I'm so tired of paying full retail!

[davelin315]

The only thing I discussed with them about shipping was doing it F.O.B. since I live 5 minutes from O'Hare, and I'm looking for bonnethead pups (tiny social hammerheads), which they told me they birth in their holding tanks and then send out immediately while they're used to being cramped in small spaces. I think the picture is actually from a Discovery channel show, the one where they free dive, and I agree, it's not very responsible, which is why I don't watch that show very often - it bothers me that they are messing with these fish as much as they do and not observing them, although I am being a bit hypocritical in that I want to put one in a pond in my house. As far as how reputable they are, I don't know, haven't ever heard anything about them, and so I think I'm going to be the guinea pig. I do want to sign up for one of their collection charters, though, that sounds really cool.

 

[danmhippo]

Oh, people, Why don't you quit your job now and get a $100K loan and open yourself a fish store? STOP MOANING! You think the markup is so ridiculous and these LFS are getting SO RICH, Go open one yourself. Stop B*^*hing here.

Do you know how many other expenses are out there in addition to bad batches of fish to be received and the cost of them would never recover? Do you know how many new fishes arrived at the store (or picked up from wholesale) do not make it on the first 2 days? Do you know how many Ahole customer out there like all of us that B&^ch and moan to them about the price of the fish?

Let's get this thread closed. I am sick and tired of reading these LFS bashing thread running a hundred pages long. And all of you think the markup is so lucritive, GO OUT THERE AND GET YOURSELF A NEW FISH STORE RUNNING. Let us hear some good news of how rich you get! ROFLMAO.....

 

[Chucker]

I'll put a few very short comments here....

I also have seen my LFS' wholesale lists. Never forget that this is just the price for the fish, and nothing else. It has nothing to do with shipping, box charges, live arrival, rent, electricity, or taxes.

$39 peppermint shrimp- IMVHO, that price would only be paid by some who either a) doesn't give a rodent's behind about money, or b) someone who hasn't done a lick of pricing research, and deserves to pay such for being ignorant.

This dicussion started to get a little personal earlier, but seems to be getting back on track. I hope it can stay that way, because I hate closing threads with good dialogue because folks couldn't stick to the issues.

 

[monkeyboy]

Those prices are only for damsels though, and also illustrates that fish don't cost 3 cents! I'd like to see that 40 cent angel though! But davelin315, you still haven't said what an appropriate markup would be on one of the above 30 cent damsels. But don't forget to take into considderation the freight, holding systems (initial cost, electricity to run, salt for w/c), feeding, DOA's, people to talk to you about them and to care for them. Fish aren't like drygoods where normal markups apply, they have to have a larger markup to cover costs.

 

[faztaz]

I don't wanna get all tangled up in this mess but I remember watching a discovery channel show last year which was on the aquarium trade. Unfortunately it was only about fresh water fish but the neon tetras which go from $1 - $3 in local stores will only get a local fisherman less than an American Penny. I think he has to catch a couple thousand to get a bag of rice. A stingray which over here will sell for $50+ will get him about $1. So there is definately a markup. Of course there are other expenses involved but as in any other industry there is always someone making a nice profit (if not the LFS then their supplier). I do know of a wholesaler in FL who many years ago sold me about $120 of fish which would have cost me well over $1000 in my local petstore. Advice from the local fish store is always worth an extra $$ here and there but SOME stores do charge a whole lot for their "advice".
_________________
Stock paintball

 

[BCReefer]

I have no experience in buying fish but I have done a fair amount of job costing and there are so many variables to consider. Here is a quick example.

Lease/Rent
Electricity
Taxes
Wages $$$
Equipment
Phone
Fax
Website
Dead inventory

People are always very surprised on how much it cost to run a business, plus the hundreds of extra hours that an owner must do, even if he is not open. If you took just the above bills and add them together and for arguments sake, say it came to $15,000 per month. Imagine how many fish/corals that the store would have to sell just to cover the costs not to mention a 15% contingency fund to cover future upgrades.

I think everyone agrees that it comes to homework, homework and homework. If you don’t check around then you get what you pay for.

 

[monkeyboy]

Before it dissappears for another few weeks, i think it should be dumped in the archives!

 

[faztaz]

In defense of LFS owners I did read somewhere that the average income was around $40K. You people do have to remember there are the honest store owners who prices are fair and advice is solid then there are those who are only out to make a quick buck. The don't tell you the truth ("oh you need this filter", or "sure these fish are compatible (lionfish and small damsel) but we can't guarantee anything"). Unfortunately too many of the nicer stores are closing in my area. There was one guy about 8 years ago when I was new to the hobby who was one of the nicest guys I met. He felt so bad that if I fish died he would refund you the difference (with a water change) up to 2 weeks. I had to turn down his offers to replace my lost fish many times because I felt he was so nice he was running himself out of business.
_________________
Ferrari 612 Scaglietti

 

[Len]

Dave,

I still don't see what provocaked your ill-tempered response. Personally, I would have handled my response in a more civil manner then had, but to each his own. As was mentioned, lighten up

I live in Los Angeles, the mecca of Pacific wholesalers. Please feel free to send me a price list that I have not seen ....

The figures you presented are not only wrong; they're extremely wrong (displaced by magnitudes of 10's to 100's!). Though "no clue" may have been a tad harsh, it was wholly acccurate in regards to your proposed profit margin.

 

[Len]

Let me put Ikaras price list into perspective. Landed prices of transhipped goods are much higher then what those figures reflect. The logistics of getting hundreds of pounds of fish from the Coral/China Sea to the US with proper permits is not a cheap endeavour.

Few LFS have access to collector transhipments. The bulk of LFS purchase are from US wholesalers because of the many inherent and unsurmountable (financial and logistical) problems associated with transhipping. Needless to say, US wholesale prices are much higher then these listed.

Lastly, there are no DOA policies for transhipped organisms. US wholesalers will insure shipments to LFS up to a set mortality rate; Guess who is responsible for the rest of the DOAs? The LFS. Therefore, in order for the LFS to stay out of the red, these undisclosed costs must be passed on us, the consumers.

Posting such a price list is highly misleading. It's like saying the material cost for a wrist watch is only $5, so they'd be crazy to charge $50 for the finished product.

Again, this is an open market. Whatever the market will bare, the market will charge. With respect to demand side economics, none of the LFS are "overcharging."

[ September 06, 2001: Message edited by: Leonard ]

 

[swreefer]

I'll jump in.
Has anyone noticed a trend with some of the LFS?
I see some that used to offer good service and have reasonable prices. After time, they start to let the store slide a little. Don't clean the tanks as much, don't do regular water changes like they used to, etc. Then the prices are increased (sometimes dramatically). It seems to me that (at least the ones by me) the better the store, the better the prices. The neglected stores typically charge a LOT more. I think there is a definite corelation between how the store is kept versus the price they charge. With bad conditions, they lose livestock. They in turn raise prices to compensate.
Here is an example.
Clean LFS charges $50 for a flame angel. Down the road at the dirty LFS they charge $90 for the flame angel.
Here's another one.
Clean LFS charges $375 for a 75 gallon tank, stand, and strip light. Down the raod at the dirty LFS they charge $900 for the same setup.
It also depends upon the clientele. If a store has people who can drop loads of cash shopping there, they will charge $20 for a damsel while a store in a different neighborhood may charge $5 for the same damsel.

BTW, if anyone wants to see a store that totally rips off it's customers, come to CT and drop by House of Fins in Greenwich. If you want a yellow tang, expect to pay $60 for it.

 

[davelin315]

To all who have not read my thread and think I am bashing LFSs. I AM NOT. It is unfortunate that everyone thinks this is what I am doing, because nowhere in my post did I say that all LFSs are evil. I do have a problem with some of the prices in stores, and when I do, I don't buy those items. If any of you out there don't believe some of the markups I am talking about exist, I will post one of the price lists that I am talking about on my web site. It is about a year and a half old, and it's prices are much higher than the one that I am still looking for, but it will show you that the original price is very low for most of the fish and inverts we cherish in our hobby. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES AM I SAYING THAT ALL LFS ARE RIPPING US OFF! I HAVE YET TO SAY THAT THESE PRICES ARE THE ONES WE SHOULD BE PAYING FOR OUR FISH, AND THAT A MARKUP IS NOT JUSTIFIED!

By the way, monkeyboy, I think that a reasonable price to pay for a damsel is around $3-$4, and I have paid as much as $5, or for some more unusual ones, $10. However, I would never buy a yellowtail damsel for $10, as that is downright ridiculous IMO.

Addressing Leonard, I was offended by the tone of the post that was directed at me by JennM. I responded in my own way, so it is not really any of your business how I do it. If you read her post as not being insulting towards me, so be it, I didn't. I still think you have a lot of valuable advice to give on this bb, and I often read your posts and learn from them, however, if you ever decided to attack me and tell me that I had no clue and basically call me an ignorant fool, then I'd respond the same way to you, but you don't, so I haven't, although you're coming remarkably close to it by accusing me of overreacting to her post and how it addressed me.

Price List


Keep in mind, this is not even the price list I was speaking of before, it is another one, and I will post the other one as soon as I find it. As far as how these prices do or do not apply to our hobby, judge for yourself, despite knowing how much fish cost to buy from the wholesaler, I still do it, because I know that the cost of getting them here from there justifies a huge markup as does the overhead on stores and the advice that good LFSs hand out.

By the way, Chucker (and please do not interpret any of this as a flame towards you, it is not), I agree with you that a peppermint shrimp is not worth $39.00 and anyone who buys it deserves to pay that much, but that is what is being charged at one of my better LFSs as far as knowledge and quality of livestock, and they are making these sales frequently because they are not always ethical about the way they sell their livestock (I have seen people walking out with 10 fish at once without them even asking what size tank they have and warning them about overstocking and causing a cycle). If you don't believe what I am saying about that price, call them up yourself and ask, and while you're at it, ask about some of their other prices on some corals. I'm sure you will be very shocked to see what they are charging, and getting, on some of their stock.

$39.00 Peppermint Shrimp

At this point, I will try and "behave" and hopefully, people's skepticism towards what I have said will begin to diminish as I provide proof of what I am saying and I will no longer be personally attacked.

Finally, again, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES AM I SAYING THAT THE ORIGINAL PRICE FOR A FISH IS PERTINENT TO THE MAJORITY OF LFS AS I BELIEVE THAT THE MARKUP IS JUSTIFIED FOR THE MOST PART, BUT THERE ARE SOME MARKUPS THAT ARE RIDICULOUS! THAT IS MY ONLY POINT!

[ September 07, 2001: Message edited by: davelin315 ]

 

[llowwelll]

I have to agree with Leonard. Leonard said the market will pay what the market can bear. I had posted earlier here in this thread ranting about high prices being self-defeating. I used the example of a lfs here in NJ charging $22.99 for a 50-gal bag of Instant Ocean salt. No way would I pay that. Another, much nicer/cleaner lfs here charges $14.99 for the same salt. I would pay that and I did pay that. The lfs charging $22.99 lost all the money it could have gotten from me because it charged such a high price. I, as a consumer, cannot bear to pay such an inflated price for that salt. The market, such as it is in this case, is simply a conglomeration of hundreds or thousands of similar consumer decisions to buy or not to buy at a certain price. In my particular case, it was self-defeating for that lfs to charge $22.99 for that salt as I would guess it was for the market as a whole. By greedily overcharging in the beginning, that particular lfs loses revenue on that salt. That lfs, by the way, doesn't seem to be doing very well. It's tanks are dirty and the place just oozes nastiness. On the other hand, not all lfs's are similarly greedy. The lfs I mentioned that charges $14.99 for the salt is a good example. It is clean, knowledgeable and seems to not charge more than it has to to assure itself a decent profit. It also seems to be doing rather well. Perhaps one of the reasons it is doing well is because it doesn't go overboard with it's prices. swreefer brought up the point that dirty stores seem to charge more than clean stores and for whatever reason that is the case in my area. The two stores that I mentioned are a perfect example. The clean, reasonably-priced store is about a 40 min drive for me while the dirty, ridiculously-priced store is about 10 min away. I go to the clean store virtually every time. On a final note, I defintely support the notion of paying a little more to support a decent, clean, conscionably-priced lfs. The emphasis here, though, is on the words "a little more". I will not pay through the nose to do so.

[ September 07, 2001: Message edited by: llowwelll ]

 

[MattM]

I've stayed out of this one so far, but...

A 50 gallon bag of Instant Ocean sells for $11.56 wholesale. That means the guy selling it for $14.99 is taking a 30% markup, and the guy selling it for $22.99 is taking a 100% markup. Dry goods markups in this business noramlly range from... Hey, it's 30% to 100%, what a coincidence!

But seriously, both are in the range of sanity, neither is "greedy" or "price gouging". They have made different choices on the quantity sold vs. profit curve, and you can make your choice on who to buy from, it's that simple.

Here's the reality of this business - actual numbers from a prior year:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">code:</font><HR><pre>
Sales $208,344.39
Cost of Goods Sold $115,746.78

Gross Profit $92,597.61

Expenses
Advertising $4,764.37
Merchant Fees &
Bank Charges $4,223.08
Freight $5,885.86
Payroll $25,436.19
Rent $21,000.00
Utilities $11,474.76
Supplies & Misc. $2,143.50

Net Profit $17,669.85
</pre><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And for the record, we sell 50 gallon Instant Ocean for $19.95 (70% markup), and quite a bit of it too. And our store is clean.

 

[MattM]

Darn, you can't make tables line up in this thing no matter how hard you try...

 

[Chucker]

To add some fun to this, I can walk in the door at a local pet supply store, and pick up a 50g bag of IO for $9.98. I just happen to be lucky enough to live within 10 miles of RC Steele

 

[SPC]

Just as I thought Matt, your making the BIG bucks while us poor

reefers are getting the shaft.

Steve

 

[llowwelll]

MattM, Thanks for posting with the details of your operation and for your forthrightness! Not that the 50 gal bag of salt is the end-all, be-all lfs product, but for the purposes of this discussion, do you mind if we treat it as the proverbial widget of the lfs industry? Please don't take the following as an attack of any sort. I'm simply curious as to your opinion. I'm pretty sure I would not pay $19.95 for the salt. On the other hand, I'm not familiar with the local economic climate where you are. It might be perfectly reasonable. You say that you sell a lot of it. Do you think if you lowered the price, you might sell more volume and reap more net profit overall? To me personally, not knowing any better, if I saw that your lfs was charging $19.95 for the salt, I would be turned off and be somewhat motivated to look for another lfs. I would suspect that your lfs was trying to gouge folks on prices. That's not saying that's what I think you personally are trying to do. But honestly, those types of thoughts would run across my mind as I saw a product priced significantly higher than the same product at other places. It would begin to erode my trust in that lfs. A final point: as I first started out setting up my tank several months ago, I did initially pay the inflated prices that some of the lfs's were charging over and above their competitors. As I figured out that I was spending too much money, I stayed away from the lfs's that charged too much. So that makes me wonder if lfs's are able to sell high-priced products to fairly naive, beginner customers but have more difficulty unloading those products on more experienced hobbyists? So again, please don't take offense. Simply curious.

 

[JennM]

Thank you, MaryHM for posting the FACTS.

I agree that people will charge what the market will bear. If EVERY LFS in the area sells salt for 19.99 then it's a "competitive" price. If somebody beats that price, more power to them, but if people are willing to pay that, so be it.

I also agree with the post that mentioned when stores go downhill, prices go up...somebody has to pay for the carelessness, and that's usually the uninformed consumer. Sad but true. It's surprising how many so-called hobbyists out there don't educate themselves or shop around.

Did you know that 71 % of hobbyists do not belong to an aquarium club or society? Most go it alone, and until they stumble on some place "better" they will pay whatever stores are asking. I still don't know a single LFS owner who is laughing all the way to the bank. It's a business we get into as a labor of love, and a passion for the hobby, not a get-rich-quick scheme.

I just tried to debunk some misinformation and narrow it down somewhat and apparently stepped on some toes in the process.

Jenn

 

[fishfarmer]

I think another thing that should be weighed into this debate is the availability of said products in your area and the distance you would travel. For example, I have two LFS that both sell salt for over $21 a 50 gal bag. They are also the stores that carry other reef supplies and where I buy livestock. I could travel to Petsmart, which is a little furthur away, just to buy salt for a few bucks cheaper. I could also order it by the bag online and get it delivered for $21. I could also look for a sale at a good LFS in another state and buy in bulk, but that option may not always be available.