Session Start: Sat Jan 19 10:37:31 2008
Session Ident: #micro08
Session Close: Sat Jan 19 10:37:31 2008
Session Start: Sat Jan 19 10:37:31 2008
Session Ident: #micro08
03[10] * Now talking in #micro08
03[10] * Topic is 'Welcome to MACO - Reef Microbiology 2008'
03[10] * Set by wade on Wed Dec 31 19:00:01
03[10] * olaf ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
01[11] <java> good morning!
01[11] <java> WHERE IS EVERYONE??
01[11] <java> i hope people are checking their emails for course updates like the rescheduling of this chat
01[11] <java> i know at least one person is not here who was aware of the change
01[11] <java> Tami posted in the forum.
01[11] <java> maybe a hard night lol
01[11] <java> hey olaf!
01[11] <java> i liked your setup post
[11] <olaf> hey
01[11] <java> your tanks must be gorgeous with such fresh live rock, soft-cycled
[11] <olaf> thanks
[11] <olaf> the only issue is the bad critters
01[11] <java> what have you had probems with?
[11] <olaf> clients pick certain fish but then some start disappearing
[11] <olaf> mantis and red eyed crabs
01[11] <java> i see
[11] <mchia> I didn't receive anything in my email
[11] <mchia> I check the forums regularly, so that's how I found out about it.
01[11] <java> !!
01[11] <java> i sent out an email through the workgroups email client on the MACO site!
[11] <olaf> Red eyed crabs watch the firefish dart into their burrow then come in after them blocking the hole then they are gone
[11] <olaf> yeah I don't get an email either
[11] <olaf> I just check the forum
01[11] <java> very interesting, because i got the email since i'm in the workgroups list
01[11] <java> i wish more people were on the forum
01[11] <java> it's the easiest place for exchanging all sorts of info
01[11] <java> and people can post at their convenience
[11] <olaf> yeah that would be nice but with the way things are a lot of poeple just don't have the time
[11] <olaf> this is a great time for me
01[11] <java> yeah but checking the forum for updates is kinda important for the flow of the class
[11] <olaf> I haver another class and they were trying to setup for saturday and the prof stated that it would be saturday am then he did it on the scheduled time of Wed PM so I missed it
[11] <olaf> O i thought you ment people on the forums in general
[11] <olaf> not just for this class
03[11] * James ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
[11] <olaf> oops
01[11] <java> people being on the forums would be nice as well, but just checking for course updates would be helpful for them
[11] <olaf> I own 2 business the second being the aquarium service so time is hard to come by.
01[11] <java> gotcha
01[11] <java> olaf - do you see macroalgae grow out on your stuff with your cycle approach?
[11] <olaf> so once their is a scheduled time I can try to make a hole in my schedule
[11] <olaf> yes
01[11] <java> do you leave it?
[11] <olaf> some stuff doesn't last though
[11] <olaf> yes
01[11] <java> i like a little macroalgae here and there
[11] <olaf> I get wire algae
[11] <olaf> really cool
01[11] <java> i love when oddball stuff grows out
01[11] <java> red and pink macroalgae
[11] <olaf> yep
[11] <olaf> Some stuff pops out much later
01[11] <java> like what?
[11] <olaf> macro algaes I don't know the name of some of them
01[11] <java> well, i gave it 15, maybe more will show
01[11] <java> was the reading a little more easy to digest this week?
[11] <mchia> I just checked
[11] <mchia> There are 23 views of the rescheduling thread, so everyone should have seen it
01[11] <java> good point!
01[11] <java> that makes me feel a little better
01[11] <java> so i guess i'll start
[11] <olaf> My 24-g nano I got Halimeda about a year after the setup
[11] <olaf> ok
01[11] <java> a year! whoa.
[11] <olaf> yeah
01[11] <java> very cool - hey a nano! we'll definitely talk more about that later
[11] <olaf> I got evergreen star polyps about a 1.5 years old
[11] <olaf> I got some black sun polyps about 4 months ago
[11] <olaf> my nano is 2 years
[11] <olaf> old
01[11] <java> nice!
01[11] <java> so anyhow
01[11] <java> this week i wanted people to get mroe of a feel for metabolism
01[11] <java> it might seem academic
01[11] <java> but it let's you start to get a feel for the flow of nutrients in the tank
01[11] <java> and really underpins the nitrogen cycle
01[11] <java> so many times you see these diagrams of nutrient cycles in biology
01[11] <java> they just look crazy complicated
01[11] <java> really it's jsut important to focus on inputs and outputs
01[11] <java> and combined with the stuff from last week
01[11] <java> like growth curves, growth kinetics
01[11] <java> oxygen levels
01[11] <java> pH
01[11] <java> you can start to visualize metabolic activity better
01[11] <java> as a function of your chemistry
01[11] <java> nutrient levels
01[11] <java> temperature
01[11] <java> etc
01[11] <java> this can help you manipulate your parameters to your advantage
01[11] <java> once you realize it's all interconnected
01[11] <java> so i'm going to go over the powerpoint lecture first, then we'll discuss the readings
01[11] <java> focusing on the microbiology component, of course
01[11] <java> the first slide, in the definition of metabolism, is a key point
[11] <mchia> Do we need to keep it open?
01[11] <java> when bacteria "metabolize" it isn't the same as you or me or your dog eating and breathing
01[11] <java> mchia - it might help but i don't think it's necessary
[11] <mchia> OK
01[11] <java> when bacteria metabolize, that means they're growing
01[11] <java> they can skip meals for a long time, and not grow, but still be alive
01[11] <java> but when they "eat", they're gonna grow
01[11] <java> meaning divide, forming new bacteria
01[11] <java> so if there are excess nutrients, high temps, combination of these, bacteria will bloom
01[11] <java> the other point on that slide is that many different bacteria have found many, many odd ways of acquiring energy fromt he environment around them
01[11] <java> we'll get into that in more detail later, but it's good to see this coming
01[11] <java> because people familiar with the nitrogen cycle as described in hobby literature usually get confused
01[11] <java> when certain microbiological phenomenas are discussed
01[11] <java> metabolism is the process by which organisms produce ATP, which is the fundamental unit of energy for all forms of life
01[11] <java> and bacteria employ various strategies to get there
01[11] <java> relevant to our interests are some notable standouts:
01[11] <java> one is "lithotrophy"
01[11] <java> which is where bacteria use inorganic compounds as the "input" side of metabolism
03[11] * walla2butterfly ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
01[11] <java> this would be typical of the nitrifying bacteria
01[11] <java> hi tami
[11] <walla2butterfly> here ( wiping the salt creep from eyes)
01[11] <java> just going over the powerpoint, discussing the third slide
01[11] <java> not important if you don't have it handy
01[11] <java> anyhow, lithotrophic nitrifying bacteria are those that are characteristic of the step of the N-cycle
01[11] <java> that converts ammonia into nitrite
01[11] <java> a common genus is Nitrosomonas
01[11] <java> in this case, the inorganic substance that is used as the input is ammonium
01[11] <java> derived from the ammonia of decaying organic material
01[11] <java> another relevant metabolic strategy is anaerobic respiration
01[11] <java> this is used by many bacteria, but in our field the common example is Nitrobacter
01[11] <java> i'm sorry, i just jumped ahead
01[11] <java> Nitrobacter is a lithotroph like Nitrosomonas
01[11] <java> I'm over multi-tasking
[11] <walla2butterfly> ( still wiping the salt creep from eyes and wondering were I am)
01[11] <java> lol
01[11] <java> Nitrobacter accomplishes the step of converting nitrite to nitrate
01[11] <java> another lithotrophic metabolite
01[11] <java> and also performs this as part of aerobic respiration
01[11] <java> NOW
01[11] <java> regarding anaerobic respiration
01[11] <java> this step is the final one of the N-cycle
01[11] <java> and converts the nitrate to free nitrogen gas, which makes up the bulk of our atmosphere
01[11] <java> typical genus' that perform this are Pseudomonas and Alcaligenes
01[11] <java> there are other relevant metabolisms ongoing in aquaria
03[11] * Bob ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
01[11] <java> most notably photosynthesis
01[11] <java> which is performed by various algae
01[11] <java> as well as the zooxanthellae present in coral
01[11] <java> because they are all present in a closed system, they are all intertwined
[11] <olaf> Why do they not have these bacteria for the last step of the N-cycle as a product you can use?
01[11] <java> there are some products which i believe are denitrification bacteria
[11] <walla2butterfly> (why?)
01[11] <java> but since they are proprietary the manufacturers don't detail the contents
[11] <olaf> most say reduce ammonia and nitrites
[11] <olaf> ah
01[11] <java> i believe Zeovit is a system for dosing denitrifying bacteria
01[11] <java> but i'm not 100% sure
01[11] <java> they do claim it aids denitrification
[11] <walla2butterfly> (zeovit?)
[11] <olaf> Is it in a Nitrate reactor?
01[11] <java> it's a product made by... Captive Oceans? i believe, in Germany
01[11] <java> they sell the product with dense stones called "zeolites"
01[11] <java> which they say is inherently part of the system
[11] <walla2butterfly> ( oh okay, still waking up)
01[11] <java> and i believe are "culture substrates" for the anaerobic bacteria
01[11] <java> they don't describe it as such, but the fact that it's supposed to function for denitrification
01[11] <java> leads me to try and deduce the system
01[11] <java> i believe it's probably strains of Pseudomonas stutzeri
01[11] <java> which is commonly used in wastewater treatment for denitrification
01[11] <java> and these bacteria are regularly dosed
01[11] <java> i don't think they're hardy, or they don't grow well
01[11] <java> so dosing is very rigorous, and the schedule must be rigidly followed
01[11] <java> it's a super tight system
[11] <olaf> http://www.captiveoceans.com/ is located in Terre Haute
01[11] <java> i'd love to play with it, try it out, but i jsut don't have time to devote to the level of babysitting it requires
[11] <walla2butterfly> ( okay, one eye open, I think I know what you guys are talking about)
[11] <mchia> Does it also improve coloration?
[11] <olaf> so would these mostly be anaerobic
01[11] <java> lol - i thought it wass german
[11] <mchia> http://www.captiveoceans.com/aboutzeovit.html says it does
[11] <olaf> yes but they import the Zeovit part from Germany
01[11] <java> they claim improved coloration, polyp extension, and very low nitrates and dissolved nutrients
01[11] <java> AH!! ok, i'm not going crazy about the German part
01[11] <java> all the effects would be the byproduct of very low nitrates
01[11] <java> from aggressive denitrification
01[11] <java> so just from this conversation alone
01[11] <java> we can see how the n-cycle is an important consideration AFTER a tank is "cycled"
[11] <olaf> because of the bacteria producing sugar for the cells also allowing the cell to allow more to be absorbed>?
[11] <olaf> EQUALLY MORE GROWTH AND COLOR?
[11] <olaf> OOPS
01[11] <java> rephrase the question?
01[11] <java> my impression is that the coloration is just from happy corals living with very low nitrates
01[11] <java> very very low
[11] <olaf> with the certain bacteria that would be produced would it benefit the corals
01[11] <java> yes, by reducing nitrate
01[11] <java> on the natural reef, nitrates are undetectable
01[11] <java> and easy to see why, what with the biggest DSB ever made and all that live rock lol
01[12] <java> corals have adapted evolutionarily
[12] <walla2butterfly> ( relative to the amount of saltwater)\
01[12] <java> to this environment of zero nitrates
01[12] <java> so anything that duplicates it in our closed system approached natural conditions
01[12] <java> approaches
01[12] <java> and makes corals happy
01[12] <java> conversely
01[12] <java> if something "unnatural" is manifested
01[12] <java> like detectable nitrates
01[12] <java> corals don't like that so much
01[12] <java> but it's not like they just croak at the slightest sign of nitrates
01[12] <java> it's a gradual continuum
01[12] <java> many reef tanks have some detectable nitrates
01[12] <java> and the corals live
01[12] <java> but almost universally, reduction of these nitrates leads to improved health
01[12] <java> and growth
01[12] <java> and color
01[12] <java> now, i'd like to get to an important concept about denitrification and oxygen largely absent in hobby literature
01[12] <java> the prevailing notion is that large, solid anaerobic areas are required for denitrification
01[12] <java> hence deep sandbeds (DSBs)
01[12] <java> Jaubert plenums
01[12] <java> nitrate reactors
01[12] <java> many, many technical strategies employed to generate large anaerobic zones
01[12] <java> but if we revisit something in our first week's reading on slide 6
[12] <walla2butterfly> ( environment)
01[12] <java> one can see that bacteria aren't just "aerobic" or "anaerobic"
01[12] <java> there are some that are both
01[12] <java> the presumption that one needs a large solid anaerobic environment to accomplish denitrification
01[12] <java> is rooted in the notion that oxygen is toxic to anaerobic bacteria
01[12] <java> so the idea was that stable anaerobic areas need to be maintained to culture the anaerobes necessary for denitrification
01[12] <java> otherwise, they'll jsut die
01[12] <java> and you won't get denitrifiaction
01[12] <java> and it will be hard to reestablish
01[12] <java> HOWEVER
01[12] <java> there is a category of bacteria who are ok with denitrifying under aerobic conditions, AND don't mind the presence of oxygen
01[12] <java> they're called "facultative anaerobes"
01[12] <java> Pseudomonas stutzeri is a common strain
01[12] <java> it's used in wastewater management as a pure culture
01[12] <java> but notably
01[12] <java> Pseudomonads, as a genus, are the most abundant environmental genus
01[12] <java> Pseudomonas is a common inhabitant of lakes, stream, ocean sediments, etc.
01[12] <java> and a key player in the environment
01[12] <java> and likely present in most naturally-seeded aquaria
01[12] <java> because of these facts
01[12] <java> it is likely that denitrification is a common feature in all aquaria to some degree
01[12] <java> whether there is a specialized apparatus in place to support it or not
01[12] <java> so, this brings us back to a question John had last week
01[12] <java> asking about a sulfer reactor
01[12] <java> sulfur
01[12] <java> many times people initially setup a tank with some form of "extra" denitrification
01[12] <java> capacity
01[12] <java> because it is presumed that nitrates will be a problem
01[12] <java> but really, many times with a properly stocked, i.e. not overloaded tank
01[12] <java> it jsut isn't
01[12] <java> even though no special steps are taken to reduce it
01[12] <java> that is because denitrification to some degree is unavoidable as long as there's live rock, and live sand
01[12] <java> are there any question so far?
01[12] <java> questions
[12] <olaf> nope
01[12] <java> in the context of our hobby, interesting, yes?
[12] <James> very interesting
[12] <mchia> So if the tank is stocked properly, there is no need for denitrifying equipment?
[12] <mchia> DSB, sulfur, etc.
01[12] <java> many times, no
01[12] <java> but it depends on ones needs
01[12] <java> because feeding also plays a role
01[12] <java> some people just LIKE to feed frequently, either fish or coral
01[12] <java> to drive growth
01[12] <java> in this case the scraps may be hard to manage
[12] <olaf> I have one client that over-feeds OMG! "But the fish are always hungry" I told him that he has trained his fish
01[12] <java> exactly
01[12] <java> in cases like that, it may be necessary
01[12] <java> to set somemthing up to deal with the extra waste
01[12] <java> but if you count feeding as part of your "setup"
[12] <olaf> after telling him for months to stop and him watching his corals and anemones die off he finally stopped
01[12] <java> in terms of "bioload", nutrient import, etc
01[12] <java> then that "setup" isn't balanced
[12] <olaf> I always setup for this case but he was extreme!
[12] <James> Jason, do you feel that there is an advatage in naturally seeding an aquarium vs using bottled products?
01[12] <java> that's the approach i prefer
[12] <olaf> I finally got it under control and balanced back out by added extra bacteria
01[12] <java> i'll tell you why
01[12] <java> (but in olaf's case, remidiation is understandable and a valid approach in my opinion)
01[12] <java> remediation
01[12] <java> since the n-cycle steps feed into one another
01[12] <java> and really, the pool of decaying matter feeding the n-cycle is usually in excess, and limited by the rate of aerobic, nitrifying bacteria
01[12] <java> breaking it down
01[12] <java> AND
01[12] <java> the typical bottled product is aerobic denitrifiers
01[12] <java> when you add all these bacteria which suddenly find themselves gorged with nutrients
01[12] <java> and grow
01[12] <java> grow meaning multiply
01[12] <java> the anaerobic side of the n-cycle
01[12] <java> might not be able to accomodate all the nitrate that's produced
01[12] <java> because as olaf pointed out, the bottled part of that step of the cycle isn't common or easy to dose
01[12] <java> so without somehow increasing the numbers or activity of denitrifiers
01[12] <java> one MIGHT get a logjam of nitrates
01[12] <java> empirically, this might not always happen
01[12] <java> but theoretically it can
[12] <Bob> Bio-waste being a large variable. How do you know when enough food is present, with the occupants always growing?
01[12] <java> usually if not enough food is present there's a slow equilibration to levels where everything balances out
01[12] <java> problems occur when things happen too quickly
01[12] <java> that can be both adding too much nutrient, as in overfeeding or a death like a fish or snail
01[12] <java> or taking away nutrient
[12] <walla2butterfly> ( or taking away nutrient ?)
01[12] <java> like "cleaning" the sandbed, or if detritus has accumulated and the tank has balanced to it, a vacuuming
01[12] <java> or suddenly adding a skimmer and aggressively skimming
01[12] <java> these things might lead to a bacterial die-off, up[setting the balance
01[12] <java> slow changes!
01[12] <java> even cleaning!
01[12] <java> i've had stuff accumulate behind live rock in pockets of sand, not really known it was there, but all levels still zero
01[12] <java> ammonia, nitrite, nitrate
01[12] <java> that is
01[12] <java> it accumulated slowly, breaks down slowly
[12] <olaf> I did find that adding the bacteria did damage to the balance. Hair algae died off, Hector's goby got thin.
01[12] <java> losing the hair algae was good though!
[12] <olaf> yes
01[12] <java> shall we take 10 minutes for a break?
[12] <olaf> but it was feeding the tangs and gobies and a home for other mico-inverts
[12] <walla2butterfly> okay
[12] <olaf> k
01[12] <java> OH! interesting about the algae
[12] <mchia> OK
[12] <Bob> I assume that changing lighting times & amounts would have the same effect?
01[12] <java> yes
01[12] <java> big changes at least
01[12] <java> shortening an hour at a time to get to a target photoperiod is usually ok
[12] <walla2butterfly> well my tank is in trouble then,
01[12] <java> uhoh
[12] <walla2butterfly> I have my lights on the side of the tank trying to find a new cover for the bulbs
01[12] <java> jsut changed the angle?
[12] <Bob> I had a mixture of PC's & MH and due to a increase of hair algae I stopped the MH. Big mistake right?
[12] <walla2butterfly> no is literally on one side
01[12] <java> well...
01[12] <java> do you have corals?
[12] <Bob> No
01[12] <java> probably ok for losing the algae
[12] <walla2butterfly> thinking about buying some plexiglass and rubberbanding it on
01[12] <java> but if the algae dies off rapidly you might see a spike in nitrates if you have an established tank
[12] <walla2butterfly> then came home from work yesterday to find one of my rocks slipped (?) and was on top of my oyster but he seems to be okay
01[12] <java> if it's new, maybe even ammonia
01[12] <java> ok, i'll be back in 10!!
[12] <olaf> PC's and MH?
[12] <walla2butterfly> bye
[12] <olaf> i am back from 10 oops
[12] <walla2butterfly> so I am confussed
[12] <olaf> about?
[12] <Bob> Power compacts and metal halides
[12] <olaf> o duh
[12] <walla2butterfly> I have only heard of cyanobacteria as being bad, but in the reading it doenst sound like such a bad thing
[12] <olaf> in check it is ok
[12] <mchia> It's bad when there's too much.
[12] <walla2butterfly> so is it only if it takes over as in too much
[12] <olaf> it is when you get a bloom it isn't good and become unsightly
[12] <mchia> I have lots in one tank
[12] <Bob> I think that's the key "in check'
[12] <walla2butterfly> what exactly does it look like the reading says it comes in many colors
[12] <walla2butterfly> I have some black stuff under some of my rocks, thougth it was sometype of sponge but now wondering
[12] <walla2butterfly> it doesnt have the holes like sponge
[12] <mchia> Mine is red
[12] <Bob> The cyno I had was red and resembled slime.
[12] <olaf> I have picked up clients where their rock is covered in cyanobacteria
[12] <mchia> It looks slimy & translucent
[12] <walla2butterfly> no this is black with kind of grey look but not translucent
[12] <mchia> Freshwater cyano is green & translucent
[12] <olaf> so thin it is like peeling carpet off their rock
[12] <Bob> Another indicator I had was a colection of gas bubbles under it.
[12] <walla2butterfly> no this is thick
[12] <olaf> think
[12] <mchia> The bubbles are when there's light
[12] <walla2butterfly> in the nano reading it mentions "mats" that is what got me thinking
[12] <olaf> Nitrogen is possibly the bubbles
[12] <walla2butterfly> it is more like some bubble gum
[12] <walla2butterfly> stuck there
[12] <olaf> is this FW or SW?
[12] <walla2butterfly> I knew I had some but when I pulled out my LR to clean the tank after a power outage, ( lost some life) I found that there was a lot more
[12] <mchia> Perhaps colonial sea squirts.
[12] <walla2butterfly> mmm
[12] <walla2butterfly> I guess it is okay not growing at any enourmous rate
[12] <Bob> you may have something else. I read about a buildup that occurs between LR & sand
[12] <walla2butterfly> have to look on chuck's site about sea squirts
[12] <olaf> or could be colony sponge, encrusting sponge, etc
[12] <walla2butterfly> looks soft but no holes like I have seen in spounges
[12] <walla2butterfly> but similar
[12] <walla2butterfly> are you guys familiar with this site http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyummy42/index.html
[12] <olaf> There are many types of sponges some are not even listed
[12] <walla2butterfly> watching blue planet, lots of stuff still to learn about
[12] <walla2butterfly> and Id
01[12] <java> hey
01[12] <java> hey
01[12] <java> oops, sorry
[12] <walla2butterfly> (bob) it grows on the underside of the LR but not down next to the sand
01[12] <java> i want to spend a little time on photosynthesis
[12] <olaf> k
[12] <mchia> OK
01[12] <java> although relevant to algae, that's not really my main concern
01[12] <java> more regarding zooxanthellae
01[12] <java> just to make sure everybody understands
01[12] <java> zooxanthellae are photosynthetic dinoflagellates
01[12] <java> which subsist in a symbiotic relationship with coral polyps
01[12] <java> making most corals effectively photosynthetic
01[12] <java> even though they are technically animals
01[12] <java> so, as reviewed in my powerpoint lecture
01[12] <java> photosynthesis is the harvesting of light to assists in the utilization of CO2 for metabolism
01[12] <java> assist
03[12] * maximp3 ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
01[12] <java> there are 3 different components which i will not review in detail
01[12] <java> but again, it is important to note inputs and outputs and a couple key concepts
[12] <mchia> Which slide?
[12] <walla2butterfly> the first article is a powerpoint
01[12] <java> starting at slide 16 - the three components are the light reaction, because light is required
[13] <mchia> OK
01[13] <java> the dark reaction - because light isn't necessaary
01[13] <java> and the electron transport system
01[13] <java> we won't be going over them in detail
01[13] <java> but i will come back to the ETS
01[13] <java> because it is the mnachnism by which photons of light are harvested and their energy shunted into photosynthetic reactions
03[13] * maximp3 ([email protected]) has left #micro08
01[13] <java> whoa - mechanism
01[13] <java> most notably, the input is CO2 and light
01[13] <java> which makes photosynthesis a logical coupling to the aerobic respiration performed by not only bacteria
01[13] <java> but anything else aerobic as well, including macroorganisms
01[13] <java> photosynthesis is a component of a O2/CO2 "cycle in all aquaria
01[13] <java> photosynthetic orhganisms consume waste, in the form of CO2, of aerrobic animals and bacteria
01[13] <java> and although we won
01[13] <java> 't go
01[13] <java> to super detail regarding chemistry
01[13] <java> this has implication upon pH as well
01[13] <java> considering that pH is a direct function of dissolved CO2
01[13] <java> i mentioned harvesting lilght
01[13] <java> how is this done? (rhetorical)
01[13] <java> all photosynthetic organisms have light harvesting pigments
01[13] <java> which are molecules which become "excited" when exposed to light
01[13] <java> these molecules are physically connected to other molecules
01[13] <java> which pass along the energy from light along a molecular chain
01[13] <java> like dominoes falling
01[13] <java> this is called the electron transport system
01[13] <java> as for the main light harvesting pigments
01[13] <java> the most well known are chlorophylls
01[13] <java> notably, chlorophyll a and b
01[13] <java> these molecules get "excited" by a specific wavelength of light
01[13] <java> so although they work just fine when sunlight hits them
01[13] <java> really it's only a narrow band of wavelengths within the full spectrum of light that truly work, molecularly
01[13] <java> this is why in both aquarium and agricultural lighting, we see certain wavelengths well represented
01[13] <java> actinics usually come in wavelengths of 420nm and 460nm
01[13] <java> which coincidentally
01[13] <java> is the absorption peak for chlorophyll a and b
01[13] <java> those chlorophylls also absorb around 680nm
[13] <walla2butterfly> (nm ?)
01[13] <java> blue (460/420) and red (mid-600)
01[13] <java> nm is the unit used to represent wavelenght, nanometer
[13] <walla2butterfly> (k)
01[13] <java> you can see it used on the labeling of bulbs
01[13] <java> and it represents certain colors of light
[13] <mchia> What's the difference between chlorophyll a & b?
[13] <mchia> Is there an important difference?
01[13] <java> functionally they do the same thing, but they absrob at slightly differnt wavelength
02[13] * Bob ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: )
01[13] <java> so, if chlorophylls only absorb
01[13] <java> at certain wavelengths
01[13] <java> then who cares about wavelengths otehr than those, right?
01[13] <java> one would think that aquarium lights should be narrow band, with specific wavelengths
01[13] <java> so why the "full spectrum"
01[13] <java> why use natural daylight
01[13] <java> or 10K
01[13] <java> well, early in the hobby
01[13] <java> chlorophylls were the only pigments understood to harvest light
01[13] <java> so actinics were developed
01[13] <java> thinking that they were focusing on the specific wavelengths for photosynthesis
01[13] <java> but later it was discovered that there were many other pigments
01[13] <java> called "accessory pigments"
01[13] <java> which absorb llight and pass along the energy to chlorophylls
01[13] <java> it was realized that cholorophylls weren't the only starting point for the ETS, but could also be an intermediate step
01[13] <java> so there are other pigments which absorb light of colors other than the 420/460 blue and mid-600s red
01[13] <java> some are known as carotenoids
01[13] <java> and xanthophylls
01[13] <java> these are relatively recent discovereies
01[13] <java> and puts the idea of narrow-spectrum bulbs as being most useful into question
01[13] <java> even now it isn't uncommon to see actinics and MHs used in combinations which cover very little of the natural spectrum
01[13] <java> and corals seem to adapt just fine, often with very vibrant colors
01[13] <java> what you are seeing is the accumulation of pigments useful to the zooxanthellae under those specific lighting conditions
[13] <walla2butterfly> ( been reading alot about not needing actinics lately, mostly for the eye)
01[13] <java> those pigments which are harvesting the light msot effectively
01[13] <java> ah yes, are actinics NECESSARY
01[13] <java> if one thinks about what corals have evolutionarily adapted to
01[13] <java> i.e., natural sunlight
01[13] <java> then actinics seem odd
01[13] <java> mind you, they certainly don't hurt
01[13] <java> but considering that stony coral growth is greatest at the reef top and within 3-4 meters of the surface
01[13] <java> then most corals have evolved to growing in a full sunlight spectrum
01[13] <java> the spectral "Temperature" of the sun is 6700K
01[13] <java> a lighting spectrum not liked by reefkeepers
01[13] <java> because it's yellow
01[13] <java> and tends to wash out a lot of color from LR and coral
01[13] <java> 10K approaches the natural spectrum, but is crisper white
01[13] <java> but because of what i mentioned about accessory pigments
01[13] <java> and the fact that they absorb light at all sorts of wavelengths
01[13] <java> it has become obvious why corals don't grow very well under pure actinics only
01[13] <java> even though actinics theoretically stimulate chlorophylls directly
01[13] <java> the other accessory pigments contribute a great deal to light harvesting
01[13] <java> and effective photosynthesis
01[13] <java> i could spend a full 3 hours on lighting alone
01[13] <java> but i wanted to briefly touch on this topic because lighting can be such an issue
01[13] <java> and many choices are made based exclusively on aesthetics
01[13] <java> using the assumption that it's all the same, biologically
[13] <walla2butterfly> ( I could listen for a full 3 hrs)
01[13] <java> "14K or 20K? pick the one that looks best, that you like the most" for example
01[13] <java>
[13] <olaf> why would you go that high?
01[13] <java> some people do, they jsut like the fact that it makes their corals "glow"
[13] <olaf> ah
[13] <walla2butterfly> the bigger the better mentallity)
01[13] <java> that too - on my tank i like 1 dual daylight, one dual actinic
01[13] <java> i feel like it covers a lot, spectrally
01[13] <java> the colors are a little yellower than most prefer
01[13] <java> but again, i want to make sure the photosynthetic apparatus
01[13] <java> feeding my corals, gets well stimulated
01[13] <java> 14K is really popular
[13] <olaf> I try to get the 50/50 67K/420nm 10K/460nm
01[13] <java> but it hass such a narrow emission spectrum
01[13] <java> we think a lot alike olaf!
01[13] <java> mine is a sunpaq 6700k?10K
01[13] <java> and dual actinic 420/460
[13] <olaf> I have been check out the PFO Solaris
[13] <olaf> all LED programable
01[13] <java> those are nice
01[13] <java> $$ too
[13] <olaf> $$ though
[13] <olaf> lol
01[13] <java> one thing about led
01[13] <java> this is off the cuff, too
01[13] <java> because i'm not sure how well i remember the spectrum
01[13] <java> but when i saw an emission spectrograph of an led system
01[13] <java> there were some notable deficienceies...
01[13] <java> it was a very broad, plataeu
01[13] <java> but i think it dropped off way before mid-600, which is a large part of the photosynthetic absorption peak
01[13] <java> it wasn't solaris though
[13] <olaf> "they say" that they have 6700 & 10000 but I would like to actually see the Spectrograph
01[13] <java> it was another manufacturer looking to break into the market
01[13] <java> and i saw his spectrograph, and it bothered me
[13] <olaf> Drs Foster & Smith and as small 4 bulb led lighting system
01[13] <java> becasue it was tuned around "crisp white" "blue", for aesthetics
01[13] <java> but was missing the mid-600s red
01[13] <java> i don't think that's good
[13] <mchia> Is the non - aquarium LED's about the same as the aquarium LED's?
[13] <olaf> that you can chain a couple together
01[13] <java> I GUESS HOMEMADE WOULD BE DIFFERENT
01[13] <java> oops, sorry, yellinglol
[13] <olaf> big difference
01[13] <java> yeah, you could defintiely tuent he spectrum you want
[13] <olaf> unless you are willing to spend the time and $$ to find the bulbs
01[13] <java> tune the
01[13] <java> but this commercial version spectrum (I CAN'T REMEMBER THE BRAND!! ARG) didn't look like it was geared towards photosynthesis
[13] <olaf> then you would have to get something to bring down the electrical current
01[13] <java> and photosynthesis is the whole point!
01[13] <java> unless it's jsut a FOWLR
01[13] <java> but even then, the coraline has to make a living!
[13] <walla2butterfly>
01[13] <java> so, that's why it's important to have a sense of the photosynthtic side of things
01[13] <java> make you look at lighting selection a little differently
01[13] <java> they're not just for looks
01[13] <java> think about the natural sun
01[13] <java> where your inhabitants come from
01[13] <java> what they've evolved to grow from
01[13] <java> the molecular side too
01[13] <java> realize that although you can enhance certain wavelengths for aesthetics
01[13] <java> more actinic if you really like it is ok
01[13] <java> but don't shortchnge the rest of the spectrum
01[13] <java> don't let the lighting be completely deficient in a certain area
01[13] <java> it IS possible to have a very bright "blue" actinic effect overall
01[13] <java> if that's what you like
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01[13] <java> but just make sure that it's ON TOP OF some light energy that representative of the natural spectrum
[13] <hello> hello all
01[13] <java> hi
[13] <olaf> I usually use the actinic as a morning and evening light but keeping it on all day then having the 67K and 10K come on an hour after. This is when I don't do the 50/50's
01[13] <java> ah, i see
01[13] <java> that makes sense
[13] <walla2butterfly> actinics for when company comes over LOL
01[13] <java> haha
01[13] <java> that's fine too
01[13] <java> and i mean really
[13] <olaf> for the larger verts it is a more pleasant way of waking up and putting the fish to rest "sleep"
01[13] <java> corals are very adaptable
01[13] <java> there are people who keep exclusively 20K over their SPS
01[13] <java> a VERY narrow representation
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01[13] <java> and the corals adapt
01[13] <java> but it's not the natural state of things for them
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[13] <walla2butterfly> looks like hello is having problems there
01[13] <java> hello/goodbye!
[13] <olaf> by the way I took your Power Point and made a PDF for those who want to have a printable version (10 pages)
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[13] <walla2butterfly> I just printed the power point
[13] <hello> Hi this is Fishie, for some reason it has me listed a hello
01[13] <java> oh, that's fine. and thanks
01[13] <java> hi fishie
[13] <walla2butterfly> I tried to find a dawn simulator a few years ago but nothing
01[13] <java> hey fishie - did you know chat wass rescheduled today?
[13] <hello> I've got a light stick that gives me sunrise, daytime and moonlight
[13] <olaf> this is one reason that the Solaris is exsiting
[13] <hello> It's made my Profilux and is an auxillaryto my controller.
[13] <olaf> you can program day cycles and lunar cycles
[13] <hello> It is really really cool. At 7:00 am I get a RED sunrise and it fades until about 10:00 when it becomes whiet
[13] <hello> Then in the evening it goes from red sunsut to blue moonlight
[13] <hello> All controlled by the controller. GREAT!
[13] <walla2butterfly> cool of read about the lunar but not heard of the sun
01[13] <java> i'd like to see a MH that moves as if the sun is tracking across the sky
[13] <hello> recheduled to when?
01[13] <java> no permanent shadow spots
01[13] <java> or fewer,a t leasst
[13] <olaf> they have this also
01[13] <java> 11AM to 2PM, we're wrapping up
[13] <mchia> Actually at sunset its blueish underwater, not red.
[13] <olaf> it is a small motor that is used with HQI's
[13] <olaf> hanging HQI's
[13] <hello> oh, well, I'll read it afterwards.
01[13] <java> ah, i saw one but i though it wass homemade
[13] <hello> There is a light bar I've seen that moves your MH light back and forth
[13] <hello> It's totally controllable
[13] <olaf> Liveaquaria's Diver's Den uses them so they can cover more area with less light
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[13] <olaf> they have them swinging the HQI's over the corals back and forth
[13] <olaf> I think it would have to be slowed down if it was used as a sun path
01[13] <java> swinging? like fast?
[13] <olaf> no
01[13] <java> ok, lol, that would drive me nuts to works somewhere where the lights are swinging like crazy
[13] <olaf> like a couple inches per minute
01[13] <java> very interesting
[13] <olaf> light track
01[13] <java> i got my M. spumosa from Diver's Den
01[13] <java> i love that site
01[13] <java> i love that you can pick the specimen that you want
01[14] <java> and that they're full colonies, not frags
[14] <mchia> It's supposed to move slowly
[14] <mchia> http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/gene ... agesid=377
[14] <olaf> http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... atid=18485 Current LED
[14] <olaf> I went to that last year
[14] <olaf> it was really cool
[14] <olaf> I will e going again tis year
01[14] <java> i hear it's an amazing facility
[14] <olaf> be
[14] <olaf> yep
01[14] <java> too far for me
[14] <olaf> Gualala Robotics Light Rail 3.5
01[14] <java> i wish i lived close to premium aquatics too, so i could pick up LR in a water bucket
[14] <olaf> it was a 6.5 hour drive for me
01[14] <java> NOT BAD
01[14] <java> i'd do it
[14] <olaf> just around the lake
[14] <olaf> Lake Michigan
01[14] <java> lol, "just"
[14] <olaf> The closest LFS is 50+ miles away
01[14] <java> ouch, but i really don't like most LFS in my area so i guess it's not too different
01[14] <java> order corals onlilne
01[14] <java> DIVERS DEN!!
[14] <olaf> I order everything online
[14] <olaf> I would just like to be able to hand pick everything by sight
[14] <olaf> I use them a lot
01[14] <java> it's a lot cheaper and better quality than i can get in person
01[14] <java> even shipped dry, overnight, the live rock is 10x better and half the price
01[14] <java> than any LFS in my area, 50+ miles
01[14] <java> and i'm not exactly out in the boonies
01[14] <java> i'm near NYC
[14] <olaf> I am across the lake from Chicago
[14] <walla2butterfly> my LFS is getting out of the salt buisness, so i guess I will be strictly on line soon
[14] <olaf> I went to grade school in Orange County
01[14] <java> really? whart town?
01[14] <java> what
[14] <olaf> NYMA
[14] <olaf> cornwall on huson
[14] <walla2butterfly> so I gather class is over?
01[14] <java> yeah
01[14] <java> any questions?
[14] <olaf> tangents
[14] <olaf> yes
[14] <walla2butterfly> bye everyone bueatiful day want to get out in it
01[14] <java> k, thanks for coming!
[14] <olaf> what about lithophils that take care of PO4
01[14] <java> slow growers
[14] <walla2butterfly>
01[14] <java> and not a major metabolic pathway
[14] <walla2butterfly> Hurry and get the new reading on or give us a hint about what it is this week
01[14] <java> phosphates are more absorbed by plants than by bacteria
[14] <olaf> so there is no commercial value
[14] <olaf> I agree
01[14] <java> oh - next reading will be more ecology based, to try and put things into spatial perrspective
[14] <walla2butterfly> bye
03[14] * walla2butterfly ([email protected]) has left #micro08
[14] <olaf> some of my aquariums can keep plants (tangs eating them to nothing
[14] <mchia> Bye everyone!
01[14] <java> i always keep some macroalgae to outcompete nuisance algae
01[14] <java> BYE! thanks for coming and participating
01[14] <java> plus it can be pretty and kind of exotic
[14] <olaf> I do too but fish are depleating my stock
01[14] <java> my tank is too small for fish (in my opinion)
01[14] <java> i jsut like the coral and macroalgae
[14] <olaf> I have one 6-g nano like that planted with DSB
[14] <olaf> but most of the tanks are 125+g
01[14] <java> how deep the sb?
[14] <olaf> with max load
[14] <olaf> 3" just measured it
01[14] <java> do you have any pics of your tanks online anywhere? they sound pretty wild
[14] <olaf> never done a water change in 4 years
01[14] <java> NICE
01[14] <java> lol
[14] <olaf> actually I don't even owna camera
01[14] <java> TABOO!
[14] <olaf> lol
[14] <olaf> water quality is perfect
01[14] <java> water change police! woop woop!
01[14] <java> lol
01[14] <java> i belive it
[14] <olaf> I do a test once in a while but it is always the same
01[14] <java> i had a 0.8 gallon pico, no wc in almost a year, it was gorgeous
[14] <olaf> I will even place pellet food in their to make a change
[14] <olaf> but no effect
01[14] <java> happy bacteria
[14] <olaf> I also have amphipods, copopods
[14] <olaf> limpets
[14] <olaf> bristle worms
01[14] <java> it's that natural approach, soft-cycle with good quality live rock
01[14] <java> DIVERSITY
[14] <olaf> I started with Cell Pore then I took live sand and buried it
[14] <olaf> then added the inverts then the plants
01[14] <java> you keep stony corals at all?
[14] <olaf> I haven't changed the filter either
[14] <olaf> only what has come on the rock
01[14] <java> so no dosing calcium or carbonate
[14] <olaf> back sun polyps
[14] <olaf> once in a while
[14] <olaf> my pH and Calcium is good
01[14] <java> interesting... borrow a camera - post some pics!
[14] <olaf> I haven't check hardness
01[14] <java> well, it was a good class today i think
01[14] <java> good discussions
01[14] <java> i could do this all day
01[14] <java> but i gotta run
[14] <olaf> in my 24 gallon nano I put a Hairy Sea Hare in yesterday
[14] <olaf> rotifers
[14] <olaf> and copopods
[14] <olaf> k
01[14] <java> i'll post the chat in a little while
[14] <olaf> do you want the PDF?
[14] <olaf> I can send it
01[14] <java> and the new reading will go up monday
[14] <olaf> k
01[14] <java> sure, i'll take a copy
[14] <olaf> how do I attach it
[14] <olaf> forum?
01[14] <java> yeah, that'll do
01[14] <java> thanks, i appreciate that
[14] <olaf> k
[14] <olaf> have a good day everyone
[14] <olaf> laters
01[14] <java> see you guys on the forumand/or next week!
01[14] <java> thanks, you too
02[14] * olaf ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: )
[14] <James> thanks, Jason
[14] <James> bye all
Session Ident: #micro08
Session Close: Sat Jan 19 10:37:31 2008
Session Start: Sat Jan 19 10:37:31 2008
Session Ident: #micro08
03[10] * Now talking in #micro08
03[10] * Topic is 'Welcome to MACO - Reef Microbiology 2008'
03[10] * Set by wade on Wed Dec 31 19:00:01
03[10] * olaf ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
01[11] <java> good morning!
01[11] <java> WHERE IS EVERYONE??
01[11] <java> i hope people are checking their emails for course updates like the rescheduling of this chat
01[11] <java> i know at least one person is not here who was aware of the change
01[11] <java> Tami posted in the forum.
01[11] <java> maybe a hard night lol
01[11] <java> hey olaf!
01[11] <java> i liked your setup post
[11] <olaf> hey
01[11] <java> your tanks must be gorgeous with such fresh live rock, soft-cycled
[11] <olaf> thanks
[11] <olaf> the only issue is the bad critters
01[11] <java> what have you had probems with?
[11] <olaf> clients pick certain fish but then some start disappearing
[11] <olaf> mantis and red eyed crabs
01[11] <java> i see
[11] <mchia> I didn't receive anything in my email
[11] <mchia> I check the forums regularly, so that's how I found out about it.
01[11] <java> !!
01[11] <java> i sent out an email through the workgroups email client on the MACO site!
[11] <olaf> Red eyed crabs watch the firefish dart into their burrow then come in after them blocking the hole then they are gone
[11] <olaf> yeah I don't get an email either
[11] <olaf> I just check the forum
01[11] <java> very interesting, because i got the email since i'm in the workgroups list
01[11] <java> i wish more people were on the forum
01[11] <java> it's the easiest place for exchanging all sorts of info
01[11] <java> and people can post at their convenience
[11] <olaf> yeah that would be nice but with the way things are a lot of poeple just don't have the time
[11] <olaf> this is a great time for me
01[11] <java> yeah but checking the forum for updates is kinda important for the flow of the class
[11] <olaf> I haver another class and they were trying to setup for saturday and the prof stated that it would be saturday am then he did it on the scheduled time of Wed PM so I missed it
[11] <olaf> O i thought you ment people on the forums in general
[11] <olaf> not just for this class
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[11] <olaf> oops
01[11] <java> people being on the forums would be nice as well, but just checking for course updates would be helpful for them
[11] <olaf> I own 2 business the second being the aquarium service so time is hard to come by.
01[11] <java> gotcha
01[11] <java> olaf - do you see macroalgae grow out on your stuff with your cycle approach?
[11] <olaf> so once their is a scheduled time I can try to make a hole in my schedule
[11] <olaf> yes
01[11] <java> do you leave it?
[11] <olaf> some stuff doesn't last though
[11] <olaf> yes
01[11] <java> i like a little macroalgae here and there
[11] <olaf> I get wire algae
[11] <olaf> really cool
01[11] <java> i love when oddball stuff grows out
01[11] <java> red and pink macroalgae
[11] <olaf> yep
[11] <olaf> Some stuff pops out much later
01[11] <java> like what?
[11] <olaf> macro algaes I don't know the name of some of them
01[11] <java> well, i gave it 15, maybe more will show
01[11] <java> was the reading a little more easy to digest this week?
[11] <mchia> I just checked
[11] <mchia> There are 23 views of the rescheduling thread, so everyone should have seen it
01[11] <java> good point!
01[11] <java> that makes me feel a little better
01[11] <java> so i guess i'll start
[11] <olaf> My 24-g nano I got Halimeda about a year after the setup
[11] <olaf> ok
01[11] <java> a year! whoa.
[11] <olaf> yeah
01[11] <java> very cool - hey a nano! we'll definitely talk more about that later
[11] <olaf> I got evergreen star polyps about a 1.5 years old
[11] <olaf> I got some black sun polyps about 4 months ago
[11] <olaf> my nano is 2 years
[11] <olaf> old
01[11] <java> nice!
01[11] <java> so anyhow
01[11] <java> this week i wanted people to get mroe of a feel for metabolism
01[11] <java> it might seem academic
01[11] <java> but it let's you start to get a feel for the flow of nutrients in the tank
01[11] <java> and really underpins the nitrogen cycle
01[11] <java> so many times you see these diagrams of nutrient cycles in biology
01[11] <java> they just look crazy complicated
01[11] <java> really it's jsut important to focus on inputs and outputs
01[11] <java> and combined with the stuff from last week
01[11] <java> like growth curves, growth kinetics
01[11] <java> oxygen levels
01[11] <java> pH
01[11] <java> you can start to visualize metabolic activity better
01[11] <java> as a function of your chemistry
01[11] <java> nutrient levels
01[11] <java> temperature
01[11] <java> etc
01[11] <java> this can help you manipulate your parameters to your advantage
01[11] <java> once you realize it's all interconnected
01[11] <java> so i'm going to go over the powerpoint lecture first, then we'll discuss the readings
01[11] <java> focusing on the microbiology component, of course
01[11] <java> the first slide, in the definition of metabolism, is a key point
[11] <mchia> Do we need to keep it open?
01[11] <java> when bacteria "metabolize" it isn't the same as you or me or your dog eating and breathing
01[11] <java> mchia - it might help but i don't think it's necessary
[11] <mchia> OK
01[11] <java> when bacteria metabolize, that means they're growing
01[11] <java> they can skip meals for a long time, and not grow, but still be alive
01[11] <java> but when they "eat", they're gonna grow
01[11] <java> meaning divide, forming new bacteria
01[11] <java> so if there are excess nutrients, high temps, combination of these, bacteria will bloom
01[11] <java> the other point on that slide is that many different bacteria have found many, many odd ways of acquiring energy fromt he environment around them
01[11] <java> we'll get into that in more detail later, but it's good to see this coming
01[11] <java> because people familiar with the nitrogen cycle as described in hobby literature usually get confused
01[11] <java> when certain microbiological phenomenas are discussed
01[11] <java> metabolism is the process by which organisms produce ATP, which is the fundamental unit of energy for all forms of life
01[11] <java> and bacteria employ various strategies to get there
01[11] <java> relevant to our interests are some notable standouts:
01[11] <java> one is "lithotrophy"
01[11] <java> which is where bacteria use inorganic compounds as the "input" side of metabolism
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01[11] <java> this would be typical of the nitrifying bacteria
01[11] <java> hi tami
[11] <walla2butterfly> here ( wiping the salt creep from eyes)
01[11] <java> just going over the powerpoint, discussing the third slide
01[11] <java> not important if you don't have it handy
01[11] <java> anyhow, lithotrophic nitrifying bacteria are those that are characteristic of the step of the N-cycle
01[11] <java> that converts ammonia into nitrite
01[11] <java> a common genus is Nitrosomonas
01[11] <java> in this case, the inorganic substance that is used as the input is ammonium
01[11] <java> derived from the ammonia of decaying organic material
01[11] <java> another relevant metabolic strategy is anaerobic respiration
01[11] <java> this is used by many bacteria, but in our field the common example is Nitrobacter
01[11] <java> i'm sorry, i just jumped ahead
01[11] <java> Nitrobacter is a lithotroph like Nitrosomonas
01[11] <java> I'm over multi-tasking
[11] <walla2butterfly> ( still wiping the salt creep from eyes and wondering were I am)
01[11] <java> lol
01[11] <java> Nitrobacter accomplishes the step of converting nitrite to nitrate
01[11] <java> another lithotrophic metabolite
01[11] <java> and also performs this as part of aerobic respiration
01[11] <java> NOW
01[11] <java> regarding anaerobic respiration
01[11] <java> this step is the final one of the N-cycle
01[11] <java> and converts the nitrate to free nitrogen gas, which makes up the bulk of our atmosphere
01[11] <java> typical genus' that perform this are Pseudomonas and Alcaligenes
01[11] <java> there are other relevant metabolisms ongoing in aquaria
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01[11] <java> most notably photosynthesis
01[11] <java> which is performed by various algae
01[11] <java> as well as the zooxanthellae present in coral
01[11] <java> because they are all present in a closed system, they are all intertwined
[11] <olaf> Why do they not have these bacteria for the last step of the N-cycle as a product you can use?
01[11] <java> there are some products which i believe are denitrification bacteria
[11] <walla2butterfly> (why?)
01[11] <java> but since they are proprietary the manufacturers don't detail the contents
[11] <olaf> most say reduce ammonia and nitrites
[11] <olaf> ah
01[11] <java> i believe Zeovit is a system for dosing denitrifying bacteria
01[11] <java> but i'm not 100% sure
01[11] <java> they do claim it aids denitrification
[11] <walla2butterfly> (zeovit?)
[11] <olaf> Is it in a Nitrate reactor?
01[11] <java> it's a product made by... Captive Oceans? i believe, in Germany
01[11] <java> they sell the product with dense stones called "zeolites"
01[11] <java> which they say is inherently part of the system
[11] <walla2butterfly> ( oh okay, still waking up)
01[11] <java> and i believe are "culture substrates" for the anaerobic bacteria
01[11] <java> they don't describe it as such, but the fact that it's supposed to function for denitrification
01[11] <java> leads me to try and deduce the system
01[11] <java> i believe it's probably strains of Pseudomonas stutzeri
01[11] <java> which is commonly used in wastewater treatment for denitrification
01[11] <java> and these bacteria are regularly dosed
01[11] <java> i don't think they're hardy, or they don't grow well
01[11] <java> so dosing is very rigorous, and the schedule must be rigidly followed
01[11] <java> it's a super tight system
[11] <olaf> http://www.captiveoceans.com/ is located in Terre Haute
01[11] <java> i'd love to play with it, try it out, but i jsut don't have time to devote to the level of babysitting it requires
[11] <walla2butterfly> ( okay, one eye open, I think I know what you guys are talking about)
[11] <mchia> Does it also improve coloration?
[11] <olaf> so would these mostly be anaerobic
01[11] <java> lol - i thought it wass german
[11] <mchia> http://www.captiveoceans.com/aboutzeovit.html says it does
[11] <olaf> yes but they import the Zeovit part from Germany
01[11] <java> they claim improved coloration, polyp extension, and very low nitrates and dissolved nutrients
01[11] <java> AH!! ok, i'm not going crazy about the German part
01[11] <java> all the effects would be the byproduct of very low nitrates
01[11] <java> from aggressive denitrification
01[11] <java> so just from this conversation alone
01[11] <java> we can see how the n-cycle is an important consideration AFTER a tank is "cycled"
[11] <olaf> because of the bacteria producing sugar for the cells also allowing the cell to allow more to be absorbed>?
[11] <olaf> EQUALLY MORE GROWTH AND COLOR?
[11] <olaf> OOPS
01[11] <java> rephrase the question?
01[11] <java> my impression is that the coloration is just from happy corals living with very low nitrates
01[11] <java> very very low
[11] <olaf> with the certain bacteria that would be produced would it benefit the corals
01[11] <java> yes, by reducing nitrate
01[11] <java> on the natural reef, nitrates are undetectable
01[11] <java> and easy to see why, what with the biggest DSB ever made and all that live rock lol
01[12] <java> corals have adapted evolutionarily
[12] <walla2butterfly> ( relative to the amount of saltwater)\
01[12] <java> to this environment of zero nitrates
01[12] <java> so anything that duplicates it in our closed system approached natural conditions
01[12] <java> approaches
01[12] <java> and makes corals happy
01[12] <java> conversely
01[12] <java> if something "unnatural" is manifested
01[12] <java> like detectable nitrates
01[12] <java> corals don't like that so much
01[12] <java> but it's not like they just croak at the slightest sign of nitrates
01[12] <java> it's a gradual continuum
01[12] <java> many reef tanks have some detectable nitrates
01[12] <java> and the corals live
01[12] <java> but almost universally, reduction of these nitrates leads to improved health
01[12] <java> and growth
01[12] <java> and color
01[12] <java> now, i'd like to get to an important concept about denitrification and oxygen largely absent in hobby literature
01[12] <java> the prevailing notion is that large, solid anaerobic areas are required for denitrification
01[12] <java> hence deep sandbeds (DSBs)
01[12] <java> Jaubert plenums
01[12] <java> nitrate reactors
01[12] <java> many, many technical strategies employed to generate large anaerobic zones
01[12] <java> but if we revisit something in our first week's reading on slide 6
[12] <walla2butterfly> ( environment)
01[12] <java> one can see that bacteria aren't just "aerobic" or "anaerobic"
01[12] <java> there are some that are both
01[12] <java> the presumption that one needs a large solid anaerobic environment to accomplish denitrification
01[12] <java> is rooted in the notion that oxygen is toxic to anaerobic bacteria
01[12] <java> so the idea was that stable anaerobic areas need to be maintained to culture the anaerobes necessary for denitrification
01[12] <java> otherwise, they'll jsut die
01[12] <java> and you won't get denitrifiaction
01[12] <java> and it will be hard to reestablish
01[12] <java> HOWEVER
01[12] <java> there is a category of bacteria who are ok with denitrifying under aerobic conditions, AND don't mind the presence of oxygen
01[12] <java> they're called "facultative anaerobes"
01[12] <java> Pseudomonas stutzeri is a common strain
01[12] <java> it's used in wastewater management as a pure culture
01[12] <java> but notably
01[12] <java> Pseudomonads, as a genus, are the most abundant environmental genus
01[12] <java> Pseudomonas is a common inhabitant of lakes, stream, ocean sediments, etc.
01[12] <java> and a key player in the environment
01[12] <java> and likely present in most naturally-seeded aquaria
01[12] <java> because of these facts
01[12] <java> it is likely that denitrification is a common feature in all aquaria to some degree
01[12] <java> whether there is a specialized apparatus in place to support it or not
01[12] <java> so, this brings us back to a question John had last week
01[12] <java> asking about a sulfer reactor
01[12] <java> sulfur
01[12] <java> many times people initially setup a tank with some form of "extra" denitrification
01[12] <java> capacity
01[12] <java> because it is presumed that nitrates will be a problem
01[12] <java> but really, many times with a properly stocked, i.e. not overloaded tank
01[12] <java> it jsut isn't
01[12] <java> even though no special steps are taken to reduce it
01[12] <java> that is because denitrification to some degree is unavoidable as long as there's live rock, and live sand
01[12] <java> are there any question so far?
01[12] <java> questions
[12] <olaf> nope
01[12] <java> in the context of our hobby, interesting, yes?
[12] <James> very interesting
[12] <mchia> So if the tank is stocked properly, there is no need for denitrifying equipment?
[12] <mchia> DSB, sulfur, etc.
01[12] <java> many times, no
01[12] <java> but it depends on ones needs
01[12] <java> because feeding also plays a role
01[12] <java> some people just LIKE to feed frequently, either fish or coral
01[12] <java> to drive growth
01[12] <java> in this case the scraps may be hard to manage
[12] <olaf> I have one client that over-feeds OMG! "But the fish are always hungry" I told him that he has trained his fish
01[12] <java> exactly
01[12] <java> in cases like that, it may be necessary
01[12] <java> to set somemthing up to deal with the extra waste
01[12] <java> but if you count feeding as part of your "setup"
[12] <olaf> after telling him for months to stop and him watching his corals and anemones die off he finally stopped
01[12] <java> in terms of "bioload", nutrient import, etc
01[12] <java> then that "setup" isn't balanced
[12] <olaf> I always setup for this case but he was extreme!
[12] <James> Jason, do you feel that there is an advatage in naturally seeding an aquarium vs using bottled products?
01[12] <java> that's the approach i prefer
[12] <olaf> I finally got it under control and balanced back out by added extra bacteria
01[12] <java> i'll tell you why
01[12] <java> (but in olaf's case, remidiation is understandable and a valid approach in my opinion)
01[12] <java> remediation
01[12] <java> since the n-cycle steps feed into one another
01[12] <java> and really, the pool of decaying matter feeding the n-cycle is usually in excess, and limited by the rate of aerobic, nitrifying bacteria
01[12] <java> breaking it down
01[12] <java> AND
01[12] <java> the typical bottled product is aerobic denitrifiers
01[12] <java> when you add all these bacteria which suddenly find themselves gorged with nutrients
01[12] <java> and grow
01[12] <java> grow meaning multiply
01[12] <java> the anaerobic side of the n-cycle
01[12] <java> might not be able to accomodate all the nitrate that's produced
01[12] <java> because as olaf pointed out, the bottled part of that step of the cycle isn't common or easy to dose
01[12] <java> so without somehow increasing the numbers or activity of denitrifiers
01[12] <java> one MIGHT get a logjam of nitrates
01[12] <java> empirically, this might not always happen
01[12] <java> but theoretically it can
[12] <Bob> Bio-waste being a large variable. How do you know when enough food is present, with the occupants always growing?
01[12] <java> usually if not enough food is present there's a slow equilibration to levels where everything balances out
01[12] <java> problems occur when things happen too quickly
01[12] <java> that can be both adding too much nutrient, as in overfeeding or a death like a fish or snail
01[12] <java> or taking away nutrient
[12] <walla2butterfly> ( or taking away nutrient ?)
01[12] <java> like "cleaning" the sandbed, or if detritus has accumulated and the tank has balanced to it, a vacuuming
01[12] <java> or suddenly adding a skimmer and aggressively skimming
01[12] <java> these things might lead to a bacterial die-off, up[setting the balance
01[12] <java> slow changes!
01[12] <java> even cleaning!
01[12] <java> i've had stuff accumulate behind live rock in pockets of sand, not really known it was there, but all levels still zero
01[12] <java> ammonia, nitrite, nitrate
01[12] <java> that is
01[12] <java> it accumulated slowly, breaks down slowly
[12] <olaf> I did find that adding the bacteria did damage to the balance. Hair algae died off, Hector's goby got thin.
01[12] <java> losing the hair algae was good though!
[12] <olaf> yes
01[12] <java> shall we take 10 minutes for a break?
[12] <olaf> but it was feeding the tangs and gobies and a home for other mico-inverts
[12] <walla2butterfly> okay
[12] <olaf> k
01[12] <java> OH! interesting about the algae
[12] <mchia> OK
[12] <Bob> I assume that changing lighting times & amounts would have the same effect?
01[12] <java> yes
01[12] <java> big changes at least
01[12] <java> shortening an hour at a time to get to a target photoperiod is usually ok
[12] <walla2butterfly> well my tank is in trouble then,
01[12] <java> uhoh
[12] <walla2butterfly> I have my lights on the side of the tank trying to find a new cover for the bulbs
01[12] <java> jsut changed the angle?
[12] <Bob> I had a mixture of PC's & MH and due to a increase of hair algae I stopped the MH. Big mistake right?
[12] <walla2butterfly> no is literally on one side
01[12] <java> well...
01[12] <java> do you have corals?
[12] <Bob> No
01[12] <java> probably ok for losing the algae
[12] <walla2butterfly> thinking about buying some plexiglass and rubberbanding it on
01[12] <java> but if the algae dies off rapidly you might see a spike in nitrates if you have an established tank
[12] <walla2butterfly> then came home from work yesterday to find one of my rocks slipped (?) and was on top of my oyster but he seems to be okay
01[12] <java> if it's new, maybe even ammonia
01[12] <java> ok, i'll be back in 10!!
[12] <olaf> PC's and MH?
[12] <walla2butterfly> bye
[12] <olaf> i am back from 10 oops
[12] <walla2butterfly> so I am confussed
[12] <olaf> about?
[12] <Bob> Power compacts and metal halides
[12] <olaf> o duh
[12] <walla2butterfly> I have only heard of cyanobacteria as being bad, but in the reading it doenst sound like such a bad thing
[12] <olaf> in check it is ok
[12] <mchia> It's bad when there's too much.
[12] <walla2butterfly> so is it only if it takes over as in too much
[12] <olaf> it is when you get a bloom it isn't good and become unsightly
[12] <mchia> I have lots in one tank
[12] <Bob> I think that's the key "in check'
[12] <walla2butterfly> what exactly does it look like the reading says it comes in many colors
[12] <walla2butterfly> I have some black stuff under some of my rocks, thougth it was sometype of sponge but now wondering
[12] <walla2butterfly> it doesnt have the holes like sponge
[12] <mchia> Mine is red
[12] <Bob> The cyno I had was red and resembled slime.
[12] <olaf> I have picked up clients where their rock is covered in cyanobacteria
[12] <mchia> It looks slimy & translucent
[12] <walla2butterfly> no this is black with kind of grey look but not translucent
[12] <mchia> Freshwater cyano is green & translucent
[12] <olaf> so thin it is like peeling carpet off their rock
[12] <Bob> Another indicator I had was a colection of gas bubbles under it.
[12] <walla2butterfly> no this is thick
[12] <olaf> think
[12] <mchia> The bubbles are when there's light
[12] <walla2butterfly> in the nano reading it mentions "mats" that is what got me thinking
[12] <olaf> Nitrogen is possibly the bubbles
[12] <walla2butterfly> it is more like some bubble gum
[12] <walla2butterfly> stuck there
[12] <olaf> is this FW or SW?
[12] <walla2butterfly> I knew I had some but when I pulled out my LR to clean the tank after a power outage, ( lost some life) I found that there was a lot more
[12] <mchia> Perhaps colonial sea squirts.
[12] <walla2butterfly> mmm
[12] <walla2butterfly> I guess it is okay not growing at any enourmous rate
[12] <Bob> you may have something else. I read about a buildup that occurs between LR & sand
[12] <walla2butterfly> have to look on chuck's site about sea squirts
[12] <olaf> or could be colony sponge, encrusting sponge, etc
[12] <walla2butterfly> looks soft but no holes like I have seen in spounges
[12] <walla2butterfly> but similar
[12] <walla2butterfly> are you guys familiar with this site http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyummy42/index.html
[12] <olaf> There are many types of sponges some are not even listed
[12] <walla2butterfly> watching blue planet, lots of stuff still to learn about
[12] <walla2butterfly> and Id
01[12] <java> hey
01[12] <java> hey
01[12] <java> oops, sorry
[12] <walla2butterfly> (bob) it grows on the underside of the LR but not down next to the sand
01[12] <java> i want to spend a little time on photosynthesis
[12] <olaf> k
[12] <mchia> OK
01[12] <java> although relevant to algae, that's not really my main concern
01[12] <java> more regarding zooxanthellae
01[12] <java> just to make sure everybody understands
01[12] <java> zooxanthellae are photosynthetic dinoflagellates
01[12] <java> which subsist in a symbiotic relationship with coral polyps
01[12] <java> making most corals effectively photosynthetic
01[12] <java> even though they are technically animals
01[12] <java> so, as reviewed in my powerpoint lecture
01[12] <java> photosynthesis is the harvesting of light to assists in the utilization of CO2 for metabolism
01[12] <java> assist
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01[12] <java> there are 3 different components which i will not review in detail
01[12] <java> but again, it is important to note inputs and outputs and a couple key concepts
[12] <mchia> Which slide?
[12] <walla2butterfly> the first article is a powerpoint
01[12] <java> starting at slide 16 - the three components are the light reaction, because light is required
[13] <mchia> OK
01[13] <java> the dark reaction - because light isn't necessaary
01[13] <java> and the electron transport system
01[13] <java> we won't be going over them in detail
01[13] <java> but i will come back to the ETS
01[13] <java> because it is the mnachnism by which photons of light are harvested and their energy shunted into photosynthetic reactions
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01[13] <java> whoa - mechanism
01[13] <java> most notably, the input is CO2 and light
01[13] <java> which makes photosynthesis a logical coupling to the aerobic respiration performed by not only bacteria
01[13] <java> but anything else aerobic as well, including macroorganisms
01[13] <java> photosynthesis is a component of a O2/CO2 "cycle in all aquaria
01[13] <java> photosynthetic orhganisms consume waste, in the form of CO2, of aerrobic animals and bacteria
01[13] <java> and although we won
01[13] <java> 't go
01[13] <java> to super detail regarding chemistry
01[13] <java> this has implication upon pH as well
01[13] <java> considering that pH is a direct function of dissolved CO2
01[13] <java> i mentioned harvesting lilght
01[13] <java> how is this done? (rhetorical)
01[13] <java> all photosynthetic organisms have light harvesting pigments
01[13] <java> which are molecules which become "excited" when exposed to light
01[13] <java> these molecules are physically connected to other molecules
01[13] <java> which pass along the energy from light along a molecular chain
01[13] <java> like dominoes falling
01[13] <java> this is called the electron transport system
01[13] <java> as for the main light harvesting pigments
01[13] <java> the most well known are chlorophylls
01[13] <java> notably, chlorophyll a and b
01[13] <java> these molecules get "excited" by a specific wavelength of light
01[13] <java> so although they work just fine when sunlight hits them
01[13] <java> really it's only a narrow band of wavelengths within the full spectrum of light that truly work, molecularly
01[13] <java> this is why in both aquarium and agricultural lighting, we see certain wavelengths well represented
01[13] <java> actinics usually come in wavelengths of 420nm and 460nm
01[13] <java> which coincidentally
01[13] <java> is the absorption peak for chlorophyll a and b
01[13] <java> those chlorophylls also absorb around 680nm
[13] <walla2butterfly> (nm ?)
01[13] <java> blue (460/420) and red (mid-600)
01[13] <java> nm is the unit used to represent wavelenght, nanometer
[13] <walla2butterfly> (k)
01[13] <java> you can see it used on the labeling of bulbs
01[13] <java> and it represents certain colors of light
[13] <mchia> What's the difference between chlorophyll a & b?
[13] <mchia> Is there an important difference?
01[13] <java> functionally they do the same thing, but they absrob at slightly differnt wavelength
02[13] * Bob ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: )
01[13] <java> so, if chlorophylls only absorb
01[13] <java> at certain wavelengths
01[13] <java> then who cares about wavelengths otehr than those, right?
01[13] <java> one would think that aquarium lights should be narrow band, with specific wavelengths
01[13] <java> so why the "full spectrum"
01[13] <java> why use natural daylight
01[13] <java> or 10K
01[13] <java> well, early in the hobby
01[13] <java> chlorophylls were the only pigments understood to harvest light
01[13] <java> so actinics were developed
01[13] <java> thinking that they were focusing on the specific wavelengths for photosynthesis
01[13] <java> but later it was discovered that there were many other pigments
01[13] <java> called "accessory pigments"
01[13] <java> which absorb llight and pass along the energy to chlorophylls
01[13] <java> it was realized that cholorophylls weren't the only starting point for the ETS, but could also be an intermediate step
01[13] <java> so there are other pigments which absorb light of colors other than the 420/460 blue and mid-600s red
01[13] <java> some are known as carotenoids
01[13] <java> and xanthophylls
01[13] <java> these are relatively recent discovereies
01[13] <java> and puts the idea of narrow-spectrum bulbs as being most useful into question
01[13] <java> even now it isn't uncommon to see actinics and MHs used in combinations which cover very little of the natural spectrum
01[13] <java> and corals seem to adapt just fine, often with very vibrant colors
01[13] <java> what you are seeing is the accumulation of pigments useful to the zooxanthellae under those specific lighting conditions
[13] <walla2butterfly> ( been reading alot about not needing actinics lately, mostly for the eye)
01[13] <java> those pigments which are harvesting the light msot effectively
01[13] <java> ah yes, are actinics NECESSARY
01[13] <java> if one thinks about what corals have evolutionarily adapted to
01[13] <java> i.e., natural sunlight
01[13] <java> then actinics seem odd
01[13] <java> mind you, they certainly don't hurt
01[13] <java> but considering that stony coral growth is greatest at the reef top and within 3-4 meters of the surface
01[13] <java> then most corals have evolved to growing in a full sunlight spectrum
01[13] <java> the spectral "Temperature" of the sun is 6700K
01[13] <java> a lighting spectrum not liked by reefkeepers
01[13] <java> because it's yellow
01[13] <java> and tends to wash out a lot of color from LR and coral
01[13] <java> 10K approaches the natural spectrum, but is crisper white
01[13] <java> but because of what i mentioned about accessory pigments
01[13] <java> and the fact that they absorb light at all sorts of wavelengths
01[13] <java> it has become obvious why corals don't grow very well under pure actinics only
01[13] <java> even though actinics theoretically stimulate chlorophylls directly
01[13] <java> the other accessory pigments contribute a great deal to light harvesting
01[13] <java> and effective photosynthesis
01[13] <java> i could spend a full 3 hours on lighting alone
01[13] <java> but i wanted to briefly touch on this topic because lighting can be such an issue
01[13] <java> and many choices are made based exclusively on aesthetics
01[13] <java> using the assumption that it's all the same, biologically
[13] <walla2butterfly> ( I could listen for a full 3 hrs)
01[13] <java> "14K or 20K? pick the one that looks best, that you like the most" for example
01[13] <java>
[13] <olaf> why would you go that high?
01[13] <java> some people do, they jsut like the fact that it makes their corals "glow"
[13] <olaf> ah
[13] <walla2butterfly> the bigger the better mentallity)
01[13] <java> that too - on my tank i like 1 dual daylight, one dual actinic
01[13] <java> i feel like it covers a lot, spectrally
01[13] <java> the colors are a little yellower than most prefer
01[13] <java> but again, i want to make sure the photosynthetic apparatus
01[13] <java> feeding my corals, gets well stimulated
01[13] <java> 14K is really popular
[13] <olaf> I try to get the 50/50 67K/420nm 10K/460nm
01[13] <java> but it hass such a narrow emission spectrum
01[13] <java> we think a lot alike olaf!
01[13] <java> mine is a sunpaq 6700k?10K
01[13] <java> and dual actinic 420/460
[13] <olaf> I have been check out the PFO Solaris
[13] <olaf> all LED programable
01[13] <java> those are nice
01[13] <java> $$ too
[13] <olaf> $$ though
[13] <olaf> lol
01[13] <java> one thing about led
01[13] <java> this is off the cuff, too
01[13] <java> because i'm not sure how well i remember the spectrum
01[13] <java> but when i saw an emission spectrograph of an led system
01[13] <java> there were some notable deficienceies...
01[13] <java> it was a very broad, plataeu
01[13] <java> but i think it dropped off way before mid-600, which is a large part of the photosynthetic absorption peak
01[13] <java> it wasn't solaris though
[13] <olaf> "they say" that they have 6700 & 10000 but I would like to actually see the Spectrograph
01[13] <java> it was another manufacturer looking to break into the market
01[13] <java> and i saw his spectrograph, and it bothered me
[13] <olaf> Drs Foster & Smith and as small 4 bulb led lighting system
01[13] <java> becasue it was tuned around "crisp white" "blue", for aesthetics
01[13] <java> but was missing the mid-600s red
01[13] <java> i don't think that's good
[13] <mchia> Is the non - aquarium LED's about the same as the aquarium LED's?
[13] <olaf> that you can chain a couple together
01[13] <java> I GUESS HOMEMADE WOULD BE DIFFERENT
01[13] <java> oops, sorry, yellinglol
[13] <olaf> big difference
01[13] <java> yeah, you could defintiely tuent he spectrum you want
[13] <olaf> unless you are willing to spend the time and $$ to find the bulbs
01[13] <java> tune the
01[13] <java> but this commercial version spectrum (I CAN'T REMEMBER THE BRAND!! ARG) didn't look like it was geared towards photosynthesis
[13] <olaf> then you would have to get something to bring down the electrical current
01[13] <java> and photosynthesis is the whole point!
01[13] <java> unless it's jsut a FOWLR
01[13] <java> but even then, the coraline has to make a living!
[13] <walla2butterfly>
01[13] <java> so, that's why it's important to have a sense of the photosynthtic side of things
01[13] <java> make you look at lighting selection a little differently
01[13] <java> they're not just for looks
01[13] <java> think about the natural sun
01[13] <java> where your inhabitants come from
01[13] <java> what they've evolved to grow from
01[13] <java> the molecular side too
01[13] <java> realize that although you can enhance certain wavelengths for aesthetics
01[13] <java> more actinic if you really like it is ok
01[13] <java> but don't shortchnge the rest of the spectrum
01[13] <java> don't let the lighting be completely deficient in a certain area
01[13] <java> it IS possible to have a very bright "blue" actinic effect overall
01[13] <java> if that's what you like
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01[13] <java> but just make sure that it's ON TOP OF some light energy that representative of the natural spectrum
[13] <hello> hello all
01[13] <java> hi
[13] <olaf> I usually use the actinic as a morning and evening light but keeping it on all day then having the 67K and 10K come on an hour after. This is when I don't do the 50/50's
01[13] <java> ah, i see
01[13] <java> that makes sense
[13] <walla2butterfly> actinics for when company comes over LOL
01[13] <java> haha
01[13] <java> that's fine too
01[13] <java> and i mean really
[13] <olaf> for the larger verts it is a more pleasant way of waking up and putting the fish to rest "sleep"
01[13] <java> corals are very adaptable
01[13] <java> there are people who keep exclusively 20K over their SPS
01[13] <java> a VERY narrow representation
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01[13] <java> and the corals adapt
01[13] <java> but it's not the natural state of things for them
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[13] <walla2butterfly> looks like hello is having problems there
01[13] <java> hello/goodbye!
[13] <olaf> by the way I took your Power Point and made a PDF for those who want to have a printable version (10 pages)
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[13] <walla2butterfly> I just printed the power point
[13] <hello> Hi this is Fishie, for some reason it has me listed a hello
01[13] <java> oh, that's fine. and thanks
01[13] <java> hi fishie
[13] <walla2butterfly> I tried to find a dawn simulator a few years ago but nothing
01[13] <java> hey fishie - did you know chat wass rescheduled today?
[13] <hello> I've got a light stick that gives me sunrise, daytime and moonlight
[13] <olaf> this is one reason that the Solaris is exsiting
[13] <hello> It's made my Profilux and is an auxillaryto my controller.
[13] <olaf> you can program day cycles and lunar cycles
[13] <hello> It is really really cool. At 7:00 am I get a RED sunrise and it fades until about 10:00 when it becomes whiet
[13] <hello> Then in the evening it goes from red sunsut to blue moonlight
[13] <hello> All controlled by the controller. GREAT!
[13] <walla2butterfly> cool of read about the lunar but not heard of the sun
01[13] <java> i'd like to see a MH that moves as if the sun is tracking across the sky
[13] <hello> recheduled to when?
01[13] <java> no permanent shadow spots
01[13] <java> or fewer,a t leasst
[13] <olaf> they have this also
01[13] <java> 11AM to 2PM, we're wrapping up
[13] <mchia> Actually at sunset its blueish underwater, not red.
[13] <olaf> it is a small motor that is used with HQI's
[13] <olaf> hanging HQI's
[13] <hello> oh, well, I'll read it afterwards.
01[13] <java> ah, i saw one but i though it wass homemade
[13] <hello> There is a light bar I've seen that moves your MH light back and forth
[13] <hello> It's totally controllable
[13] <olaf> Liveaquaria's Diver's Den uses them so they can cover more area with less light
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[13] <olaf> they have them swinging the HQI's over the corals back and forth
[13] <olaf> I think it would have to be slowed down if it was used as a sun path
01[13] <java> swinging? like fast?
[13] <olaf> no
01[13] <java> ok, lol, that would drive me nuts to works somewhere where the lights are swinging like crazy
[13] <olaf> like a couple inches per minute
01[13] <java> very interesting
[13] <olaf> light track
01[13] <java> i got my M. spumosa from Diver's Den
01[13] <java> i love that site
01[13] <java> i love that you can pick the specimen that you want
01[14] <java> and that they're full colonies, not frags
[14] <mchia> It's supposed to move slowly
[14] <mchia> http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/gene ... agesid=377
[14] <olaf> http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... atid=18485 Current LED
[14] <olaf> I went to that last year
[14] <olaf> it was really cool
[14] <olaf> I will e going again tis year
01[14] <java> i hear it's an amazing facility
[14] <olaf> be
[14] <olaf> yep
01[14] <java> too far for me
[14] <olaf> Gualala Robotics Light Rail 3.5
01[14] <java> i wish i lived close to premium aquatics too, so i could pick up LR in a water bucket
[14] <olaf> it was a 6.5 hour drive for me
01[14] <java> NOT BAD
01[14] <java> i'd do it
[14] <olaf> just around the lake
[14] <olaf> Lake Michigan
01[14] <java> lol, "just"
[14] <olaf> The closest LFS is 50+ miles away
01[14] <java> ouch, but i really don't like most LFS in my area so i guess it's not too different
01[14] <java> order corals onlilne
01[14] <java> DIVERS DEN!!
[14] <olaf> I order everything online
[14] <olaf> I would just like to be able to hand pick everything by sight
[14] <olaf> I use them a lot
01[14] <java> it's a lot cheaper and better quality than i can get in person
01[14] <java> even shipped dry, overnight, the live rock is 10x better and half the price
01[14] <java> than any LFS in my area, 50+ miles
01[14] <java> and i'm not exactly out in the boonies
01[14] <java> i'm near NYC
[14] <olaf> I am across the lake from Chicago
[14] <walla2butterfly> my LFS is getting out of the salt buisness, so i guess I will be strictly on line soon
[14] <olaf> I went to grade school in Orange County
01[14] <java> really? whart town?
01[14] <java> what
[14] <olaf> NYMA
[14] <olaf> cornwall on huson
[14] <walla2butterfly> so I gather class is over?
01[14] <java> yeah
01[14] <java> any questions?
[14] <olaf> tangents
[14] <olaf> yes
[14] <walla2butterfly> bye everyone bueatiful day want to get out in it
01[14] <java> k, thanks for coming!
[14] <olaf> what about lithophils that take care of PO4
01[14] <java> slow growers
[14] <walla2butterfly>
01[14] <java> and not a major metabolic pathway
[14] <walla2butterfly> Hurry and get the new reading on
or give us a hint about what it is this week01[14] <java> phosphates are more absorbed by plants than by bacteria
[14] <olaf> so there is no commercial value
[14] <olaf> I agree
01[14] <java> oh - next reading will be more ecology based, to try and put things into spatial perrspective
[14] <walla2butterfly>
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[14] <olaf> some of my aquariums can keep plants (tangs eating them to nothing
[14] <mchia> Bye everyone!
01[14] <java> i always keep some macroalgae to outcompete nuisance algae
01[14] <java> BYE! thanks for coming and participating
01[14] <java> plus it can be pretty and kind of exotic
[14] <olaf> I do too but fish are depleating my stock
01[14] <java> my tank is too small for fish (in my opinion)
01[14] <java> i jsut like the coral and macroalgae
[14] <olaf> I have one 6-g nano like that planted with DSB
[14] <olaf> but most of the tanks are 125+g
01[14] <java> how deep the sb?
[14] <olaf> with max load
[14] <olaf> 3" just measured it
01[14] <java> do you have any pics of your tanks online anywhere? they sound pretty wild
[14] <olaf> never done a water change in 4 years
01[14] <java> NICE
01[14] <java> lol
[14] <olaf> actually I don't even owna camera
01[14] <java> TABOO!
[14] <olaf> lol
[14] <olaf> water quality is perfect
01[14] <java> water change police! woop woop!
01[14] <java> lol
01[14] <java> i belive it
[14] <olaf> I do a test once in a while but it is always the same
01[14] <java> i had a 0.8 gallon pico, no wc in almost a year, it was gorgeous
[14] <olaf> I will even place pellet food in their to make a change
[14] <olaf> but no effect
01[14] <java> happy bacteria
[14] <olaf> I also have amphipods, copopods
[14] <olaf> limpets
[14] <olaf> bristle worms
01[14] <java> it's that natural approach, soft-cycle with good quality live rock
01[14] <java> DIVERSITY
[14] <olaf> I started with Cell Pore then I took live sand and buried it
[14] <olaf> then added the inverts then the plants
01[14] <java> you keep stony corals at all?
[14] <olaf> I haven't changed the filter either
[14] <olaf> only what has come on the rock
01[14] <java> so no dosing calcium or carbonate
[14] <olaf> back sun polyps
[14] <olaf> once in a while
[14] <olaf> my pH and Calcium is good
01[14] <java> interesting... borrow a camera - post some pics!
[14] <olaf> I haven't check hardness
01[14] <java> well, it was a good class today i think
01[14] <java> good discussions
01[14] <java> i could do this all day
01[14] <java> but i gotta run
[14] <olaf> in my 24 gallon nano I put a Hairy Sea Hare in yesterday
[14] <olaf> rotifers
[14] <olaf> and copopods
[14] <olaf> k
01[14] <java> i'll post the chat in a little while
[14] <olaf> do you want the PDF?
[14] <olaf> I can send it
01[14] <java> and the new reading will go up monday
[14] <olaf> k
01[14] <java> sure, i'll take a copy
[14] <olaf> how do I attach it
[14] <olaf> forum?
01[14] <java> yeah, that'll do
01[14] <java> thanks, i appreciate that
[14] <olaf> k
[14] <olaf> have a good day everyone
[14] <olaf> laters
01[14] <java> see you guys on the forumand/or next week!
01[14] <java> thanks, you too
02[14] * olaf ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: )
[14] <James> thanks, Jason
[14] <James> bye all
