Miracle Mud. Is this stuff worth getting?
- Thread starter kmagyar
- Start date
Miracle Mud I beleive is from GARF, I'm sure much like the Wonder Mud from IPSF. Supposed to be loaded with benificial bacteria and life, sitting in the bottom of tanks for years they claim. Probably the only harm it could do would be your pocket book, who's going to be able to prove any benefits, although I myself like the idea.
How about asking a good LFS for some substrate out of the bottom of their tank? I added some to my order from Premium Aquatics for $1. It'll be here tomorrow along with a bunch of snails, a blue tuxedo urchin, macro algae and some supplies. Anyone care to guess what stage I'm at in my tank?
Damn hair algae.
I don't know much about the various miracle mud. It sure sounds nice, however, they systems I've seen have a yellow tint to them. Those that I have seen are the ecosystems.
I think I'm going to do a hybrid approach to my sump. I'll have one sump that my tanks overflow goes to. That sump will house the skimmer. It will have 2 bulk heads which lead to another sump. This sump will house a DSB, some Live rock, and a reverse daylight light over it. I'll toss in some algea and that should be it. That sump will have 2 bulk heads to a 3rd sump which will contain the return pump to the tank.
In short, I'm going to try sand, rock, and algae - if I can get Xenia to grow, it will go in there as well
Sorry - the mud seems to make the tanks water yellow. Maybe it is me.
Cheers,
oddball
I think I'm going to do a hybrid approach to my sump. I'll have one sump that my tanks overflow goes to. That sump will house the skimmer. It will have 2 bulk heads which lead to another sump. This sump will house a DSB, some Live rock, and a reverse daylight light over it. I'll toss in some algea and that should be it. That sump will have 2 bulk heads to a 3rd sump which will contain the return pump to the tank.
In short, I'm going to try sand, rock, and algae - if I can get Xenia to grow, it will go in there as well
Sorry - the mud seems to make the tanks water yellow. Maybe it is me.
Cheers,
oddball
i have an ecosystem with the mud. seems to work great. i am going to try a similiar sytem using aragonite sand and see if i get similiar results. i have seen some great refugiums doing a great job with some cheap sd sand. the price of the mud is what gets me.
I just finished checking out Ecosystem's website (www.ecosystemaquarium.com). My interest was perked after reading an article on it in the May '01 issue of TFH. One thing that bothered me was that they provide additives that claim to do the exact same thing the main filtration system already claims to do. Is this overkill? Also, the purpose of this system is to be relatively low-maintenance; adding solutions seems somewhat contradictory.
Also, the writer of the article claimed the one thing that astounded him about systems using the Mud was the clarity in water, and that it did NOT have a yellowish tint to it, unlike other systems.
Also, the writer of the article claimed the one thing that astounded him about systems using the Mud was the clarity in water, and that it did NOT have a yellowish tint to it, unlike other systems.
The basic concept is valid - it's a hang-on tank refugium. However, I would not spend $0.01 on the Miracle Mud.
We have examined it under high magnification and we believe it is simply dirt. We were unable to find any shell fragments, oolitic sand grains, or any other evidence that it was ever anywhere near an ocean. We found small chunks of quartz, other pebbles, humus, and small plant/root fragments. It is indistinguishable from backyard dirt.
Keep in mind that EcoSystems claims it is ocean mud dried through a "special process". Some others we have spoken to have found twigs and rodent droppings in it.
We also spent quite a while discussing this with the EcoSystems reps (Sy Leng and one of his sales people) at a recent trade show. They were unable to make any convincing, sound, scientific arguements about the product. One of their claims is that no trace element supplementation is needed, then as we left they gave us some product samples. When we looked at them later, Tom had a good laugh - they were trace element supplements.
BTW, their demo tank at the trade show looked terrible. Yellow, and all the corals were completely closed up.
[ June 05, 2001: Message edited by: MattM ]
We have examined it under high magnification and we believe it is simply dirt. We were unable to find any shell fragments, oolitic sand grains, or any other evidence that it was ever anywhere near an ocean. We found small chunks of quartz, other pebbles, humus, and small plant/root fragments. It is indistinguishable from backyard dirt.
Keep in mind that EcoSystems claims it is ocean mud dried through a "special process". Some others we have spoken to have found twigs and rodent droppings in it.
We also spent quite a while discussing this with the EcoSystems reps (Sy Leng and one of his sales people) at a recent trade show. They were unable to make any convincing, sound, scientific arguements about the product. One of their claims is that no trace element supplementation is needed, then as we left they gave us some product samples. When we looked at them later, Tom had a good laugh - they were trace element supplements.
BTW, their demo tank at the trade show looked terrible. Yellow, and all the corals were completely closed up.
[ June 05, 2001: Message edited by: MattM ]
Quite a few reeefers on this board uses MM and are satisfied with its results.
I personally started my 120G running on a MM refugium since November 2000.
I must say I'm happy with the results so far - good coral color,extension and color of fish great.
So far, no protein skimming or additive used. Only dose kalk for calcium and pH maintenance.
Water a little yellow tinge arising from a restart of the main tank in April due to a leak. A short carbon treatment was all it needed. During this time while awaiting for the new tank to come, lots of organism, corals & fish perished as I placed them in a 44G plactic drum and plumb them into the MM sump. Today, I'm still using the same mud when the cycling complete.
Yes, the initial startup was high but I figure in the long term, the trade off is worth it as I need not maintain a protein skimmer or add expensive additives.
I really got no clue what's in the mud. The fact that it demonstrates long term success without skimming and additives is a benefit I enjoyed. I can understand the inventor keeping mum regarding its constituents as trade secret.
Will be interesting if someone try backyard dirt and tell us what's the result.
Cheers
I personally started my 120G running on a MM refugium since November 2000.
I must say I'm happy with the results so far - good coral color,extension and color of fish great.
So far, no protein skimming or additive used. Only dose kalk for calcium and pH maintenance.
Water a little yellow tinge arising from a restart of the main tank in April due to a leak. A short carbon treatment was all it needed. During this time while awaiting for the new tank to come, lots of organism, corals & fish perished as I placed them in a 44G plactic drum and plumb them into the MM sump. Today, I'm still using the same mud when the cycling complete.
Yes, the initial startup was high but I figure in the long term, the trade off is worth it as I need not maintain a protein skimmer or add expensive additives.
I really got no clue what's in the mud. The fact that it demonstrates long term success without skimming and additives is a benefit I enjoyed. I can understand the inventor keeping mum regarding its constituents as trade secret.
Will be interesting if someone try backyard dirt and tell us what's the result.
Cheers
Tangirl I also bought some sludge for a $1 from Premium Aquatics. In my personal opinion it is good. It too me is what I believe mud should be. It was dark and filled with broken shells, sand (very fine), reef rubble, plant life, etc. It helped to seed my new 75gal. I was really impressed, but their LS is not good. Premium Aquatics in general is a great company.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ravenstar:
<STRONG>Matt, interesting info, have you ever put the Wonder Mud from IPSF under the same type of scrutiny?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No we haven't, but I don't really think there is a need. The IPSF product is a live, wet mud - basically a silt-heavy version of live sand. Whereas the EcoSystems product is a jar of dirt.
Apples and Oranges really.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by henry:
<STRONG>Quite a few reeefers on this board uses MM and are satisfied with its results.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't doubt that, I just don't think that any of your success is attributable to the $7/lb dirt!
[ June 05, 2001: Message edited by: MattM ]
<STRONG>Matt, interesting info, have you ever put the Wonder Mud from IPSF under the same type of scrutiny?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No we haven't, but I don't really think there is a need. The IPSF product is a live, wet mud - basically a silt-heavy version of live sand. Whereas the EcoSystems product is a jar of dirt.
Apples and Oranges really.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by henry:
<STRONG>Quite a few reeefers on this board uses MM and are satisfied with its results.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't doubt that, I just don't think that any of your success is attributable to the $7/lb dirt!
[ June 05, 2001: Message edited by: MattM ]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rickb:
<STRONG>couldnt I just go and dig up some dirt from a local saltwater marsh and use that?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, probably much better. We've had great success with 80 lbs of Florida Keys mud that I collected in February. Absolutly loaded with life and now forms sand/mud bed in the lagoon tank/refugium of our 220 gallon zoned system.
Just try make sure the area you collect from is relatively free of oil/heavy metals/other pollutants.
<STRONG>couldnt I just go and dig up some dirt from a local saltwater marsh and use that?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, probably much better. We've had great success with 80 lbs of Florida Keys mud that I collected in February. Absolutly loaded with life and now forms sand/mud bed in the lagoon tank/refugium of our 220 gallon zoned system.
Just try make sure the area you collect from is relatively free of oil/heavy metals/other pollutants.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kmagyar:
<STRONG>Matt,
Do you sell this mud?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No. If you want this sort of thing, I would order it from Indo-Pacific Sea Farms. Or collect it locally if you live near an ocean. I found it was a great excuse to take a long weekend trip to Key West!
Paulette -
As I said before, I don't doubt that people have had some success with this system. You have, essentially, an algal turf scrubber - the excess nutrients in your main takn are consumed by the caulerpa and other algaes in your EcoSystems filter.
However, what if your setup worked exactly the same using dirt from your backyard? My only complaint is that many claims are made for this "Miracle Mud" product, and we have not seen any valid arguements from the manufacturer or analytical evidence from examining the product to support any of them.
Further, the manufacturer claims this is a dried sea mud, and I have serious doubts about the truthhood of that claim.
Add to this the cost (about $7 per pound) and the instructions that you must replace half of it every 6 months. To me, it sounds more like a carefully engineered revenue stream than a scientifically valid reefkeeping approach.
<STRONG>Matt,
Do you sell this mud?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No. If you want this sort of thing, I would order it from Indo-Pacific Sea Farms. Or collect it locally if you live near an ocean. I found it was a great excuse to take a long weekend trip to Key West!
Paulette -
As I said before, I don't doubt that people have had some success with this system. You have, essentially, an algal turf scrubber - the excess nutrients in your main takn are consumed by the caulerpa and other algaes in your EcoSystems filter.
However, what if your setup worked exactly the same using dirt from your backyard? My only complaint is that many claims are made for this "Miracle Mud" product, and we have not seen any valid arguements from the manufacturer or analytical evidence from examining the product to support any of them.
Further, the manufacturer claims this is a dried sea mud, and I have serious doubts about the truthhood of that claim.
Add to this the cost (about $7 per pound) and the instructions that you must replace half of it every 6 months. To me, it sounds more like a carefully engineered revenue stream than a scientifically valid reefkeeping approach.
I too was an ex-ecosystem user. If anyone wants to find more about the mud on this site, go do a search on the archive under Miracle Mud/Ecosystem, you will find tons of threads. I have replied in previous thread in detail, so I am just summarizing it now.
I can achieve the same caulerpa growth by using aragnite sand as subtrate and stronger lighting. I am using a 40G as my sump now and sugar grained aragnite as subtrate. The sand is 10" deep and the caulerpa is growing fast too. I get a combination of DSB and algae scrubber at the same time! $7-10/lb for the mud? I won't buy it again.
I can achieve the same caulerpa growth by using aragnite sand as subtrate and stronger lighting. I am using a 40G as my sump now and sugar grained aragnite as subtrate. The sand is 10" deep and the caulerpa is growing fast too. I get a combination of DSB and algae scrubber at the same time! $7-10/lb for the mud? I won't buy it again.
Matt. Thanks for explaination of my system..algae turf scrubber. Does this make any difference in the long haul? Wish I had a better grasp of all this stuff.
I just checked Mike Paletta's article in TFH saying this system uses algae in a somewhat different manner from turf scrubbers by the sump being illuminated 24 hours/day. In just skimming this article, I didn't see any negative remarks about the mud.
I hear you and understand your comments on miracle mud and it would be lot cheaper coming from the backyard. Please let me know if you find out definitely that this stuff is a rip off.
FYI: My owner's manual (and LFS) say replace 50% of the mud every two years.
I just checked Mike Paletta's article in TFH saying this system uses algae in a somewhat different manner from turf scrubbers by the sump being illuminated 24 hours/day. In just skimming this article, I didn't see any negative remarks about the mud.
I hear you and understand your comments on miracle mud and it would be lot cheaper coming from the backyard. Please let me know if you find out definitely that this stuff is a rip off.
FYI: My owner's manual (and LFS) say replace 50% of the mud every two years.
I know nothing of the product but, was just wondering.....if this stuff is dried (under a "special" method or not) isn't any benefical life and bacteria dead when you get it?
Another question...how is mud, sand, etc...suppose to replace a skimmer in removing protiens?
Just curious and maybe I should go to the site to check it out. Where is it?
As consumers, reefers or not...CAVIAT EMPTOR (Buyer Beware)!!
Another question...how is mud, sand, etc...suppose to replace a skimmer in removing protiens?
Just curious and maybe I should go to the site to check it out. Where is it?
As consumers, reefers or not...CAVIAT EMPTOR (Buyer Beware)!!
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