Pellets vs Blackworms vs Fish Roe vs Clams vs Frozen

[Charley]

Curious to hear what people opinions are on which is really the best food for our fish. Alot of discussion about gut bacteria. But all discussion usually based on experiences not research or scientific fact it seems. A bit disheartening in the sense that we spend so much on our hobby, people saying how we need to treat our animals well and yet no one with a true research background, ichthyologist, or similar can lead us definitively to the best answers. Of course, love to hear from experienced hobbyists since I doubt the scientific community is on and ready to respond.

Thanks

 

[prattreef]

All of the above in rotation. Which is what public aquariums do, and they are the closest we get to "experts' dealing with a wide range of animals for long periods of time. Unless you can replicate a wild animal's exact diet, variety is the best course of action IMO/E

 

[Charley]

Thank you! also was thinking in terms of actually measuring the gut bacteria from the stomach. For example: if you fed the same type of clownfish in 3 groups in 3 different tanks, 1 tank only pellets, the other only blackworms, the other in rotation and at the end of maybe 6 mos ( for the lack of knowing how long )tested for the gut bacteria within each group, would it be the same? Couldn't this be determined definitively once and for all instead of speculation and observation? Great respect for all the serious hobbyists who have spent so much time in learning by trial and error and sharing, thank you, but surprised by the lack of actual specific research/info on this. It would help everyone tweak for the betterment of the hobby.....just a thought

 

[Koyfam16]

Check out some of Paul B's threads. He has made some great points about diets for fish.

 

[Charley]

Thanks Edge, like so many others already a BIG fan of Paul B! This is sort of what prompted me to get this started. The info is so confusing:

Paul B if I understand correctly, suggests feeding live foods mainly mostly black worms and clams with great results.

Prattreef kindly mentions the public aquariums will use all the above or similar in rotation....different from Paul but also with great results.

A Doc on the forum mentions fish eggs as being the best source of nutrition. Very logical. I eat a ton of eggs, no health problems

Why is this all so loosy goosy? Food goes to very heart of success, If the fish are not healthy does any other parameter matter?

I do not understand why gut bacteria has not been scientifically measured in each of the above and more? We spend thousands of dollars on our hobby, get the occasionally scolding because we do not do the best research before putting things or fish together. If we want to be a sustainable, then the we neeed the basic info to make it so. This is not about measuring so obsure undetectable trace mineral. It's about food!



Thanks

 

[oh207]

Pellets vs Blackworms vs Fish Roe vs Clams vs Frozen

IMO, no single food is best for our fish. A varied diet that includes each of these is what is the best food for fish. If I had to rank all of these, I would move Pellets to the back of the list and leave the rest in the order your listed.
When I first started the hobby I fed mostly pellets, 2-3 times a day. And my fish were happy, and even my clowns started spawning on only pellets. But as I read and learn more, I've learned that a varied diet is key to long term success and good health.

 

[atriz]

rotate. and make sure your blackworms are FRESH and cleaned well. remove white ones and never let cloudy water sit.

THERE IS A RISK of parasites with live blackworms. I had one take out a stingray once. -devastated-

 

[marrone]

I would move Pellets to the back of the list and leave the rest in the order your listed.

I'll think that you'll find that a lot of people and places that breed fish use pellets. Though you need to be more specific about which pellet, as there are many different kinds and brands, but you'll find that they probably need to be in front of the list not at the back.

 

[homegrowncichlid]

Also need to note that different foods provide different types of nutrients, just like us humans eating red meat beef (protein), chicken eggs (protein and fats), fruits (vitamins, sugars) etc.
So, lets see, white fish (proteins) oily tuna/salmon/cod fish (fats and protein), fish eggs (more fats), shellfish ie clams (trace minerals, proteins), seaweed (vitamins minerals), zooanthids and sponges (??), etc.

 

[Charley]

I agree with all thoughts mentioned. I just wonder why actual scientific research involving analyzing the bacteria in the stomach has not been done in a controlled environment to truly determine which "method" produces the most beneficial gut bacteria.

 

[prattreef]

I agree with all thoughts mentioned. I just wonder why actual scientific research involving analyzing the bacteria in the stomach has not been done in a controlled environment to truly determine which "method" produces the most beneficial gut bacteria.[/QUOTE

Why are you assuming gut bacteria is the most important factor in determining the efficacy of a food?

But to answer your question, research costs money and no one in the hobby routinely funds research, and scientists for the most part don't focus on hobby level concerns. I'm quite sure you can ferret out studies that have been done for big $$$$ food fish aquaculture that would be suggestive for the species we keep in the hobby, but I'm not sure why this is such a pressing matter. The truth is we have an unprecedented variety of high quality food options that have proven effective for long term care and health of most species of fish in the hobby. Given that we keep mixed species, with presumably similar but somewhat different natural diets, feeding a variety of things on a regular basis is the easiest way to ensure that individuals get what they need.

 

[marrone]

I'm sure that there has been plenty of research done regarding fish that they raise for food, so that they can grow them quicker, bigger, taste, and make resistant to certain types of diseases and such. Remember, the benefit that they want, or are looking for, growing fish for food, isn't always what is best for the fish.

 

[oh207]

I'll think that you'll find that a lot of people and places that breed fish use pellets. Though you need to be more specific about which pellet, as there are many different kinds and brands, but you'll find that they probably need to be in front of the list not at the back.

Quite correct. As I mentioned in my post, my clowns started spawning while they were only eating pellets. And specifically New Life Spectrum (NLS). I used to mix everything in an Ehiem autofeeder and program to feed 2-3 times a day. A majority of the pellets was NLS. But I also mix in Formula one, Sustainable Aquatics formula, Ocean Nutrition and IO chips.

While I'm sure that a lot of people and places that breed fishes use pellets, I am saying for my setup and my reef tank, pellets is now my last choice. I only started feeding frozen and live food after learning more of the benefits, and I'm not only referring to the nutritional benefits. I learn that pellets lead to poorer water conditions, (apparently higher nitrates?) so that was another reason for me cutting back on pellets.

IMO, what breeders feed broodstock and how often they need to feed compared to what we feed our reef are not quite the same. The feeding regimen that breeders follow would not be ideal for a reef tank. My aim with my tank is to find a proper balance of providing optimum nutrition while at the same time balancing nutrients.

 

[oh207]

I agree with all thoughts mentioned. I just wonder why actual scientific research involving analyzing the bacteria in the stomach has not been done in a controlled environment to truly determine which "method" produces the most beneficial gut bacteria.

I don't know whether or not such scientific investigations were ever done, I never bother to look. But I would say that before any such investigation is done, it would be necessary to first establish a theory and prove that gut bacteria in fish matters to health or better food digestion or absorption, or whatever. And then investigating causation vs correlation of whether one source of food is better than the other in leading to a healthier fish. Or maybe its not bacteria in the gut at all, maybe its just enzymes. Natural fauna/flora is important, but if I remember Biology correctly enzymes are what assist with breakdown and digestion of food. I don't even know if a fish digestive system is the same as ours, so I'm being hypothetical.

Maybe our fish food will evolve from having stuff that would enhance coloration (astaxin?), to having probiotics, to having enzyme supplements. Heck, we already have all sorts of Vitamins included already.

Some folks who read this will say its pure nuts, others will see that its just the course of evolving understanding of nutrition, or even see it as a good business opportunity. LRS is onto something, just look at his success in such a short time. BTW, I'm a fan of LRS.

 

[Charley]

I mentioned gut bacteria or beneficial bacteria only because it is "measurable" perhaps. there is the obvious outwardly observations: fish look healthy, great coloration, no diseases, breeding, etc.

It is absolutely not a pressing matter, but simply an interesting topic for me. Most " non sale" topics I find interesting and is what I enjoy the most about MR when they pop up. I just happened to have picked on food related type posts recently. This is what MR gets when they leave a message at the top suggesting I post a topic since I haven't in a while.

However you are a very,very seasoned hobbyist Take this MR experience from my perspective. I am new hobbyist, someones mentions MR as a great place for info, I jump on and now ....... confusion! Even from something as simple as feeding my fish

I read Paul B's posts, great guy and hobbyist and now I am ready to feed blackworms everyday, 3x a day and I will have very healthy fish with the prospect of seeing off the chart breeding behavior, so cool! But hold on, not so fast! Now I read Dr. Hirsh's posts and now I am searching for the best possible fish roe because seemingly in could make Paul B's feeding of blackworms seems likes child's play. But wait a minute, not so fast....

Seems like there is great success with all high quality pellets and my clowns can be breeding like rabbits! Ah so much easier......nope, not that easy....

Really potentially the best method is to use a variety of food just like the public aquariums....just wish what I new what that variety consisted of...more research! But maybe if they all switched to blackworms........just a thought

All observational and not a shred of scientific anything it seems. Ok we plunk a few grand to enjoy the hobby and we are experimenting as to what we feed our fish.....ok got it, thats part of the fun of the hobby sorting out mass confusion and deciding what works best for ourselves.

As far as the expense of research for the hobby, I guess I have no choice but to patiently wait for NASA to send some clownfish into space. I really did not think feeding a few fish separately in separate tanks the same meals every day for a few months and sending the poor buggers to a lab for stomach analysis required a gazillion $ but what do I know!

Thanks for listening and all the responses! All in good fun!

 

[prattreef]

Love the discussion Charley, not intending to discourage you from posting these kind of threads at all. We need more of them on MR! In the upcoming edition of Reefs Magazine Rich Ross discusses simple experiments hobbyists can undertake to move beyond anecdote. I'll be sure to post the link here when it goes live.

 

[Charley]

So cool that your clownfish are breeding! Must be awesome. I keep hoping for the same with my pair

I know you are striving for optimum nutrition. But how will you know? How will you make that determination? This goes to the heart of my point......how do any of us really know without any hard facts? Paul B. at least is that his end game is seems to be breeding condition of all in his tank. Would you consider this to be the same for you? Just curious..... Thanks!

 

[Charley]

Thanks Pratt! wasn't sure if I was going to banned for life on MR! Appreciate the thought of posting the link.

Just wait till next time MR says I haven't posted in a while

 

[Paul B]

As we found out, feeding pellets, blackworms or frozen foods can all be considered healthy to some extent. But it depends on how we describe health. Of course clownfish will breed by eating pellets. Clownfish will also breed by eating flakes. Many fish will not be able to do that but spawning, while a very good indicator of health is not the only thing we should care about.
Do your fish ever get sick? They should not. I believe that nutrition is not the only thing to look for in a food although it is very important of course. I want my fish to get their dose of live bacteria every day along with healthy food. IMO something live such as blackworms are more important for the live bacteria they contain than the actual nutrition (which I also feel is very good).
Human doctors are just now figuring out that that gut bacteria is what controls our immune system but with fish we are still living in the 70s. Sterility does not equate to health, just the opposite. We have also found out that using antibiotics, unless absolutely necessary causes the exact opposite thing that we were hoping for.
So I feel that not only should all our fish be spawning, but they should also be immune from almost every disease as they are in the sea.
Just my opinion of course.

 

[Charley]

Yes, Paul could be onto something after all Recent article....

http://www.army.mil/article/161643/...ute_conducts_MRE_study_to_improve_gut_health/