High Ca & Mg, VERY low pH!

[JT101]

Hello All,

I have been traveling a LOT on a new job and I've had a tough time keeping on top of proper "husbandry" so I think I overdosed my 46g bowfront

All of my corals look fantastic EXCEPT two brain corals I got within the last few months. A brown lobo was happy the minute I got it on 12/10. I got a red/green brain about 3 weeks ago. THIS one took a day or so to puff up but eventually it looked great too. The brown one was ALWAYS doing better (puffed up like a grapefruit), but last week (Wednesday 2/1 to be exact) they both started to look a little deflated. The red one is "OK, but the brown one shrank quite a bit and as of yesterday 2/8 it is now showing a little bit of skeleton on one edge

I have an AquaController and I recalibrated the temp, pH and ORP probes last month. The pH in my tank has always been a little low (7.8-7.9) but last week it dropped to about 7.7.

I finally made some time to do a test with my Salifert kits which are dated "04/2013" and I came across some shocking numbers:

Ca: "off the charts". The pinkish solution never turned blue until I added more than the 1mL of solution. It is probably about 700ppm.

Mg: "off the charts". I didn't try to "force" the solution to change from pink to blue or clear but it has to be well over 1500ppm

pH: LOW!!! I got 7.7. I was hoping that my pH probe was off cal (even though I just recalibrated it) but right now it reads 7.77, so it's damned close to the Salifert test.

OK, confession time:

I had been dosing Reef Fusion 2 Part every day for about 1-1/2 months straight. The instructions say 1mL per 6.5 gallons, so with my Aqueon ProFlex 3 sump I carefully calculated 59 gallons which works out to just shy of 10mL for my tank or two capfuls. At the beginning, I was dosing 10mL of each part and I noticed all of my corals seemed more vibrant and full, so I upped it to 20mL or 4 capfuls per day. Late last month I upped it to 6 capfuls per day and stayed with that dosage until last week. The instructions ALSO say NOT to exceed 4mL per day per 6.5g or 40mL per day for 65 gal, so I was adding 30mL (6 capfuls/5mL each) for 59 gal. I was away again and my wife dosed a little less because I told her I thought I was overdoing it and got a little gunshy even though nothing looked bad. Mid-week is when the brains started to show stress.

I haven't added anything since this past Friday because I ran out, and I did a 12 gallon WC on Saturday AND another one on Sunday, so even if the water was oversaturated with Ca & Mg I would have expected that changing 24 gallons over 2 days would have diluted it a lot.

Unfortunately, I do NOT have an alkalinity kit but am going to buy one. I read that if your pH is low then most likely your alk is low too. My concern here is: How do I balance all these factors out? Do more WC's and then start from scratch? How do I raise my pH without raising my Ca & Mg?

Thanks
John

 

[mbg75]

Start doing water changes to get the numbers back in line.

Don't dose unless you test.

Most likely your Alk will be low if calcium is thru the roof.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[Boomer]

As mbg is pointing out do not follow so called instructions unless you test after each dosage or every other dosage so you know where you are at. When calcium is to high it will start to pull down the Alk and when the Alk is to high it will start to pull down the calcium. In almost all cases there is much more calcium proportionally that alk so the alk drops much quicker and the calcium goes up, especially when the tank has a low calcium demand and a high Alk demand.

 

[jamesonwhiskey]

Mag and Calc should be near the 3:1 ratio. You want to target 1350 for Mag and 450 for Calc. Your pH will work itself out provided your Alk is within the "normal 8-12" range. What kind of salt do you use and is your water RO/DI?

A lot of people don't even bother testing their pH as long as everything else is in check. Personally, I have a digital pH monitor which I keep on all the time because a quick change in pH could be an early warning indicator of something else going on...

 

[JT101]

As mbg is pointing out do not follow so called instructions unless you test after each dosage or every other dosage so you know where you are at. When calcium is to high it will start to pull down the Alk and when the Alk is to high it will start to pull down the calcium. In almost all cases there is much more calcium proportionally that alk so the alk drops much quicker and the calcium goes up, especially when the tank has a low calcium demand and a high Alk demand.

Thanks Boomer. How would I be able to determine if my tank has a low calcium/high Alk demand?

 

[JT101]

Mag and Calc should be near the 3:1 ratio. You want to target 1350 for Mag and 450 for Calc. Your pH will work itself out provided your Alk is within the "normal 8-12" range. What kind of salt do you use and is your water RO/DI?

A lot of people don't even bother testing their pH as long as everything else is in check. Personally, I have a digital pH monitor which I keep on all the time because a quick change in pH could be an early warning indicator of something else going on...

Hi Jameson,

I use Instant Ocean Reef Crystals and RO/DI water generated from a 6 stage RO/Di system (sediment/carbon/carbon/DI membrane/resin/resin/resin).

 

[Boomer]

How would I be able to determine if my tank has a low calcium/high Alk demand?


Pretty easy. Each day or ever other day for a week test the Alk and Calcium and write them down. Lets pretend here

Sunday - Saturday

Ca, 435, 432 ( 3) 430 (1), 429 (1), 428 (1), 425 (3), 421 (4) = 3 + 1 + 1+ 1 + 3 + 4 = 13/ 7 = 1.85

So, your tank on the avg is using 1.85 ppm Ca / day and is how much to add each day. Being so low you could just sup it once a week 1.85 x 7 = ~ 13. So, you would sup it to increase the Ca 13 ppm every week, which should bring it back to you 435 ppm. And test it once week after this to see how close you are to that 435 and just adjust. As time goes by you will pretty much know how much Ca sup to add with little testing and go to 1 / month for testing. But if a tank is dropping 5 ppm /day that is allot and at the end of the week you are adding 35 ppm and it needs to be sup more often like every other day or every day. And it is the same for Alk.

So, how does equate to low or high ? If for example that demand was on the avg 5 ppm / day that is a high demand and if it came out to 1 ppm /day that is a very low demand. The Alk demand is always higher than the Ca demand, as the Alk is used up in other reactions like to help buffer the water/pH and neutralize acids. There is a way to look at these too. For ever drop in Ca of 20 ppm there is a drop in Alk of 2.8 dKH. If that drop is higher than 2.8 it is for those other demands, i.e., acids, buffer pH etc. If that drop was say 2.9 dKH with a drop in Ca of 20 ppm that is very little and expected. However, if it is on order of say 5 dKH for 20 ppm Ca that is allot and you have a very high Alk demand and something is wrong in your tank, like over feeding, poor circulation, dirty tank, etc. I will add that each tank is different.

 

[JT101]

How would I be able to determine if my tank has a low calcium/high Alk demand?


Pretty easy. Each day or ever other day for a week test the Alk and Calcium and write them down. Lets pretend here

Sunday - Saturday

Ca, 435, 432 ( 3) 430 (1), 429 (1), 428 (1), 425 (3), 421 (4) = 3 + 1 + 1+ 1 + 3 + 4 = 13/ 7 = 1.85

So, your tank on the avg is using 1.85 ppm Ca / day and is how much to add each day. Being so low you could just sup it once a week 1.85 x 7 = ~ 13. So, you would sup it to increase the Ca 13 ppm every week, which should bring it back to you 435 ppm. And test it once week after this to see how close you are to that 435 and just adjust. As time goes by you will pretty much know how much Ca sup to add with little testing and go to 1 / month for testing. But if a tank is dropping 5 ppm /day that is allot and at the end of the week you are adding 35 ppm and it needs to be sup more often like every other day or every day. And it is the same for Alk.

So, how does equate to low or high ? If for example that demand was on the avg 5 ppm / day that is a high demand and if it came out to 1 ppm /day that is a very low demand. The Alk demand is always higher than the Ca demand, as the Alk is used up in other reactions like to help buffer the water/pH and neutralize acids. There is a way to look at these too. For ever drop in Ca of 20 ppm there is a drop in Alk of 2.8 dKH. If that drop is higher than 2.8 it is for those other demands, i.e., acids, buffer pH etc. If that drop was say 2.9 dKH with a drop in Ca of 20 ppm that is very little and expected. However, if it is on order of say 5 dKH for 20 ppm Ca that is allot and you have a very high Alk demand and something is wrong in your tank, like over feeding, poor circulation, dirty tank, etc. I will add that each tank is different.

Boomer,

Thanks so much for the detailed response. I JUST came home from Tropical Island Aquarium in Deer Park where I picked up my Salifert Alk kit. I'm about to check alkalinity, pH, Mg and Ca. I made a simple spreadsheet to keep track of everything, I'll post my results later.

Thanks
John

 

[Boomer]

Ok, ;-)

 

[JT101]

OK, here's what I did. I actually found a bottle of Reef Fusion Part 2 and added some of that today, then waited about an hour, and took readings - here's what I got:

Ca: still >500 ("off the charts")
Mg: still >1500 ("off the charts")
pH (as per Salifert kit): 8.0
pH (as per my AquaController): 8.03
KH: 7.0 dKH
Alk: 2.50 meq/L

So, the addition of the Part 2 ("raises carbonate and alkalinity") actually did what it is supposed to do - the pH increased a little (I don't know what the alk was before).

 

[mbg75]

A water change should help bring the cal a little lower.

Reef crystals tends to run high on mag.

Red sea coral pro salt mixes with an Alk of 12dkh. Might help balance out your system.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[JT101]

OK, I'm a little confused...

I understand that pH and Alk are inter-related, so if I raise my pH, it's a good bet to say that my Alk is going to go up as well. Conversely, I would say the same is true.

Yesterday I added some Alk from my BRS "Total Package" Ca/Mg/Alk kit I mixed up (forgot to say earlier that I ordered this last week and just got it late Friday night). Kit says add 17.9mL based upon my calculated water volume and desired Alk "target". I add it. Within a few minutes, pH goes up from about 7.85 to 8.05. Didn't have time to check Alk but I assumed it went up also.

About an hour later pH is back down to 7.90. Why did this happen? Do I need to add even MORE Alk to keep it up? If not, then what else could be at play here. I mean, the pH is heading in the right direction, and even thought it dropped it's closer to the ideal 8.2-8.3 I see all the time, so why would it drop so soon afterwards?

 

[jamesonwhiskey]

Did you happen measure before and then after your lights were off for the night? When your display tank lights go out your pH will start to drop. My pH swings about .2 overnight, or about .02 per hour, even with my sump light on nights only it's just not strong enough.

 

[JT101]

Did you happen measure before and then after your lights were off for the night? When your display tank lights go out your pH will start to drop. My pH swings about .2 overnight, or about .02 per hour, even with my sump light on nights only it's just not strong enough.

No. I measured all these readings late in the afternoon with the lights still on.

 

[Boomer]

I understand that pH and Alk are inter-related, so if I raise my pH, it's a good bet to say that my Alk is going to go up as well. Conversely, I would say the same is true.

Yes. Any carbonate buffer will raise them both. How much the raise of either is dependent on the ratio and amount of the 2 carbonate buffers used in Alk sup's.

I add it. Within a few minutes, pH goes up from about 7.85 to 8.05. Didn't have time to check Alk but I assumed it went up also.

Yup, see above again

About an hour later pH is back down to 7.90. Why did this happen? Do I need to add even MORE Alk to keep it up? If not, then what else could be at play here. I mean, the pH is heading in the right direction, and even thought it dropped it's closer to the ideal 8.2-8.3 I see all the time, so why would it drop so soon afterwards?

When these buffers are added they generate a little CO2 to a fair amount of CO2. The production of this CO2 or lack of production will make the pH go or down x amount initially depending again on the buffers. CO2 lowers pH but once it leaves the system the pH goes back up to a equilibrium value dependent on tank and room air parameters, with a increase Alk and little to a fair amount of pH increase, again depending on the buffers in the Alk sup and other tank issues.

You never add buffers to increase the pH. Buffer or Alk sups/ are for mostly increasing the Alk not pH. If one continues to add buffers to increase the pH the Alk will end up going through the roof. Low pH is 99 % of time to much CO2 generation in the tank or entering the tank from the room air. And 90 %, more or less, is from the room air having to much CO2. It is easy to watch and prove simply by opening up a window and up goes the pH after a few hrs.. In many houses that CO2 builds up lowering the tank pH and all the Alk sup in the world can not fix it. Another proof is to a take a small bucket out side and aerate the carp out of it for at least 8 hrs and you will see a rise in pH. But lets look at this 3rd way. Your house and your tank are th same as a glass of water, with a pH probe in it or a pH indicator. Now, get a straw and blow in the water with it, the pH will drop quickly, as you are blowing CO2 into the glass. The same is going on in your house. The tank is the glass and the room air is like you blowing into that glass of water. Rather than me rambling on try to read through this.

Low pH Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php

 

[JT101]

Thanks Boomer. I do recall reading that low pH can be caused by excessive CO2.
I considered putting a small air pump out the window on the windowsill of the rear porch and running an airstone in the sump...but I worry about chilling my tank in the winter. Has anybody ever tried this? Sounds like a great way to raise pH!

 

[JT101]

Well, it seems that I am on the right track !! Some things are still outta whack, but I see some readings are heading in the right direction.

I checked my parameters last night with the lights STILL ON and here's what I got.

Ca: Still >1500 (haven't had the time to do a water change yet )
Mg: Still >1500 (see Ca readings)
pH: 8.30!!!
dkh: 8.0

As I mentioned the other day I started dosing the Alk solution from BRS and NOTHING ELSE. Tonight come hell or high water I will do a WC and take readings about an hour later.

 

[henrystyle]

Crack a window open. Fresh air does wonders for your tanks ph..
Stop with the ph buffers. Only a temp fix.
The weathers getting warmer..

 

[Boomer]

JT

I just do not buy those Ca++ and Mg++ readings, especially that Ca++ @ 1500. Try another test kit or have a friend or LS test it for you or test a fresh batch of salt to see what it reads

I considered putting a small air pump out the window on the windowsill of the rear porch and running an airstone in the sump.

Many do this but run that air to the skimmer. As Henry pointed out crackling a window also works.

 

[JT101]

JT

I just do not buy those Ca++ and Mg++ readings, especially that Ca++ @ 1500. Try another test kit or have a friend or LS test it for you or test a fresh batch of salt to see what it reads

I think you may be on to something there. I made a fresh 10 gallon batch of water last night. Aerated it, circulated it and heated it to 80F (to match my tank). SG is 1.026 - matching my tank exactly. Here is what my readings are for that batch:

pH: 8.1-8.2 (sort of in between on the Salifert color chart). Seems OK.
Ca: >500!
Mg: >1500!

No WONDER my tank water reads so high every time I do a WC - I'm "supercharging" it! Of course, this only makes sense if these readings are real. These are SALIFERT kits I am using here, they are good kits. They are not due to expire for between 2014 and 2016 (depending on which kit I am looking at), so they're not old. What are the odds of having two bogus kits???


I considered putting a small air pump out the window on the windowsill of the rear porch and running an airstone in the sump.

Many do this but run that air to the skimmer. As Henry pointed out crackling a window also works.

I thought about the cracking open the window thing, but how do you do that in New York when it's 22F outside