Miracle Mud. Is this stuff worth getting?
- Thread starter kmagyar
- Start date
the caulerpa is the filter the mud is suppose to add trace to feed the caulerpa. But I'm sure most tanks have enough trace or nutrients if you have fish and feed. They still recommend to use thier additives and to replace the mud often. The caulepa is the filter the mud is just sand which any sand will work
Just to add my 2 cents worth. I work in a pet store, which has a 75 gallon reef that has been set up for 15 years. For most of the time, it has been run on powerheads, and a protien skimmer. 8 monthe ago we decided to put ecosystem's miracle mud sump on the system. The first month was a little crazy with a 24 hr light source, lots of cyano, but after the system settled in, it really has worked wonders. Our water is crystal clear, corals are opening up larger than ever before. The only coral that wasn't was a finger leather that was sandwiched between a hammer and a pearl, once we gave it a little more room, it started thriving as well. The reason you don't need a skimmer is that as the calerpa grows, just like plants, it uses up the organic wastes that the fish are producing. There is only one species of calurpa that has been prohibited, because it is not a naturally occuring species on this coast, it origionated off the coast of austrailia, and was transported here by aquariums, with no natural predator, has taken over a lot of area, but if you stay away from that one, you will be fine. I can't find the article that lists it's name specifically, but it looks just like a feather, stay with the flat stranded kind, or the grape stuff and you'll do fine. We were also a little cynical about it's clame to improve fish health, we had a customer who brought in a red sea sailfin tang that was just about eaten away with HLLE, and after 2 weeks in our 75, there is almost no trace of it on him. I attribute that to the system, just regular healing, and removing him from the environment he was in would have taken much longer than 2 weeks. I think it's kind of funny that someone can claim to know what a substance is made of by looking at it under a microscope, much like trying to decipher what is on a cd by looking at the grooves. After 8 months of doing nothing but adding water for evaporation (we don't even feed anymore, with all the organisms growing in the sump), nitrates have leveled off at 2ppm. In the tank are the red sea sailfin, royal gramma, mandarin (which has been in there for 7 months, and a flame angel. I would say this stuff works. I'm sure there ae other systems that work just as well, but htis is totally hands off, and we haven't had any problems at all. The mud may be a bit pricey, but so is the entire hobby.
Just a question to those who use the MM Ecosystem without caulerpa. If you don't have a skimmer, and you don't grow macro algea, then how are you exporting nutrients? Everything you have ever put in your tank is still in there! What is happening to it? With a DSB the excepted practice is you will need to have nutrient export methods in place for a longterm success in your tank.
Yes, I can definitely say that I attribute my tank's success, and the success of a large majority of the reefkeepers in this country to the use of a deep sandbed. I can even attribute YOUR success to the use of a sandbed (because believe it or not, that's what you have in your refugium, a sandbed, the particle size is just much smaller, making it a "mudbed").
Before sandbeds, reefkeepers did not have much knowledge or understanding of the denitrification process. Nitrates would build up....do a water change. With a deep sandbed taking care of nitrification AND denitrification, that problem just vanished "like magic."
I can remember when THE most common problem that we would hear was "My nitrates are at 80 ppm." Boy, gone are those days, and thank goodness!
Slowly but surely reefkeepers are realizing that they don't need to rely on a special "filter" to maintain water quality, that instead, they should strive to mimic natural processes in their aquaria. Refugiums and deep sandbeds are all a part of this.
There's no miracle there.
HTH
James Wiseman
[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: jamesw ]
[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: jamesw ]
Before sandbeds, reefkeepers did not have much knowledge or understanding of the denitrification process. Nitrates would build up....do a water change. With a deep sandbed taking care of nitrification AND denitrification, that problem just vanished "like magic."
I can remember when THE most common problem that we would hear was "My nitrates are at 80 ppm." Boy, gone are those days, and thank goodness!
Slowly but surely reefkeepers are realizing that they don't need to rely on a special "filter" to maintain water quality, that instead, they should strive to mimic natural processes in their aquaria. Refugiums and deep sandbeds are all a part of this.
There's no miracle there.
HTH
James Wiseman
[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: jamesw ]
[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: jamesw ]
Hey guys, I personaly don't understand all the miracle mud bashing. I realy don't care what's in it. I don't call up Kent and ask them the exact chemical makeup of their buffer I use. I just use it. If it works, I keep using it. If it doesn't then I find something else. Are there other products that can achieve the same thing? Sure. After having many different reef tanks over the years, some berlin method, some modified berlin, plenum based systems, etc, etc it is never easy to pinpoint your sucess or your failures. We are current eco-system users and I must say we will never go back. Our current system is thriving. Although I cannot directly attribute this sucess to the mud, I will attribute it to the eco-system as a whole. It really is a filtration method much like Berlin being a method or the DSB approach. Remember that different systems perform in different ways. Is there a right way? Now how about my own question for all of you out there. Can any of you DSB users directly attribute your sucess to your DSB? Or is it really one piece of the puzzle in the whole system approach?
There's my 2 cents.
mzem
eco-system user and never going back
There's my 2 cents.
mzem
eco-system user and never going back
mzem":2sryiyi5 said:
It's Sodium Bicarbonate $20+-. Better known as Baking Soda <$2. Kent's kalkwasser $20+- is calcium hydroxide, A.K.A. pickling lime <$2.
mzem":2sryiyi5 said:
Actually, this is not an either/or question. Yes to both.
I just found a link here from a thread at ReefCentral. The last reply here looked like a good canidate for a reply. I'm surprised this thread died so quickly and was never revived.
Mark
- Location
- Long Island
:roll: After reading both articles by Mike Paletta about the MM System, I was not convinced to go with this method of filtration.
One was the fact that the there was alot of weekly water changes, the tank was a 400 gallon tank, and 10 gallons a week was being changed while the bottom of the tank was being cleaned.
The claim of trace elements being spared and constantly being added to the system through natural means, didn't really move me due to the fact that with so much water changing of course their is a constant supply of trace elements, with all the new salt water being added.
Another fact that Mike wrote was that in time the MM has to be replaced due to the MM has had the life giving elements removed through the life in the system.
My question is if the used MM is removed to replace it, what happens to the hobbyist system, the MM takes some time to become established, according to Mike's report.
And why do they sell Ecosystems trace elements? :lol: CaptiveReef
One was the fact that the there was alot of weekly water changes, the tank was a 400 gallon tank, and 10 gallons a week was being changed while the bottom of the tank was being cleaned.
The claim of trace elements being spared and constantly being added to the system through natural means, didn't really move me due to the fact that with so much water changing of course their is a constant supply of trace elements, with all the new salt water being added.
Another fact that Mike wrote was that in time the MM has to be replaced due to the MM has had the life giving elements removed through the life in the system.
My question is if the used MM is removed to replace it, what happens to the hobbyist system, the MM takes some time to become established, according to Mike's report.
And why do they sell Ecosystems trace elements? :lol: CaptiveReef
Question For MattM:
I am in Key West and am thinking of bringing back some sand or mud for my tank. Where do you suggest I collect it from, or where did you collect yours from? What should I look for, white sandy sand, or darker grey silty looking stuff?
How quickly should it be added to my tank?
Thanks!
Louey
I am in Key West and am thinking of bringing back some sand or mud for my tank. Where do you suggest I collect it from, or where did you collect yours from? What should I look for, white sandy sand, or darker grey silty looking stuff?
How quickly should it be added to my tank?
Thanks!
Louey
Miracle mud is a waste, plain and simple in my book. Anyone who got great results with the $9 buck per pound "mud" that needs to be replaced often can get the same results with stuff from their own back yard. There was a thread awhile back where the contents of the "mud" analyzed, and it was found to be "common" dirt from what I remember. Either way the directions for the system gives it away, replace the "mud" when its organics are used up and use lots of chemicals from Ecosystem for best results. Just another method for making money. How bout their $700 dollar sump setup?? Wow, what a joke, go call up Jeff T. over at Lifereef and have him build you a full filtration(sump,skimmer, pumps etc) setup for the same money. :roll:
I can only say what I know. I have used the ecosystem method for a while now and am happy. Other products, even sand, or average yard mud, may perform the same, I don't know or care. What I do care about is that I have never added trace, or any other, elements to my system since switching to the ecosystem method. All I add is calcium and alkalinity. The caulerpa ) only razor) in the fuge grows like a weed. I can't say that the mud is doing this and would probably say it is not. The caulerpa is most likely just living off the nutrient rich water. My water quality has been excellent with no yellowing whatsoever.
As said before, I don't cre where the mud comes from. I couldn't care less is it has ocean stuff in it or whether is has animal dung. I do care as to wheher or not it works. My system looks great.
I can find nowhere in the directions that it states to use there mud and use lots of chemicals from Ecosystem for best results. I may be wrong, but I didn't see that statement. I did however, speak with an ecosystem rep, and was told that I do not need to use any other additives, even ecosystems, except calcium and alk.
I've read lots of threads on the ecosystem method and hear quite frequently that it is junk. However, when questioned further, I have been told that they have not personally used this system themselves. Believe what you may. It is much like testing drugs with a placebo. If it makes you feel better and makes you believe, more power to you. Call me an idiot, I'm happy.
As said before, I don't cre where the mud comes from. I couldn't care less is it has ocean stuff in it or whether is has animal dung. I do care as to wheher or not it works. My system looks great.
I can find nowhere in the directions that it states to use there mud and use lots of chemicals from Ecosystem for best results. I may be wrong, but I didn't see that statement. I did however, speak with an ecosystem rep, and was told that I do not need to use any other additives, even ecosystems, except calcium and alk.
I've read lots of threads on the ecosystem method and hear quite frequently that it is junk. However, when questioned further, I have been told that they have not personally used this system themselves. Believe what you may. It is much like testing drugs with a placebo. If it makes you feel better and makes you believe, more power to you. Call me an idiot, I'm happy.
You say Miracle Mud is a waste in your book. Which book would this be? Have you run this system before that would make you an expert? I am only speaking for myself and the results I have achieved running this system. The word probably should be a dead giveaway that I don't know for sure. What I do know is that the system runs great and my tank looks better than it ever has, including running a DSB that everyone swears by.
The problem I hear is that too many people badmouth something they have no clue about. I'm not saying that you specifically have no clue, but there are many who comment and have never tried the system themselves.
There are many ways of doing things with probably none being the right way.
The reason I am using the Miracle Mud is that it came with the system as purchased. It would be very stupid of me to go by another product or more sand to put into the fuge with this already included. Therefore, I don't see it as a waste as you would have it.
Anyone can come over to my place and see my reef and then make arguments all they want.
It was also earlier said in a post that you need to replace the mud often. If every 2 years is often, then maybe the're in the wrong hobby.
In conclusion, don't knock what you don't know. I've never met anyone, so far, that has tried the ecosystem method and didn't like it. I'm not sure what the secret is if any, I just say it works.
With comments like yours, I can see banned from RC.
The problem I hear is that too many people badmouth something they have no clue about. I'm not saying that you specifically have no clue, but there are many who comment and have never tried the system themselves.
There are many ways of doing things with probably none being the right way.
The reason I am using the Miracle Mud is that it came with the system as purchased. It would be very stupid of me to go by another product or more sand to put into the fuge with this already included. Therefore, I don't see it as a waste as you would have it.
Anyone can come over to my place and see my reef and then make arguments all they want.
It was also earlier said in a post that you need to replace the mud often. If every 2 years is often, then maybe the're in the wrong hobby.
In conclusion, don't knock what you don't know. I've never met anyone, so far, that has tried the ecosystem method and didn't like it. I'm not sure what the secret is if any, I just say it works.
With comments like yours, I can see banned from RC.
WIth comments like mine? People fear having their own words challenged by others, that is why I was banned. Because I am willing to speak up and question ideals and opinions, whether I am right or wrong. If you feel that I should be banned for these feelings, I think you may be in the wrong country. People all cry about civil rights being encroached upon when it threatens them, but when they open a public board for communication they are the first ones to shut down all beliefs,opinions,facts that they feel does not correlate to their own ways.
Anyway, back to the subject of Miraclemud, I have in fact seen it "tried" and used in applications on quite a few systems here. BUt miraclemud is the gimmick, the item to try and set apart one company from the rest, its a well known used tactic by companies to try and distinguish their products from their competitors. WHat is really being sold is the low flow refugium. Whether it be a hang on refugium, or their new sump refugium, the mud is what they try and use to differntiate their product line. I have many refugiums that grow all forms of macro algaes, whether it be based on mud,sand its all the same form of nutrient export and recycling. BUt you are still givin "instructions" on what to do with your "miraclemud refugium setup" which can easily be accomplished without the mud itself. A few folks over here who bought the system er gimmick, found that their systems were unaffected when changing out the mud for an equal amount of sand/silt from other people's systems sump or DSB. Even you yourself said the mud probably isnt the reason for your own sucess. And you probably already know that you could have gotten the same results without it.
Anyway, back to the subject of Miraclemud, I have in fact seen it "tried" and used in applications on quite a few systems here. BUt miraclemud is the gimmick, the item to try and set apart one company from the rest, its a well known used tactic by companies to try and distinguish their products from their competitors. WHat is really being sold is the low flow refugium. Whether it be a hang on refugium, or their new sump refugium, the mud is what they try and use to differntiate their product line. I have many refugiums that grow all forms of macro algaes, whether it be based on mud,sand its all the same form of nutrient export and recycling. BUt you are still givin "instructions" on what to do with your "miraclemud refugium setup" which can easily be accomplished without the mud itself. A few folks over here who bought the system er gimmick, found that their systems were unaffected when changing out the mud for an equal amount of sand/silt from other people's systems sump or DSB. Even you yourself said the mud probably isnt the reason for your own sucess. And you probably already know that you could have gotten the same results without it.
You said yourself that you have seen it tried. That was not my question. My question is, have you tried it yourself?
It doesn't matter if it works better or not. If you purchase the ecosystem, why on earth would you not use the enclosed mud, but instead go buy something else? I'm not sure I understand your argument.
I have just had a new fuge built and will be installing this week. Am I going out to buy Miracle Mud? No.. I will use an alternative substrate because it is cheaper.
As far as being banned, and should be living in another country... Everyone has a right on this or any other board until such time as that person is deemed to be irresponsible or rude in there comments. I don't know why you were banned, but I don't believe that it was due to you just having a different opinion. If that was the case there would be very few people that contribute to the forum. Keyword "contribute"
There are new reefers coming to this forum as well as RC on a daily basis. What they need is respect and facts. Not cutdowns and baseless inuendos (SP). You have bashed Miracle Mud to the ground as well as those who use it. Why are you so against the use of Miracle Mud? Does the use hurt you in some way? Can't you just accept that not everyone sees eye-to-eye with you? If you have proof of bad results, let's see it.
I can highly recommend to anyone the use of the Ecosystem method. The proof is in the results.
It doesn't matter if it works better or not. If you purchase the ecosystem, why on earth would you not use the enclosed mud, but instead go buy something else? I'm not sure I understand your argument.
I have just had a new fuge built and will be installing this week. Am I going out to buy Miracle Mud? No.. I will use an alternative substrate because it is cheaper.
As far as being banned, and should be living in another country... Everyone has a right on this or any other board until such time as that person is deemed to be irresponsible or rude in there comments. I don't know why you were banned, but I don't believe that it was due to you just having a different opinion. If that was the case there would be very few people that contribute to the forum. Keyword "contribute"
There are new reefers coming to this forum as well as RC on a daily basis. What they need is respect and facts. Not cutdowns and baseless inuendos (SP). You have bashed Miracle Mud to the ground as well as those who use it. Why are you so against the use of Miracle Mud? Does the use hurt you in some way? Can't you just accept that not everyone sees eye-to-eye with you? If you have proof of bad results, let's see it.
I can highly recommend to anyone the use of the Ecosystem method. The proof is in the results.
I bash miracle mud because of what it is. A GIMMICK. At $8.99 per pound, or whatever it is, its a gimmick, pure and simple.
I am sure you can "recommend" the method as it has been around alot longer than "miracle mud" has. But the point is, miracle mud isnt needed for the results, as you yourself have stated. So back to the point of the topic.
I am sure you can "recommend" the method as it has been around alot longer than "miracle mud" has. But the point is, miracle mud isnt needed for the results, as you yourself have stated. So back to the point of the topic.
I have been using it before it the company was concieved. Its called a refugium, and in the refugium macro algaes, pods, and other beneficial fauna grow untouched to help export waste. I didnt need another "Mark Weiss" campaign to get me to believe in the idea either.
Part of the whole point, I wouldnt recommend anybody to buy an Ecosystem setup. You can buy a refugium setup for less than half the price to get the same results. Hence why would I recommend something rediculously overpriced?? WIth the money saved someone could buy other things for their reef setup, like livestock etc.
Your not going out to buy more mud?? ANd you just had a custom built refugium?? Gee it sounds like you are now doing what I have stated all along, go out and build/buy a refugium WITHOUT wasteing money on something that is nothing more than a gimmick. Remember these are your words backing up what I stated. I am just quoting your statements.
Keyword is "contribute". Exactly, and I am contributing knowledge on how someone can save alot of money and bypass a marketing gimmick and still get the same results. If you had 2 systems, one priced twice as high as the otherone, but both giving similiar results, wouldnt you want to be informed?
I never bashed anybody but the company itself. I stated that miraclemud is a "joke". It is a joke.Its a marketing scam in my book. Its proven that you can get the same results without the gimmick. And the results have been around alot longer than miraclemud.
Again Im not knocking the method,and there is no "secret" as to why it works as myself along with many other people have been using a "refugium" long before miraclemud rose from the grave...............hmmm, dont rats infest graves? :twisted:
Sponsor Reefs
We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.
Click here to sponsor $10:
