Any ideas for an air pump-less gouramy (kissing including).
- Thread starter Baianotang
- Start date
Baianotang":378bn3pu said:
Sounds good to me. With a well planted tank, you generally don't want an airstone anyhow.
How big are you looking at?
Do you want just gourami, or are you looking at more of a community tank with gouramis as the centerpiece?
I have never had a gourmay but have had live bearers, neons, and angles in my fw tanks. All have been filtered with plant life only and not even an air stone. With straight tap, and only replacing the water that evaporates. For up to 6 years continuous operation.
So yes it is very possible. Just start the plant life as the initial setup. And let the system take care of itself.
So yes it is very possible. Just start the plant life as the initial setup. And let the system take care of itself.
beaslbob":b0wq1trx said:
Question:
How do you prevent "hardness" creep of your water doign tap water only replacements?
IE you lose water, but not the buffering compounds to evaporation. When you add water, you add more of those. Over time this does build up, and does affect plant and fish life.
If you change out the now harder than tap water on occasion the water changes will help this.
Other than that (and with soft tap water, it could be a slow to almost nonexistent process, but I've had tap water some places that would make even the african cichlid guys eyes bulge) once the tank is established that should work jsut fine at least with slower growing low(ish) light plants.
With high intensity light you will quickly outsritp the nutrients from the tap water at a rate far in excess of replacemtn due to evaporation.
Based on your solution to *everything* being plants and nothing else, I'd take any advice presented with a large grain of salt.
I agree that plants can provide the only filtration (they're all I'm basically using) and in some limited cases, tap water evaporation replacement may even be all that's needed, but I would hardly suggest it as the only solution needed (especailly not when you seem to want to apply it to essentially every aquarium out there)
I actually do run a small filter, but the fitlration it does is only a side effect. I'm actually using it to get a bit of water movement and happened to have the filter so am using it instead of buying something else.
And while I have not accused you of being a troll (despite the PM you sent me indicating I did for mereely pointing out at least one probelm with what you said), I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that perhaps one doth protest too much.
Lots of plants need more iron (to pick a prominent example) than is likely to be presnt in the tap water (proper substrate choice may very well take care of iron, but it was just an example). Though I'll be the first to admit not all, especially not the lower light, slower growing varieties. But higher nutrient uptake is (generally) associated with faster growth, and so if you're using them as your sole filtration, you're probably looking at at least some of the moderate-high lighet, faster growing species.
But, to be fair, what plants would you suggest. Perhaps the ones you use would work just ifne in the environment you describe. I'm sure finding some that would still be alive in 6 years would be easy, the trick would be finding some that would be alive in 6 years with little to no maintenace that are also attractive and would provide sufficient nutrient uptake to be the sole source of filtration.
To recap if you choose your plants very carefully, you can get by with just the plants and the fish with little to no additional work. These plants are likely to be slower growing varieties, and so will provide (in general) less nutrient uptake than the faster varieties, and so if you do so your stocking choices will be much more limited, and without care you'll be facing a monstrous algae epidemic as the plants are not growing fast enough/takign enough nutrients out of the water fast enough to outcompete the algae as they would in a slightly more complicated tank.
If you move up to faster growing plants, and higher light, you will almost undoubteldy strip one nutirent or another (depending on tap water content, food input, etc) out of the water faster than it will be replaced my a system of tap water makeup and no changes/supplementation. So your plants growith will flater, and once again, its algae bloom time.
My tank runs a lot of light (but it's really deep, so this is needed even for slower platns) and a yeast based CO2 injeciton system that makes a *huge* difference in the palnt growth (and correspondign reduciton in algae). that's basically it. It also runs a small HOB filter, but the primary purpose is jsut to filter out the occasional stray leaf and such and other simple mechanical filtration and it gets changed frequently enough that I doubt any significant biological/chemical filtration takes place in it. It also provides additional water movement wihtout disturbign teh water surface too mcuh, to help move CO2 laden water form the CO2 input to the rest of the plants.
So palnts are providing me with most if not all of my major chemical/biologica filtration. And there growth (and subsequent reduction in algae grwoth) is *very* clearly reliant on far more than simple tap water makeup would provide.
Planted tanks can be simple (as long as you don't go for a 2' deep tank like mine) but even then tap water evaporation makeup is unlikely to be sufficient. And in the case of tap water, a wter change is as close to free as you're going to get, why take that chance? There's not even any salt mix invovled for these tanks.
All I know is it works. 20-30 live bearers in a 10g for 6 continuous years. single 18" NO tube. anacorus, vals, small potted types and a center amazon sword. substrait silica play sand. No water changes. No co2 injection. No water changes, no filter, no heater. Just the tank, sand plants fish and a light.
Never measure anything. As I said it just works. And has worked in many different cities in the US when I was in the Air Force.
Never measure anything. As I said it just works. And has worked in many different cities in the US when I was in the Air Force.
a 10 gal tank w/30 fish is not a leiden tank, by definition
leiden tanks classically have a VERY low fish bioload in relation to the amount of plant biomass in the system
while i won't discount the possibility that you've kept tanks the way you claim, i'd suggest it's not the best advice to be used for suggesting others follow your stated method :wink:
i severely doubt any system's ability to support vigorous plant growth long term, or fish health long term. w/o water CHANGES, not just evap. replacement
eventually, some waste products WILL build up to the point where fish health is affected
(plants do NOT remove everything) :wink:
leiden tanks classically have a VERY low fish bioload in relation to the amount of plant biomass in the system
while i won't discount the possibility that you've kept tanks the way you claim, i'd suggest it's not the best advice to be used for suggesting others follow your stated method :wink:
i severely doubt any system's ability to support vigorous plant growth long term, or fish health long term. w/o water CHANGES, not just evap. replacement
eventually, some waste products WILL build up to the point where fish health is affected
(plants do NOT remove everything) :wink:
kissing gouramis may destroy plants, btw, can get quite large, and mildly agressive towards other fish
blue and gold gouramis can also get mildly 'annoying'
if you want to do a mixed gourami species tank, i'd suggest a 55-75 gal tank minimum, as the kissers can hit 6-8" quite easily
blue and gold gouramis can also get mildly 'annoying'
if you want to do a mixed gourami species tank, i'd suggest a 55-75 gal tank minimum, as the kissers can hit 6-8" quite easily
As I said all I can do is report what works for me. And I started my first as a newbie with less than a year's experience. It is kinda hard to screw up a system that does not require any mechanical devices and just replacing the water that evaporates.
And the fish I kept did not attack the plants. So for fish that do attack the plants a refugium would probably be required.
And the fish I kept did not attack the plants. So for fish that do attack the plants a refugium would probably be required.
vitz":6o8svlbf said:
Apparently your definition is different from mine.
Mine is from articles in freshwater and marine aquarium articles by Robert Gasser feb 1979 and part 2 and part 3 in sept/october that year. Reprints are available.
The tanks he described as leiden were basically a tank, gravel, plants and water. He used incandescent lights and left the top open for air exchange. Mine are the same only with sand for gravel, and NO for the incand.
His articles also describe a very heavy fish load with egg layer larvae growing up in same tank as the adults and being protected by the leaves of the plant life.
I started my current two years ago with two fish. Today there are 20-30 fish with no more fish having been added. Just works that way.
As I understand leiden it is the reliance on the plant life as the sole filtration and balancing that makes it leiden. The thriving plant growth and heavy fish load are just results. Perhaps your definition is different?
Ive had great success over the last 3 years with a planted tank with no airstone... very natural looking. The last year or so I've not even had algae difficulties. I think the key is to make sure you pick up some fast growing plants that use the nutriants up quickly.. as well as some slow growers. Try some Swords, Java Farns, and some Anarchias (spelling? fast growing). Good luck.
As far as fish I keep angels (5) and 2 nice size bala sharks in my 30 gallon with no problem.
As far as fish I keep angels (5) and 2 nice size bala sharks in my 30 gallon with no problem.
leiden tanks originated in holland in the late 1800's/early 1900's, and have nothing to do w/gasser, all he's done is misconstrue/misinterpret the definition concept
just because he spews forth gibberish and misinformation is no reason to further it onward :wink:
leiden is the name of the natural science museum/town in the netherlands, after which the style of aquarium keeping is named, and where it originated, and has always referred to aquaria that use LOTS of plants exclusively as the main filtration method for low level fish population aquaria
since their inception, the emphasis has always been on a huge plant biomass in relation to fish biomass, which was the whole reason for the leiden style's success rate to begin with
try getting a hold of early aquarium literature (pre 1960-1950) and you'll find some excellent examples of what a 'leiden' or 'dutch' aquarium should look like
amano's tanks are modeled after the 'leiden', or 'dutch' principle of aquarium keeping
do a google image search on Takashi Amano and you'll see some stunning examples of the aforementioned style of aquarium keeping
just because he spews forth gibberish and misinformation is no reason to further it onward :wink:
leiden is the name of the natural science museum/town in the netherlands, after which the style of aquarium keeping is named, and where it originated, and has always referred to aquaria that use LOTS of plants exclusively as the main filtration method for low level fish population aquaria
since their inception, the emphasis has always been on a huge plant biomass in relation to fish biomass, which was the whole reason for the leiden style's success rate to begin with
try getting a hold of early aquarium literature (pre 1960-1950) and you'll find some excellent examples of what a 'leiden' or 'dutch' aquarium should look like
amano's tanks are modeled after the 'leiden', or 'dutch' principle of aquarium keeping
do a google image search on Takashi Amano and you'll see some stunning examples of the aforementioned style of aquarium keeping
Well Gasser did mention leiden almost in passing but basically emphasized the balanced planted approach. And he also sold plants 
A leiden tank is filtered only by plants. My Fw are filtered only by plants. Therefore I think it qualifies. Besides most the google hits I got were in a foreign language (dutch? LOL).
thanks for the references. I intend to look them up sometime. Meanwhile, leiden or whatever, I'll just continue to do what works.
Bob
A leiden tank is filtered only by plants. My Fw are filtered only by plants. Therefore I think it qualifies. Besides most the google hits I got were in a foreign language (dutch? LOL).
thanks for the references. I intend to look them up sometime. Meanwhile, leiden or whatever, I'll just continue to do what works.
Bob
Baianotang, it's certainly possible however it's not something I'd suggest unless you slowly reached this over time and with some experience under the belt. Low light planted tanks can surely go for 4-6 months between requiring water changes, but it's a delicate balance between fish load and nutrient uptake. In short, you have to have enough waste produced to keep the plants growing without creating deficiencies or eccess accumulations. While the goal of reaching such balance can be a milestone in the hobbyist's mind, it certainly doesn't make the tank any better than one that does receives water changes. I'd start with doing water changes, at least monthly until you reach a happy balance. If something goes wrong, it's easy to fix with some water changes. There are also some other issues we have discussed in the past in plant forums regarding buildup of organic elements and hormones that are not used by plants which could stunt the growth of the fish or cause other unwanted side effects.
One of my tanks in my wife's office is setup to be a low maintenance tank, it receives a 20% water change every two months to replenish trace elements for the plants, no fertilizers used in the water, just Flourish tabs in the substrate every 4 months or so. Fish and plant load are well balanced to maintain a steady concentration of nitrates in the 5-10ppm range. But if I let it go too long between water changes I do start to see deficiencies with some of the faster growing plants. With less light and slower growing plants I could certainly do changes every 6 months or so.
Air pumps are usually not used in planted tanks, they cause CO2 loss in most cases which will slow down plant growth. Some surface agitation is sufficient to maintain oxygen levels in freshwater, unless you are grossly overstocked that is. Do however keep in mind that gouramis are bubble nest builders and are used to stagnant waters to build their nests. If breeding is something you want to try, you may need to find a way to have a couple corners where surface agitation is at minimum.
As far as Dutch Vs leiden , I think it's wrong to try to place these two in the same category. "Dutch" and "Nature Aquarium" are the two major aquascaping techniques in use today, one originated from holland, the other from Japan in the hands of Takashi Amano. Leiden on the other hand, refers to a technique of maintaining a planted tank, this method can be used to maintain any kind of aquascaping style or aquascaping technique. A more recent and detailed explaination of this "natural" method, is published by Diana Walstad in her book titled "Ecology of the planted tank". Just like in reef tanks there are various ways of managing them, lamen or natural is one method, PMDD is another, Estimative Index by Tom Bar yet another and then all the other forms that people generate on their own as they learn more about their tank and find what works best.
What works in one tank doesn't always work in another, hard to say if a method is better than another, if it's working in one tank, then it's a good method for that tank. There are some guidelines however as to which one may be a better method in one's tank, for example the leiden method is popular in the 1-2 watt per gallon range of lighting, over that amount and PMDD or estimative index produce better results.
Hope that helps
Giancarlo
http://www.gpodio.com
One of my tanks in my wife's office is setup to be a low maintenance tank, it receives a 20% water change every two months to replenish trace elements for the plants, no fertilizers used in the water, just Flourish tabs in the substrate every 4 months or so. Fish and plant load are well balanced to maintain a steady concentration of nitrates in the 5-10ppm range. But if I let it go too long between water changes I do start to see deficiencies with some of the faster growing plants. With less light and slower growing plants I could certainly do changes every 6 months or so.
Air pumps are usually not used in planted tanks, they cause CO2 loss in most cases which will slow down plant growth. Some surface agitation is sufficient to maintain oxygen levels in freshwater, unless you are grossly overstocked that is. Do however keep in mind that gouramis are bubble nest builders and are used to stagnant waters to build their nests. If breeding is something you want to try, you may need to find a way to have a couple corners where surface agitation is at minimum.
As far as Dutch Vs leiden , I think it's wrong to try to place these two in the same category. "Dutch" and "Nature Aquarium" are the two major aquascaping techniques in use today, one originated from holland, the other from Japan in the hands of Takashi Amano. Leiden on the other hand, refers to a technique of maintaining a planted tank, this method can be used to maintain any kind of aquascaping style or aquascaping technique. A more recent and detailed explaination of this "natural" method, is published by Diana Walstad in her book titled "Ecology of the planted tank". Just like in reef tanks there are various ways of managing them, lamen or natural is one method, PMDD is another, Estimative Index by Tom Bar yet another and then all the other forms that people generate on their own as they learn more about their tank and find what works best.
What works in one tank doesn't always work in another, hard to say if a method is better than another, if it's working in one tank, then it's a good method for that tank. There are some guidelines however as to which one may be a better method in one's tank, for example the leiden method is popular in the 1-2 watt per gallon range of lighting, over that amount and PMDD or estimative index produce better results.
Hope that helps
Giancarlo
http://www.gpodio.com
Yep they are used to indicate the same kind of tank, but from your conversation it appears you are comparing the aquascaping aspect to the method of maintaing a dutch tank. I know in older literature the two are always used together to indicate both aspects of a tank, but the term Dutch seems to be used more commonly today to indicate the style of aquascaping rather than method of keeping the tank, perhaps because today there are various methods used to maintain a tank while the aquascaping technique has remained the same. Perhaps I'm just too used to the lingo used in aquascaping forums rather than literature... :?
Giancarlo Podio
www.gpodio.com
Giancarlo Podio
www.gpodio.com
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