] <@java> it's there, light on research
[13] <walla2butterfly> seems in this hobby it is all light except for some basics
01[13] <@java> it's actually amazing how little relevant scientific research exists
01[13] <@java> on corals, particularly
01[13] <@java> very poorly udnerstood organisms
[13] <olaf> yeah
[13] <walla2butterfly> hopefully we will get there before we wipe them out
[13] <olaf> which I have found that anemones can actually be even harder than corals
01[13] <@java> i believe that
[13] <olaf> 38 year count down according to NOAA
[13] <olaf> and national geographic
01[13] <@java> to what, extinction?
[13] <olaf> yep
[13] <olaf> this is really cool tho
01[13] <@java> i've read that corals have survived massive wipeouts by keeping reserviors in the arctic
[13] <olaf> I found this out on a show
01[13] <@java> variants that can survive elsewhere, stick it out and repopulate later
[13] <olaf> ther is a guy in the caribbean
[13] <walla2butterfly> I think I heard something like that
[13] <olaf> that is growning corals
[13] <olaf> he has grown 500 years worth in 10 months
[13] <walla2butterfly> but can you really get the samething in 10m as in 500yrs
[13] <olaf> he purchased an air field and setup a bunch of 500-g tanks
[13] <olaf> ture
[13] <olaf> true
[13] <@mchia> An air field - wow!
[13] <olaf> but 1 in a 1000 survive in the wild when he collects all and survival rate is great
01[13] <@java> hey, remediation has helped a lot of endangered species
[13] <olaf> Dominica
01[13] <@java> all you need is to re-seed sometimes
01[13] <@java> but if the environment id crtap then it's a diff story
01[13] <@java> is crap, lol
[13] <olaf> he sells to the caribbean governments to repopluate
[13] <olaf> the reefs
01[13] <@java> carribean reefs are in SUCH bad shape
[13] <walla2butterfly> ( lol, mind out of the gutter)
[13] <olaf> because of the desert dust from africa
[13] <olaf> and have you felt the water
[13] <olaf> it is 84 degrees
01[13] <@java> yeah, it's hot
[13] <olaf> it is also salty
[13] <walla2butterfly> more evap, more salty
[13] <olaf> didn't hurt my eyes tho
01[13] <@java> well, i've got to run
[13] <olaf> k
[13] <walla2butterfly> ever floated in the great salt lake, that is salty LOL and hurts
01[13] <@java> next week we'll be covering things like vodka dosing, methanol, sulfur reactors
[13] <@mchia> OK
[13] <olaf> ouch paper cuts
[13] <walla2butterfly> bye , next week?
[13] <olaf> laters
03[13] * walla2butterfly ([email protected]) has left #micro08
[13] <@mchia> Bye everyone!
01[13] <@java> advanced methods you guys should have a new insight into
02[13] * olaf ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: )
01[13] <@java> bye!
Session Close: Sat Feb 09 13:58:53 2008
