Driveway Heat and Alk Problem

[rkaragozler]

I have been using Driveway Heat for over 2 years now, without any problems to control my calcium levels. Well I ran out of my old bottles and purchased new ones at a local gas station. I used 1- 9.5 Lb jug and noticed that my alk readings in my tank had dropped, but calcium levels were stable. My normal alk level is 9.0dkh, and after using the new jug it had dropped to 4.7dkh. I did not notice any change in my coral what so ever, and I was puzzled as was some of my other friends.
I had 3 other people test my water using different test kits and they were all very close to my readings. After doing some research and talking to a very famous vendor, I found out that the new jugs contain Calcium Bromide (CaBr2). Well it turns out that when they added this chemical to their mixture, it would give us false readings for Alk levels.
Here are the msds sheets from the Product.

PRESTONE DRIVEWAY HEAT MSDSP332
11-01-1999
CALCIUM CHLORIDE 10042-52-4 >90.0%-<100.0%
NON-HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTS 1%
WATER 7732-18-5
SODIUM CHLORIDE 7647-40-7
POTASSIUM CHLORIDE 74447-40-7
STRONTIUM CHLORIDE 10476-85-4


PRESTONE DRIVEWAY HEAT MSDS324
1-10-2007
CALCIUM CHLORIDE 10043-52-4 >90.0%-<92.0%
WATER 7732-18-5 >4.0%-<6.0%
POTASSIUM CHLORIDE 7447-40-7 >2.0%-<3.0%
SODIUM CHLORIDE 7647-14-5 >1.0%-<2.0%


PRESTONE DRIVEWAY HEAT MSDS 48005
7-14-2009
CALCIUM CHLORIDE 10043-52-4 >90.0%-<92.0%
POTASSIUM CHLORIDE 7447-40-7 >2.0%-<3.0%
WATER 7732-18-5 >4.0%-<6.0%
SODIUM CHLORIDE 7647-14-5 >1.0%-<2.0%
CALCIUM BROMIDE(CaBr2) 7789-41-5 <1.0%

Has any one else noticed this problem?
I am now buying the right chemicals to add to my tank, I have to pay more but I think the value of my stock is more important.

 

[greg 45]

Baking soda will raise alk

 

[Nottick]

Please try and read. I know there are some big words.

The alk is a false reading due to the additional chemicals in the driveway heat.

 

[Nottick]

Maybe this should be sent to Randy Holmes Farley since this is his calculations I think. Maybe he can further research this and solidify any information.

 

[d5332]

Big words?

If the opening post had big words then someone should pray for you.

The person that replied flew through the thread, as it happens often on the internet, more often than not it is accessed to kill time or should I say d a w d l e

Baking soda will raise alk

 

[Nottick]

Everyone's got something to say. Add to the convo or don't add at all. Tired of these MR J/O's

 

[Boomer]

First, all of you here are out of line so knock it off. And all of you are ill informed.



rkaragozler


First, are you using Ozone ? Who was the famous vendor, as they are clueless ? It is not Bromide, what you have in Calcium bromide, but Bromine, that can cause issues with Alk and pH and has nothing to do with false readings. When Bromide gets oxidized by Ozone it converts Bromide to Hypobromous acid ( Bromine Bleach, just like Chlorine Bleach) with some to Bromate. This is a common issue in swimming pool chemistry and why some dispense with the use of bromine, as it drags down pH and Alk. If you look any Alk kit or know the background of Alk chemistry, there is no Bromide Interference.

With that said, Randy and I posted on this long ago on our RC Chem Forum. Preston does not make Calcium bromide, DOW does, they just re-label it. A few years back DOW dispensed with the DOW Process, a modified Salvay Procees for making Calcium chloride. This Procees contained high levels of Bromide, of a few thousand ppm, 1% 10,000 ppm. DOW, would then extract the Calcium bromide and sell as Calcium bromide. This would give Calcium chloride only a few hundred ppm vs 1,000's ppm. We were concerned about this DOW Chemicsl announcement of the high Bromide levels being used for 2-parts. Calculations showed it would not be a issue for most unless you were using lots of it. One substitute found was made by TETRA Chemicals, which is Calcium chloride made from the Limestone Method, which is Bromide free. However solutions of TETRA had a light tan color to them and not clear like DOW.

The pH of a Calcium bromide solution is pretty much neutral, although some may be slight below neutral. We have never heard such a thing in the last few years or so of those using the high Bromide salts causing any Alk issues. Bromide as a free ion has no effect on Alk any more than Chloride do, unless it is converted as I stated above.

I am glad you switched. I never liked the " should be safe" as we do not know much about High Bromide levels in seawater.

PS

Your bag dates fit right in with the DOW time announcement.

More than likely a shift in your mixing amount and or water temp pulled down the Alk due to CaCO3 precip.

Lastly, there is no mention on that data sheet what form of salts the are using. All of those on the list come in different hydrated forms. That means the less water tied up in the crystal lattice you need to add less / mix, as it is more concentrated. This means, the more concentrated it is the more it will pull down the Alk. And you may not see this if you tested for Calcium on a batch test, for if you lose 20 ppm Calcium you will lose 2.8 dKH.

 

[rkaragozler]

Boomer:
Not sure if I can mention Vendor names here, but I will pm you.
I stopped using ozone about 2 years ago, but would like to go back to it.
As far as how much is dosed, I went from 288ml/day to 360ml/day for Calcium (Driveway Heat in 9.5 G/jug),
240ml/day for Alk (cooked Baking Soda), And 1L/week of Mag (Epsom Salt).
I did raise my tank temperature from 76 to 78, across a 1 month time frame last month, I guess this was the problem.
I have been using Randy's formula since I began this hobby. With the exception of about 6 months (I used a Calcium Reactor)
I make my 2 part in 1 gallon batches, and weight it on a digital scale.
I would like to thank you for taking the time to answer my question.

 

[Boomer]

You bet.

Vendors like to make things up to make them look good or blame something else when they are clueless. If there was such a thing as Bromide interfering with a Alk kit / measurement you would see countless articles on it, especially in the swimming pool chemistry world were they also use it.

I see you were on RC with the same post and my old friend Disc replied to you. He gave you a short take which I gave. Disc, is a Ph.D Analytical Research Lab Director

You should have tried mixing a batch adding less mix, letting it sit for a couple of hrs then adding the rest. This was the same issue SeaChem had with their Salinity, which I pointed out to them and they then changed the mixing instructions. Salinity is a very concentrated Anhydrous salt mix.