Dreaded disease has killed 5 fish already!

[JLAudio]

What began as what I though was ich has taken a turn for the worse and has killed 6 fish in 2 days, I have a few quarentined fish and few that I am having relocated tommorow (thanks dex), or a new QT if I can set up tonight.

I fear it is brooklynella based on symptoms (cloudy eyes, white patches, not dots, lethargic, heavy breathing, loss of equilibreum and FAST DEAT! I first noticed a little ich a few days ago and isolated those fish, all theifish that died, went from slightly lethargic to DEAD in a day or 2. It even wiped out 2 clowns and a grouper, now even my niger trigger looks like his color is getting opaque and he didnt eat. I fear by the time I get home from work there will be more deaths. I have my 10 gallon qt stocked, with 3 medium fish.

The question is what should I do with my tank once its empty of fish?
I know keep empty for a duration of time, but how long?
Should I remove rock and HYPO whole tank for a month, or do a 100% water change.

(My parameters and husbandry were flawless, I have messed with salinity and a dose of kick ich which could have added to stress but this is a ruthless disease, I ve had saltwater tanks for 5 years and never saw anything kill like this before.

Please any thoughts are welcomed

 

[georgelc86]

Hey JL, KathyC put out a great link with info on Brooklynella and its treatment. If I remember correctly fresh water dips didnt help but Formalin did. I dont remember anything about hypo being effective.

 

[pecan2phat]

You first need to determine if the disease is parasitic, bacterial or both. If it is just parasitic, you can leave your tank fallow (fishless) for a minimum of 35 days. If it is also bacterial, you "might" need to treat with antibiotics such as erythromycin. Contrary to thought, if you have an established tank that is 12 months old, the antibiotic will not wipe out your biological filtration if used correctly and within recommended dosage.

 

[Bikinisalt]

Dude this really sucks. I feel your pain. I wish I could do something for you. I hate this hobby because of sh**t like this...

 

[latino277]

dude that sux.... I feel your pain. I still have the 20g i can lend you for QT. Let me know

 

[caad3]

Sorry to hear about your loss. Unfortunetly you had to learn the hard way. Same thing happened to me. Sounds like Brook to me. What worked for me was formalin dips. As far as your main tank is concerned, I would try and keep fallow, as well as buy an uv light. I know people are going to disagree with me, but when something nasty pops up in my tank, I feel that the UV light does help

Good luck

 

[KathyC]

JL..not to be harsh but you first posted about this a full week ago. Please keep in mind that with any fish illness you need to react as quickly as possible, once you have a good idea of what you are dealing with.

As Warren points out below, you may now have a combination of both parasites and a bacterial issue (not uncommon this far into it).
If possible you should QT the fish at your own home as moving them at this point would stress them even further and the possible dipping & medicating is time consuming (and water changes & testing that goes with medicating).

You need not take anything out of your display except the fish. Again Warren makes a good point and I would suggest treating the DT with erythromycin. If there ich in the tank. it will die off on it's own with no host fish. (inverts don't host)

As far as your fish, I'm more inclined to suggest you treat with copper, BUT I could be wrong. This is where it becomes such a gray area in treating fish. Without a scraping from a fish being examined, you won't know for sure which parasite you are dealing with, and it could be one of many. MOST are treated with copper, only Brooklynella is treated with formalin (in marine fish..well, black ich, but I'm not getting into that now..).
Unless you plan on taking a sample to your vet (if they are equiped to examine the sample), we're working off a guess here.
The other small clue that leads me to copper (and not Brooklynella) is that after a week you still have some fish that are alive (I'm sorry). Ich kills slower than Brooklynella, and an marine ich infection can have the same symptoms you are describing.

You have no more time to waste. You need to get the chealted copper, a copper test kit (to be certain you are dosing correctly) and you MUST add an airline as copper is very tough on fish. Your salinity must also be back in the 'normal' range. You cannot hypo & treat with copper together.

I do not know if you also have a bacterial issue on top if the ich, pics would be helpful if they are clear, but still not definitively...

 

[JLAudio]

It isnt just parasitic, I guarentee. In my 5+ years, Ive seen ich many times, ich does not kill fish at this rate. There was a few fish with ich, but not sure how it relates to all the death, because there was not slow demise of the fish but rather 6 strong healthy fish with not a spot of ich, die with first symptoms being unaturally lethargic, the one clown appeared "mad" in the sense he was ramming into wall and the skin on his face was falling apart, all fish that died had opaque skin and large white blothes, I would guarentee it is bacterial

Once a few years ago, I had a large catastrophe like this and it started with me noticing ich first (I wonder if this could be the disease stressing the fish giving false symptoms) Than the same rapid death and cloudy eyed whitish fish dieing in droves.

I must do further research but thank you all for your support and help

JOHN, I might take you up on the offer for that tank, I have to see what I could do tonight when home from work.
BIKINI, I appreciate your empathy becasue I was contemplating selling everything last night I was so stressed,
KATHYC, I dont mind if your ever harsh because I know your intentions are good and you are constantly helping me with your posts and advice
PECAN and GEORGE, I will look into this and post when I have a better understanding and a better diagnosis

 

[pecan2phat]

If you do treat with erythromycin, use 100 mg per 10g of water everyday for the first four days then every other day for 5 additional applications. That is a total of nine treatments over a course of 16 days.
Your skimmer will overflow so either adjust accordingly or turn it off. In my past usage, it has been relatively coral safe but again, your system needs to be established. 9 to 12 months minimal.
You have to complete the treatment or antibiotics would be useless as in human consumption.

 

[JLAudio]

If you do treat with erythromycin, use 100 mg per 10g of water everyday for the first four days then every other day for 5 additional applications. That is a total of nine treatments over a course of 16 days.
Your skimmer will overflow so either adjust accordingly or turn it off. In my past usage, it has been relatively coral safe but again, your system needs to be established. 9 to 12 months minimal.
You have to complete the treatment or antibiotics would be useless as in human consumption.

Because No fish will be in there after tonight, I am going to turn off skimmer all together and begin treatment this weekend. I really appreaciate information Pecan, I hope this and keeping tank void of fish for a month, aswell QT everything (fowlr or not) will hopefully keep this disaster from ever occuring again

 

[Bikinisalt]

I have a question for you; What fish did you buy that started all of this and from where? If do not mind me asking...

 

[JLAudio]

There are a few culprits:

One being Porcupine puffers bought from FISHTOWN sickly and appeared to have ich, but were Quickly put into QT but never died, so not sure

The other 2 fish that it would have to be between would be

Emperator- from a store vendor from this site that I will not name because It was ultimately my fault for not QTing (So stupid didnt even think of QTing a fowlr)

Sailfin tang-Pets new hydepark

Ironically the sailfin and puffer are doing well in QT where the potential other fish they infected are dropping like flys and my parameters are perfect, even by reef standards and its a fowlr (NOT EVEN PHOSPHATES OR nitrates!)

PLEASE EVERYONE QT ALL FISH BOUGHT REGARDLESS OF TYPE OF TANK! I HAVE QUITE A FEW PPL MESSAGING ME ABOUT SIMILAR SCENARIOS, I BELIEVE A RECENT BATCH OF FISH TO BE INFECTED WITH SOMETHING. THERE IS NO WAY ICH WOULD KILL A CHERRY GROUPER AND CINNAMON CLOWN IN A DAY, WHEN THEY DIDNT HAVE A SPOT ON THEM

These were the only new additions in last few weeks

 

[JLAudio]

Just got a 20 gallon QT and moved all fish over to it, Now the cleansing of the main tank, where should I begin

 

[cb747]

Follow Warrens (Pecan) advise with the antibiotic and just leave the tank fallow. Write todays date down so you dont forget the date

 

[JLAudio]

Follow Warrens (Pecan) advise with the antibiotic and just leave the tank fallow. Write todays date down so you dont forget the date

After further researching I am 100% positive what killed my fish was brooklynella. It is listed as a protozoa, so would Pecans advice still apply?

 

[Awibrandy]

I was one of those that pm'ed J. Now here is my story. This has happened to my fowlr again. The last time this happened was some months back as some of you may remember. The tank then was left fallow for 2 months. Fish were placed in QT. Fish
The upgrade was sometime in July, which I messed up by not rinsing the new ESV sand. I got hit with a mild case of ich again which I attributed to the mistake with the sand. Since this is my fowlr I treated with cupramine. I had not seen anything in the tank since. Last week this tank was hit with ich again. Parameters were, and are all within the normal range for this particular tank. As I have always for 6-7 years kept my fowlr at 1.020. Point of the matter is that there were no new additions, and the youngest fish in this tank was the orange toad fish which I purchased as far back as October,2007.
What stressed the fish out to cause this? Your guess is as good mine. The only thing I can think of is that the tank is not quite established since the upgrade is only 6 months & almost double in size from 75g to 120g, and I did mess up with the sand.
I contacted J, in the efforts to help him. I wasn't using my QT so I offered to lend it to him, as I am treating my fish in my display tank once again. This time I used "CopperSafe" a chelated copper since I could not find the Cupramine, and was told by one of our vendors here that it was just as safe as Cupramine(which as per manufacture's agent is not true, med. is not safe for angels, dogface puffers, eels, lr, and so on) thank God I still have my puffer & eel. Hopefully this is the last time. Before I dosed the tank the recommended dose I removed all the lr, and cleaned them by rinsing them in fresh ro/di salt water in several buckets, did a pretty big water change while vacuuming the sand bed of any gunk build up from the lr.
My other two tanks (both reefs) are absolutely fine. Go figure, you'd think the easiest tank should be the one to be fine.

Now for a word of CAUTION as read on wikepedia while doing more research on this disease:

Click here: MarParasitCureFAQs


<Yikes... I was with you on the repeat dip (needed) and the methylene blue (increases O2)... but you lost me on the copper. Angels are very (!) copper sensitive.>

PS Best to use these meds in a hospital tank. My case was/is that my fish are to large for my 20g ht.

 

[JLAudio]

AWIBRANDY, I know how frustrating it is, If you need any help with these projects let me know. Thanks again for help

 

[Awibrandy]

Thanks J! It was all done last Sat., now it is just a wait and see type of thing. The fish that survived once again look fine, and are behaving as normal as can be.

 

[pecan2phat]

After further researching I am 100% positive what killed my fish was brooklynella. It is listed as a protozoa, so would Pecans advice still apply?

If you think the symptoms point to brook then no, I would not treat with erythromycin since brook is not bacterial.

 

[JLAudio]

If brooklynella, than what should I treat with (besides formalin dips) for qt fish