Miracle Mud. Is this stuff worth getting?

[Kajjan]

"Miracle Dump" is about the funniest thing I've seen in a while. My feeling is, listen to the pros. The people who have been doing it the longest (not me!!) probably have the most valuable opinion. I'll undercut "Miracle Dump" and sell my "Miracle Gin" for only $1 a lb. Makes your corals grow faster. Hey, if you haven't tried it on your own sytem, you can't knock it.

And who are the pros?

 

[Kajjan]

why don't they start diggin and sellin?

maybe because Matt and Tom have profesional integrity?

Is it professional integrity not to sell something that works?

 

[Kajjan]

..........
What are the lies about? I must have missed something there. Do you mean what they say the mud consists of? It doesn't bother me. It can be your backyard dirt or anything else. If it works then it's totally ok with me. And I'm willing to pay that money to get something that works that well. But, if it turns out not to be working I'll be disapointed of course and then I've learned that lesson. If it is just backyard dirt as some guys says in the various forums, why don't they start diggin and sellin?

Yes, you have missed the point complety.
Who said it does not work? Not I. The problem is for a small fraction of the cost, I can have something that work just as well if not better, and not support people with questionable, to me at least, integrety.
There are retailers who would refuse to sell this stuff. Maybe to them, money is not everything. Obviously, to other it is. There are at last count several brands claiming to have various 'muds' on the market.

Minh

In Europe there are not any brands on the market when it comes to "muds". I don't think I've missed the point that much. You say it works. That's the point to me. And if I want to spend that money on that, well then it's up to me, right? It is about supply and demand. Unless you live in a communist country, but last time I checked US is not. So, as long as I don't beleive my backyard dirt will work I'll try something else, and if that is the Miracle Mud so let it be. I don't know what your backyard is made of but mine will sure as hell not be suitable.

 

[Kajjan]

Kajjan, I have used back yard dirt in my Freshwater planted tank with success, in fact, much better then LFS sand. it's not the fact it(MM) does not work, but the part about selling cheap dirt, repackaging it with a fancy name, and charging people an arm and a leg, yet exaggerated the power of the dirt cheap product (What difference they have from companies packaging sugar water and claiming them as "Reef essential"?). In many tanks of mine, I used regular sand with caulerpa. Same result if not better.

Yes, I was an ex-MM user many many many years ago. So I think that makes my statements worth something since I did use MM as well as regular sand, live mud, live mud + regular sand, and now Southdown growing caulerpa. The only thing I want to make clear is that there is absolutely no difference IMO between growing caulerpa with MM or any other sugarfine or silty subtrate. In fact, I've even experimented iron tablet in live sand trying to boost caulerpa growth.....(Don't bother trying that, hair algae and diatom responded much faster to the iron releases then caulerpa......)

Ok, so you are actually on of the critics that has really tried it out. Well, that I respect.

 

[dizzy]

Kajjan,

You seem like a pretty smart guy. I hope you can use the mud in a situation where you will be able to tell if it is actually the mud that causes results, or if it is a combinatation of factors that might effect positive change. Please explain your current setup. Do you already have a DSB? Give the mud a fair and accurate test and please let us know your results. I personally haven't tried it. We have a saying here in the South: "If it ain't broke don't fix it"

 

[Minh Nguyen]

In Europe there are not any brands on the market when it comes to "muds". I don't think I've missed the point that much. You say it works. That's the point to me. And if I want to spend that money on that, well then it's up to me, right? It is about supply and demand. Unless you live in a communist country, but last time I checked US is not. So, as long as I don't beleive my backyard dirt will work I'll try something else, and if that is the Miracle Mud so let it be. I don't know what your backyard is made of but mine will sure as hell not be suitable.

Certainly here in the US, there are a few brands selling various mud for reef tank.
I think you are not being fair here. I am not forcing anyone not to use 'muds'. I am answer a question here according to my experience. One does not have to experience some thing before we qualify to comment on it. Information is what this is all about. Why are you criticizing me for proving information to new reefer? Seem to me, your criticism fit you the most. Without personally experience it, I hope you know that jumping off a 10 stories high building would most likely result in your death. My view will give balance to the information the thread starter needed to make informed decision.

Why don't you think your back yard sand would not work? Have you tried it in your tank? I have added 2 inches of mud from the Corpus Christi bay to my tank's refugium. I did this not because any special chemical properties of the mud, but to diversify the population of my tank creatures. Unless your dirt have nasty chemical pollutants in it, it will be fine for your tank. Many people, myself included, have use silica sand without any problem. There is nothing special about the MM. IME any sand medial would be fine for a tank as long as it have nothing significantly dissolves and contaminate the water column. The finer the sand, the smaller the amount needed to provide anaerobic condition required. Also the smaller the particle, the slower the water flow required so the sand will not cloud up the tank.

The MM system refugium is nothing more than a place where one growth macro algae to export nutrients. Any deep sand bed with adequate light will do as well. The finer the sand, the smaller the amount needed. You really can just get any own sand anywhere and it will do fine for tank IF it does not have pollutant in it.

Like I said before, you can spend or waste your money anyway you want. MM will work, but you can get lots of things that will work just as well if not better. The important factors here are adequate area and light for macro algae growth, and adequate sand volume for natural nitrate reduction. I just want to keep some poor novice reefers form spending lots of money on things that are not needed.

 

[SPC]

Posted by Minh:

I hope you know that jumping off a 10 stories high building would most likely result in your death.

-I would like to hear from someone who has direct experience doing this please :lol: .
Steve

 

[Kajjan]

Without personally experience it, I hope you know that jumping off a 10 stories high building would most likely result in your death. quote]
I have experience in jumping, so I can calculate what will happen if I jump from that 10-stories building. I have no experience of "muds", so I try it. And thereafter I will speak up about it.

 

[Minh Nguyen]

I have experience in jumping, so I can calculate what will happen if I jump from that 10-stories building. I have no experience of "muds", so I try it. And thereafter I will speak up about it.

I have experiences in reefkeeping and experiences in various type of sand, both CaCO3 base and other non-Ca base sand. I KNOW that MM will work but I also KNOW that other sand will also works and cost much less.
Kajjan,
Seem that we go round and round saying the same thing.
I agree that the MM will work. Do you dispute that?
I also think that it cost too much. Do you dispute that?
If you don't dispute either of the above, it seem that we agree.

I KNOW that other sand will work just as well if not better. You don't know that while I do. If you want to spend money to get MM, go ahead. Why don't you want me tell other reefers that there are alternative that are much cheaper and work just as well?
I think I said enough.

Peace
Minh Nguyen

 

[Kajjan]

I have experience in jumping, so I can calculate what will happen if I jump from that 10-stories building. I have no experience of "muds", so I try it. And thereafter I will speak up about it.

I have experiences in reefkeeping and experiences in various type of sand, both CaCO3 base and other non-Ca base sand. I KNOW that MM will work but I also KNOW that other sand will also works and cost allot less.
Kajjan,
Seem that we go round and round saying the same thing.
I agree that the MM will work. Do you dispute that?
I also think that it cost too much. Do you dispute that?
If you don't dispute either of the above, it seem that we agree.

I KNOW that other sand will work just as well if not better. You don't know that while I do. If you want to spend money to get MM, go ahead. Why don't you want me tell other reefers that there are alternative that are much cheaper and work just as well?
I think I said enough.

Peace
Minh Nguyen

Yeah, you're right. My first message in this matter was based on an observation i made: Generally speaking I found two groups of authors on the bulletin board. One was very critical and even sarcastic about the MM and they had little or no first hand experience of it. The other was representing the actual users of it and they seemed very satisfied. And from the outside it looked strange to me. Why were these critics putting in so much energy and effort into convincing the satisfied users that either it didn't work or at least there were other products as good as the MM on the market? That was what I was trying to find. And then I wasn't aware of that there were other brands on the market in the US. The only thing I've found available for me, living in Europe, is the Miracle Mud. I don't mind if there's someone getting rich on a product that works and makes me happy. (And, no, I don't mean drugdealers.) And they seem to be better on marketing than those others marketing the other brands.
So, we finally came to an agreement. That's good!
I will let you know what I think of the MM when I've had it operating for some months or so.
By the way, really nice pictures of your tanks. Very Well Done!
Peace.

 

[Kajjan]

Kajjan,

You seem like a pretty smart guy. I hope you can use the mud in a situation where you will be able to tell if it is actually the mud that causes results, or if it is a combinatation of factors that might effect positive change. Please explain your current setup. Do you already have a DSB? Give the mud a fair and accurate test and please let us know your results. I personally haven't tried it. We have a saying here in the South: "If it ain't broke don't fix it"

Thanks. I'm switching over from a fish-only tank to a reef tank right now, and therefore I will not be in the situation where I can say: I've added the MM and now I'm successful with keeping corals therefore it must be because of the MM. I've had reeftanks before with various success and I've never had any success with stony corals. But you learn all the time and understand more and more and you gather more and more tools to use. Beside the MM I will also add a calciumreactor and better light. So if it becomes a success I will never be able to tell what contributed most. But at that point I probably will not care and will just be a happy reefkeeper saying: If it ain't broke don't fix it!
Cheers!

 

[Minh Nguyen]

........I will let you know what I think of the MM when I've had it operating for some months or so.
By the way, really nice pictures of your tanks. Very Well Done!
Peace.

Kajjan,
I also challenge you to use your back yard sand to set up a small tank. To be fair, you must try to succeed, must have adequate light for the coral, you must seed the system with fauna, you must have a lighted refugium to growth macro-algae and to harvest it to remove nutrient from your tank. I know that you have not try to do this even if you stated that your back yard dirt is not suitable for a reef tank. If your yard dirt is full of organic, you must wait some time until the macro algae mop up those nutrients before adding coral. You will find that this will work just as well as any medium. I am willing to bet that there are no significant toxins in your garden that will cause your tank to crash.
If you do this, like I did, then you will understand why I speak up like I do. BTW, my back yard is the Corpus Christi Bay. It is full of mud from Olso River, all silica base sand with very fine dust that took a while to get my tank clear up(several days).

Minh Nguyen

 

[MattM]

My first message in this matter was based on an observation i made: Generally speaking I found two groups of authors on the bulletin board. One was very critical and even sarcastic about the MM and they had little or no first hand experience of it.

F.Y.I. We (who you originally replied to) have had a Miracle Mud system running in our store for almost 2 years. We have also had conversations with the manufacturer about the system and had the product professionally analyzed.

Our criticisms of the product are answers to questions like the title of this thread: "Is this stuff worth getting?"

We believe the answer is NO because 1) we have not found any effects of this system (a caulerpa based refugium) that could be attributed to the product - it works just as well with sand, and 2) there are significant levels of metals, heavy metals, and silica in the product that we believe should not be put into a reef, and 3) the marketing claims made by the manufacturer cast serious and significant doubts on their integrity.

P.S. The product analysis can be found here.

 

[tazdevil]

More than 60% quartz!?! Sounds like a rock quarry. Hmmm, high levels of barium, I need to check the barium we use in CT scanning and find the percentage. Also noted high levels of titanium, nice metal for making bulletproof cockpits (the "tankbuster" jet's pilot sits basically in a titanium bathtub for protection from shells), not sure you want much of that in a saltwater tank.

 

[Kajjan]

So, MattM, that's the kind of answers I was looking for in the first place. I guess I missed the first part of the discussion of this topic and came in late when there was only sarcasm left in the arguments against the MM. I wonder what the manufacturer, The Ecosystem, said when you were discussing this with them? What were their comments on the substances found?

 

[danmhippo]

I would assume Ecosystem would reply "we apologize, but that's the trade secret part that we do not comment on to the public......"

Where is ecosystem based at? May be that would explain the high quartz content, and may also further indicate if that is just something they dug up in their pit?

 

[danmhippo]

I also wonder if you take different sample batches of MM under analysis, if the result varies from batch to batch, it would be an indication that MM is an non-formulated product to explain the content inconsistencies.

 

[liquid]

FWIW, if a person were to try using plain old dirt, I'd actually recommend someone getting some good topdirt or potting soil that is free of any added chemicals or fertilizers. Many FW planted people use plain old backyard, potting soil, topdirt, etc for their planted tanks and it works marvelously. However, terrestrial dirt in a reef tank does seem kinda strange... :wink:

Shane

 

[danmhippo]

Shane, I would be hesitant to use top soil as they are high on organic contents, and may be too light in an aquarium setting. Unless you want to use top soil first in the bottom layer, and weigh it down with sand to prevent them floating up in to the currents. But even that, you may not solve the organic decomposing part of the problem.

I dunno, but maybe just me. What I have used before is digging up shovel-full of back yard dirt into a bucket, rigorously rinse it to get rid of all floating particles and let it sit for a few days with daily water changes. At the end of the week, sieve throu the contect and get rid of all large particles before using the silty portion in my planted aquarium.

 

[liquid]

Even then tho there is a lot of organic matter in the dirt you dug even after sifting. Here's a very good book on using dirt in a freshwater planted tank:

Ecology of the Planted Aquarium: A Practical Manual and Scientific Treatise for the Home Aquarist by Diana L. Walstad

If I remember right, Diana basically stated the same thing that you did on how she treated her dirt that she used: got all the 'floaties' out and then screened it and let it soak for a while before she used it. That's actually the whole idea behind using dirt from the back yard is the high iron content and the organic content: microorganisms break down the organics thereby respirating CO2 which the plants feed off of. Also the suppressed pH makes iron readily available for the plants. It's been over a year since I read the book but it was the best book I've ever found on using terrestrial soils in an aquarium...

Shane