My idea for a DIY actuated ball valve (for wave making in cl

[jsilver]

Hi everyone... this is my first post in these groups and I hope it gets some replies. It's a long post but please hang on! I'm in the planning stages of a reef tank and am looking into ways to make some current in my future aquarium. I know about surge tanks, those rotating heads you can put on pump returns and a cycling powerheads on and off. I don't like moving parts IN my aquarium, so the best thing I've found is the idea of a closed loop with an actuated 3-way ball valve on a timer. The rest of my idea relies on you already understanding this concept

What I like about that system is that it uses one external pump that's always on (not cycling) and that the water is being pushed from one side of the tank to the other instead of sea swirls, for example, which kind of change the flow direction but don't really make much cross-tank disturbances. The problem with these actuated ball valves is that they're over $300 and they're slightly less than ideal since they have duty cycle of around 25% so the flow of water can only change outlet maybe once every minute. So my DIY idea for a actuated ball valve is as follows:

Buy a Plast-o-matic 3-way manual ball valve (with the 3 hole ball so that the flow of current is never fully restricted). The 1" version has a 45 lb/in rating which is the amount of force necessary to turn the valve. The valve itself probably runs around $60 or $70. Buy a geared AC motor. The model I found is from McMaster/Carr and turns at 3rpm, draws 0.4 amp, puts out 50 lb/in of torque, and costs $33.40. Build some kind of small platform that will mount the valve to the motor so that the motor essentially turns the valve for you. I would have to dremel out the little plastic flanges on the valve so that the valve can turn 360 degrees rather than just 180. The benefits here (other than the total cost of just over $100 instead of over $300 is that this motor is rated for continuous duty so it could be turning the valve all day long. That means that every 10 seconds the water is slowly rerouted from one outlet to another and then the next 10 seconds, it's rerouted back... all gently, all with one motor, and it's continuous, like real ocean current. The $300 actuated valves are so expensive, in part, because they have to have sensors in there that know when the valve has reached it's stop but we don't even want that. I'd rather have the flow go from one outlet to another slowly and constantly than stop for a few minutes. There's also a 1 rpm version of this geared motor, by he way, if you think you'd rather have it take 30 seconds to reroute the flow than just 10 seconds.

So is this doable? Am I forgetting something?
The only thing I can see as being a problem (other than mounting the motor to a small frame with the valve) is that the holes in the ball in the valve might only be oriented so that you get continuous flow between the original 180 degrees of movement and not through the modified full 360. Perhaps I'd have to drill another hole in the ball.

Comments, suggestions? Did this make any sense to anyone!?

 

[ruck'n'reefer]

Dumb Questions:
Does the 3 way valve give you 3 separate outlets? Is there only one outlet open at a time (mostly)?
Does the motor (3rpm) run a continuous cycle, or does the motor stay at each outlet for the 10 seconds?
How much flow can you use (gph)?
Sorry for these q's; but i'm quite interested.

 

[jsilver]

>>Does the 3 way valve give you 3 separate outlets?

No. One inlet, and a "choice" between two outlets.

>>Is there only one outlet open at a time (mostly)?

Not really... while the valve is being turned between one outlet and another, you get a proportional "mixture" of the two outlets so the pump is never pumping into a closed valve.

>>Does the motor (3rpm) run a continuous cycle, or does the motor stay at each outlet for the 10 seconds?

It's continuous, which means the water outlets would have a sinusoidal pattern instead of hanging on each outlet for a set time. In my opinion, this is better...

>>How much flow can you use (gph)?

This is one problem... the valve is only 1" so you're limited somewhat (a 1.5" valve take too much torque to turn). The $300+ version can take 1.5", I think... maybe someone else can contribute a guess as to how much flow you can get through a 1" pipe.

 

[Anonymous]

hi.
See my post on the other xpost.

Cv factor on a 1 inch 3 way valve is 13.0, which is give you ~2000 gpm with a pressure drop of 1 psi.

 

[jsilver]

seven ephors,
Thanks for the flow data, although I'm sure that's gph instead of gpm

right?

Actually that's much more flow than I thought it would be. I might be able to get away using a 3/4" valve and that would put less stress on my motor... may I ask what the conversion formula is (or where I can get a chart) that would give me gph and pressure loss for a given Cv?

Thanks!

 

[Anonymous]

hi.
Thax for pointing out the mistype. It is GPH, not gpm. I don't have the table with me, but you probably will be able to find it on the web... or any hydro book. For the 3/4 inch 3 way ball valve, you will looking at half of the flow rate, about 1000 *GPH* with 1psi loss. BTW, 1psi is ~2 feet of water.

 

[z8askooter]

i see the biggest problem with the idea is that the motor may be to small. i would try to find a motor with a higher torque rating. you are asking the motor to turn at 90% of its maximum capacity. i think you may find that it may not work at all due to the extra force required to break the static friction in the valve to get the thing to rotate initially. if it does work i would expect that it may burn up pretty fast working that hard in a continuous duty situation.

 

[Reefmonster]

Just a question, if I may.... Where exactly would this aparatus sit? Is it located near the sump, on the stand, or above the aquarium? The reason that I ask is because of back siphoning. If the unit sits UNDER the aquarium it would flood during an outage. If it sits above the aquarium, then the flow rates metioned are incorrect due to head distance from the sump. I am interested in finding out what you come up with.

Just a few thoughts to consider.

 

[Anonymous]

hi.
This is going to be in a closed loop, so your concern is not justified.

 

[Anonymous]

hi.
Correction again. Cv of 13 means 13gpm with pressure drop of 1 psi, so the flow rate is about 780 gph (13gpm*60minutes) instead of ~2000 gph as stated above. For flow rate of 2000 gph, there will be a pressure drop of about 2.5psi, or 5 feet of water. My apology.

 

[jsilver]

Yes, as stated, this would be a closed loop, so there are no power-out siphon problems... the concept is well tested... just not with DIY actuators.

z8askooter, good point about the static friction. Perhaps the way around that, as you stated, is a more torquey motor, or using smaller ball valves (that require less torque). Of course, that lowers the flow through-put, but if I built two or three of these and hooked them up to wye connectors on the pump output, I could get around that. And if all the valve motors were plugged into a cheap power strip wave times, I could lower their duty cycle quite a bit and still keep the wave output very random.

 

[kipreefer]

I really didnt look into detail about what you are making. But for a idea i have always had with closed loops i have wondered if you can use outdoor sprinkeler valves. I know i have used one on my pneumatic potato launcher and i was wondering if oyu could get something to have them on a timer that would make them turn on and off.

 

[Anonymous]

hi.
How much flow can you get out of a sprinkler valve?

 

[jsilver]

You could use sprinkler valves except there would be a few concerns:

1) I think they have metal parts in them.
2) They're pretty low quality and not meant to be activated as often as you'd want them to be in a circulation system.
3) Since they're just on and off, if one fails to open or it's hooked up wrong, your pump will be pushing against a wall, not being able to pump water. It could burn out or blow your piping joints out. The benefit of the 3-way valve is that there is always an open outlet for water.

But this is not the final word... just my opinion...

 

[laserted]

I'm willing to bet there's no good data out there (yet...) on this one - the motor itself would probably be ok - perhaps give it a twist to start and break the static friction, although the motor is likely overspec'd anyway (the traditional manufacturer's CYA practice!) my question would be the ball valve - would the nylon break down under 24hour rotation? Of course, at that point, the friction would become less as the nylon wore, and you'd probably get some leakage past the ball itself, but if lucky, none out of the valve packing. Are there valves made to expressly do this?

I love the idea - not having seen a marketed item like this it would be great to get it working!

Cheers,

Ted.

 

[Anonymous]

hi.
I am not familiar with other ball valve, but PlastOMatic has Teflon thrust bearing and seats, and the ball is machined to a mirror finish. It is rated for at least 1 million operation, and the actuator is 50% duty cycle.

So if you turn it once every minute, it will last for about 2 years. In the industry, it is typically turn maybe once or twice per hour, so that is really good. Again, if you need to switch flow direction more often than a dozen time per hour, you will not be using ball valve in the first place.

 

[Bishop1]

I've built a 5-way, 2-way, and 3-way valve similar to what you described.. it's a bit of an undertaking considering I always built the valve as well, if you buy an off-the-shelf valve and just actuate it it's pretty simple though. You need a little circuit knowledge to do it right tho.

 

[Reefgal]

Not sure if this will work with your DIY motor, but thought I'd suggest a valve for you. It is a Jandy 3-way valve. They are made for swimming pools. I used one of these valves along with one of their actuators, and put together a transformer assembly that would power it (the actuators are 12v or 24v). The valve itself is $38.00 for the 1.5" 3-way valve; the actuator was $185.00. You can see the valve at Best Buy Pool Supply. The valve might be a good option for you; it does not have a ball inside that will block the flow; while the valve switches you will actually get flow both ways, and then the valve will slowly turn to the other side. Total time to switch sides is 30 seconds.

I've also put together instructions on how to build the setup I am using on my webpage Look under the DIY section. I have been using this setup for a couple weeks now, and it works perfectly! The valve and actuator is silent - you can't hear it over the other sounds of the tank.


[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Reefgal ]

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Reefgal ]</p>

 

[mpoed1]

I'd try adapting a solenoid coil used for HVAC control. They are inexpnesive (20.00 EACH) A stainless steel 3 way run about 50.00. I'm not sure if the stainless are stainless enough. I just got finnished building my chiller and used titanium for the coil. They can be driven by low voltage, a real plus around a brine solution. I'm planning on using one for level control off my nilsen reactor. You can find these thing at your loca plumbing supply grainger or mcmaster carr. let me know how it goes

 

[maestro47]

Greetings!
Why not use a pump to lift water from the sump to irrigation solenoid valves controlled by a timer. The circuit to open and close the solenoids is simple and could be accomplished using a palm pilot.
Stuart A.