Replumbing my 180! Thanks Dave :D

[pnoyreefer]

My 180g tank needs an overhaul in plumbing department as I am not good in that area. I met Dave ( Psychographic) over at my place when we had our montly meetings. I kept in touch with him knowing that I have a fellow reefer who is 5 mins away from me. He watched over my tank also when I was gone for 4 days and really did a great job and from there on, I ask him if he can redo my plumbing as I hate my plumbing looks ( crooked, leaking ) . He willinlgly say yes and offer to do it for me. I just want to thank him for all his effort and time doing this as I know he is a busy guy. Thanks Dave !

This was taken lastnight and he did dry fit the top part and the bottom overflow. I was amazed how he did all this on less than 2 hrs lol.. I like it a lot..
Top

more info and pics to come

Steve

 

[KathyC]

Lucky you Steve..he did the original plumbing on my 75 and built both of my fuges for me. He does awesome work, I'm sure you'll be very pleased with the results!

 

[masterswimmer]

Steve, looks great. I've got some Q's though. That return setup has a HUGE amount of head pressure. Each fitting (90, ball valve, T, union, etc) adds 1' of head pressure. The length of the pipe is difficult to tell, maybe three vertical feet for each return?

From my cursory calculations I see close to 25' of head pressure there. What size pump are you going to use that will handle 25' of head plus still give you flow?

swimmer

 

[cali_reef]

Steve, looks great. I've got some Q's though. That return setup has a HUGE amount of head pressure. Each fitting (90, ball valve, T, union, etc) adds 1' of head pressure. The length of the pipe is difficult to tell, maybe three vertical feet for each return?

From my cursory calculations I see close to 25' of head pressure there. What size pump are you going to use that will handle 25' of head plus still give you flow?

swimmer

You don't add all the fittings in as part of the head pressure calculation when the same amount of water is being pumped thru multiple "parallel" plumbing. it actually decreases the friction lose. Don't ask me what the formula is, I don't remember much from the fluid dynamics class.

 

[Psycho graphic]

There are less bends in this than he has now:wink1: and his pump is turned down about 1/2 way. Steve will have to tell you what the pump actually is. The final bends at the top will probably be switched to Line Locs, this will eliminate one 90 and one 45 on each return, although I have no idea if they are restictive themselves, but he likes the idea of the adjustablity of aiming the flow where he needs it. If you also notice there are no Unions on this. I no longer use them as I feel they are way to restrictve, We're going to use Vinyl Tubing for junctions. I prefer this method as it's less expensive, it isolates the hard plumbing from the tank, cheaper and you know for sure if you have a seal (no hidden pinched or mis-seated (is that a word?) O-Rings).

Also there are two Unions and a Check Valve that will be removed which should increase the flow a bit. These are located right off the pump in the basement.

Steve wanted to use the existing holes through the floor which makes for a couple of mandatory bends.

As for the reason for all the valves, he is having a hard time keeping balance of flow from the left to the right and the tank is level (this is for the drains). Another reason to have each outlet on the returns adjustable by valve is If you should need a tempory are of low flow , say as in a recovering speciman that would prefer low flow you simply shut that area of the tank down.

I also added one Main shut off under the tank and one in the basement, so in case of any emergency you have access to imediately shut the system down without losing any other adjustments to the drains or returns. In the picture of the return you can see two valves right next to each other at the end, one of these will be within reach of the drain in the basement, it's just stuck on there so not to lose it.

How can I get less pressure and still have 3 outlets and still have 100% adjustability? I'm open to suggestions.

Steve, I had fun helping you, and my Duncan Looks fantastic. BTW, did ya' learn much about plumbing?

You guys need to see this stuff in Steve's tank, it's gorgeous!

 

[pnoyreefer]

Russ - Don't know much about plumbing so I hope dave's answered your question. Here is the pump I am using now

Sequence Marlin Reeflo UNO 2050GPH

 

[pnoyreefer]

Dave thanks for replying and thanks for the kudos

 

[kimoyo]

You don't add all the fittings in as part of the head pressure calculation when the same amount of water is being pumped thru multiple "parallel" plumbing. it actually decreases the friction lose. Don't ask me what the formula is, I don't remember much from the fluid dynamics class.

Pierce,

Are you sure about that? Wouldn't it depend on the pump also? Those branch pipes look like 3/4" and if he's using a dart with a 1.5" outlet, then wouldn't each fitting still add head pressure. If it was 1.5" going to four 1.5" pipes then what your saying makes sense, but not when the pipe size gets lowered.

My question isn't for this specific situation where it may not matter but for future reference.

Psycho graphic,

Nice work.

 

[Psycho graphic]

The retuns are all 1", same as the output on his pump.

 

[cali_reef]

BTW, having valves to restrict any drain is a VERY BAD idea...

 

[Psycho graphic]

Also if the drains look funny with one 3/4" and one 1" on each end, we are using the returns in his overflows to drains.

 

[Psycho graphic]

BTW, having valves to restrict any drain is a VERY BAD idea...

Why? because of something getting trapped in it?

I have run almost every tank that way and never ever had a problem.

 

[cali_reef]

Pierce,

Are you sure about that? Wouldn't it depend on the pump also? Those branch pipes look like 3/4" and if he's using a dart with a 1.5" outlet, then wouldn't each fitting still add head pressure. If it was 1.5" going to four 1.5" pipes then what your saying makes sense, but not when the pipe size gets lowered.

My question isn't for this specific situation where it may not matter but for future reference.

Psycho graphic,

Nice work.

Given a defined pump (dart with a 1.5" outlet) and calculating head pressure by adding all 3/4" fittings while some are in parallel will not give you the true head pressure. Yes, having 3/4" pipe in this set up will reduce head pressure significantly, but the parallel flow path are not reducing at the same rate as all of them are connected in series since the flow is being shared between the pipes.

The friction loss will be reduced with parallel plumbing if the pump chosen was more appropriate for the plumbing, it is a similar effect as upsizing the pipe diameter.

 

[cali_reef]

Why? because of something getting trapped in it?

I have run almost every tank that way and never ever had a problem.

I am assuming you are using them to balance the drain so they are less noisy, direct flow to certain peripheral as skimmer, carbon reactor. etc...

Yes, all it takes is one of the valves or peripherals to clog up slightly to cause the tank to overflow, give it time.

 

[kimoyo]

Given a defined pump (dart with a 1.5" outlet) and calculating head pressure by adding all 3/4" fittings while some are in parallel will not give you the true head pressure.

Thanks Pierce but I'm still confused. And I appreciate the help because when I tell someone something about plumbing I would prefer to be right .

I'm not talking about when Russ said each fitting is 1' of head pressure.

If I have a 1.5 pipe and I split it into four 3/4" pipes. I would first look at the area of the 1.5 pipe, 1.77 square inches and then the 3/4 pipe, 0.44 square inches. And since I have four 3/4 pipes, I multiply by four and get 1.77 square inches. Since the four 3/4 pipes has roughly the same cross-sectional area as one 1.5 pipe, I have no issues splitting them (even though I know with more pipe there will be more friction). If I put an elbow on each of those branches its seems like I'm adding the same amount of head from each of those elbows to the cumulative flow because I am adding the head pressure equally to all four.

Either way its not a big deal but it would be nice to understand it better.

 

[cali_reef]

Thanks Pierce but I'm still confused. And I appreciate the help because when I tell someone something about plumbing I would prefer to be right .

I'm not talking about when Russ said each fitting is 1' of head pressure.

If I have a 1.5 pipe and I split it into four 3/4" pipes. I would first look at the area of the 1.5 pipe, 1.77 square inches and then the 3/4 pipe, 0.44 square inches. And since I have four 3/4 pipes, I multiply by four and get 1.77 square inches. Since the four 3/4 pipes has roughly the same surface area as one 1.5 pipe, I have no issues splitting them (even though I know with more pipe there will be more friction). If I put an elbow on each of those branches its seems like I'm adding the same amount of head from each of those elbows to the cumulative flow because I am adding the head pressure equally to all four.

Either way its not a big deal but it would be nice to understand it better.

In your scenario the four 3/4" pipes will have more friction loss because the interior surface area of all four pipes are greater than the single 1.5 inch pipe, so it will not be as efficient as the single 1.5 inch pipe (But the trade off of having multiple outlets will be more desirable). It however does not equate to running the same 3,000GPH(or what ever the Dart is rated for) thru the 3/4" pipe and fitting in series. It is kinda like ohms law, friction loss will decrease if you provide greater path for the same flow and friction loss decreases with less\slower flow.
For example, if the pump is placed just beneath the tank with a straight 1.5 inch pipe run up to the tank, it should be about 6ft of head + 3 elbows to bring it into the tank = 9ft. he instead ran 4 ft of 1.5" pipe, than split the flow into four 3/4" pipes, that would calculate per Russ as: 4' of 1.5" pipe + 3x 3/4" tee and 1 90deg ell (manifold) + four 3/4" pipe @ 2' going verticle + three 3/4" ell for each of the four outlets = 28 feet of head(not counting the 3/4" horizontal pieces to cover a 180 gallon tank). All I am saying is the differential is not that great and you can not simply add all the fitting as friction loss when they are ran in parallel. In this case the Dart would be just putting out droplets of water @ 28ft of head pressure, and I am sure it is not the case for him.

 

[Psycho graphic]

Each fitting (90, ball valve, T, union, etc) adds 1' of head pressure.

I find it very hard to beleive that a 90, Ball Valve, T and a Union all have the exact same amount of restriction to them. I would think due to a Union having a considerable smaller inner diameter to it, that it would be much more considerable than a T, which is a straight run with an extra outlet on the side.

 

[cali_reef]

I find it very hard to beleive that a 90, Ball Valve, T and a Union all have the exact same amount of restriction to them. I would think due to a Union having a considerable smaller inner diameter to it, that it would be much more considerable than a T, which is a straight run with an extra outlet on the side.

Water does not like to turn on their own :lol2:.

Tees reduces flow and pressure, water flow is disturbed significantly at tee junctions thats why Y's are used to reduce disturbance. Unions reduce flow, which ends up using pressure to compensate for the loss.

 

[Psycho graphic]

Water does not like to turn on their own :lol2:.

Tees reduces flow and pressure, water flow is disturbed significantly at tee junctions thats why Y's are used to reduce disturbance. Unions reduce flow, which ends up using pressure to compensate for the loss.

Not my point. While I agree that all of these will restrict the flow, they ALL can't do it the exact same amount.

 

[kimoyo]

In your scenario the four 3/4" pipes will have more friction loss because the interior surface area of all four pipes are greater than the single 1.5 inch pipe, so it will not be as efficient as the single 1.5 inch pipe (But the trade off of having multiple outlets will be more desirable). It however does not equate to running the same 3,000GPH(or what ever the Dart is rated for) thru the 3/4" pipe and fitting in series. It is kinda like ohms law, friction loss will decrease if you provide greater path for the same flow and friction loss decreases with less\slower flow.
For example, if the pump is placed just beneath the tank with a straight 1.5 inch pipe run up to the tank, it should be about 6ft of head + 3 elbows to bring it into the tank = 9ft. he instead ran 4 ft of 1.5" pipe, than split the flow into four 3/4" pipes, that would calculate per Russ as: 4' of 1.5" pipe + 3x 3/4" tee and 1 90deg ell (manifold) + four 3/4" pipe @ 2' going verticle + three 3/4" ell for each of the four outlets = 28 feet of head(not counting the 3/4" horizontal pieces to cover a 180 gallon tank). All I am saying is the differential is not that great and you can not simply add all the fitting as friction loss when they are ran in parallel. In this case the Dart would be just putting out droplets of water @ 28ft of head pressure, and I am sure it is not the case for him.

Pierce Thanks! That makes total sense, your example seems a little excessive :lol2: but I get the point. If you have 1 1.5 line with some fittings and then you have another line but you branch it into 4 3/4 lines with the same fittings as the first, the head pressure can't be that much more. Its like ohm's law with resistance in parallel, that just clicked now, lol.