Hard to Keep License

[Anonymous]

There has been some interesting discussion in the "ban" thread. There was an interesting idea put forth. How many of us, not the "general reefkeeping public", but those that are "more educated and advanced" through the use of the various boards, would be willing to be licensed to keep "difficult specimens"? I think, with the knowledge and contacts on this and the other boards, it would be fairly easy to at least come up with a local "compact" between ourselves. We could come up with a test that would grade us on our knowledge of the corals/fishes requirements and our ability to meet them in our individual tank. Until the test is administered by the administrators and passed, we would agree to not keep specimens. After a period of time, we could start to apply pressure to LFS', distributors, and government agencies for something similar in "the real world." Any thoughts?

 

[JennM]

Interesting notion, but I bet it won't fly. There are too many people who feel that there is already too much interference by governments, etc., and they don't want another layer of red tape.

I personally would rather see regulations regarding LFS, so not just anybody could open a store and sell delicate specimens to anybody with a credit card. I've seen too many scary stores and heard too many horror stories of unsuspecting and uneducated hobbyists being sold this and that by LFS that didn't know better, or didn't care. All they wanted was the customer's dollar and they washed their hands of the matter after the cash changed hands.

If we are to consider ourselves "advanced", then we must share our knowledge as we do here, and beyond, and we must be our own "police force" to not obtain specimens that we don't feel competant to maintain.

The minute you tell a group they "can't"...they WILL.

Jenn

 

[Jrsydevi1]

A very noble notion... but so was Communism...
No offense, only the purest of hearts could conceive of such a sanity-based solution to a selfish problem...
However, we are all humans here, and our track record speaks for itself..

Just ask the Awk...

 

[damsel]

i do like the idea of the fish store being required to have a licence. they would need someone to not only to write the curriculum but also to teach it. this could possibly be done by a committe of marine biologists, and offered via video course or on line, but who would pay them? i can see a problem here though because so many of the experts disagree amongst themselves do to the many successful ways of sustaining a reef at home and most everyone thinks their way is the right way. it would definately need to be made up of a commitee that consisted of home hobbyists, marine biologists, zoo/aquarium keepers, etc. good idea but quite a challenge to get the ball rolling. i would call my local aquarium and ask what kind of courses, training, etc. they all need to keep all the various fish, corals, inverts, etc. that they do. they must need some sort of license or certification before going to the airport and picking up a nurse shark. wouldn't you think? call sea world, wonder what they do?

the sad thing is that no one has ever been required to have any training, or test of knowledge and ethics before having children. if no one is worried about all the abusive, ignorant, and selfish people raising our precious children, i doubt if they would worry about a goniopora only making it a couple weeks at the lfs.

[ June 19, 2001: Message edited by: damsel ]

 

[Anonymous]

I appreciate the responses, but you have missed the point, or maybe I wasn't clear enough

. The point is that we are the ones to first undergo this torture

. We develop a test, we take it, and we agree that until we pass we don't keep the animal in question. If we can't do it, how can we expect the "undereducated" public to accept it? And if someone here fails the test and buys the coral/fish antway we can send the coral Gestapo/SS after him and kill his favorite snail

.

[ June 19, 2001: Message edited by: SteveNichols ]

 

[GavAn]

Steve,

I really think that this is a very good idea. I doubt that it would initially be popular with the masses but it would be a start. IMO it is really the hobbyists who have the knowledge to come up with that sort of rating system not the dealers. Also, sometimes it only takes a spark to start a fire. Not sure how the logistics of it could work, perhaps a thread a week on a certain group and getting people to vote and add comments which would be a useful resource in itself. Coordination and cooperation across BBs would be the way to go. Once everything has been compiled then a list of categories - "Research only", "Difficult to keep/requires special care", "moderately difficult" etc could be drawn up. This could form the basis for which groups need researching on their captive care and how this could be coordinated and a guide for dealers, perhaps even licensing of what are "difficult to keep". I have been involved in smoething similar on another board and one problem is that I get the feeling that people mainly tend to respond when they have had good a experience and not bad and that can bias things so I would keep everything anonymous for the survey and keep it separate from the comments section eg a survey run concurrently with a thread on the same subject. Perhaps only a select group of volunteers should do the survey. Don't really know, just some ideas to kick around.

It is easy to say that this sort of thing is too hard and won't work etc etc but IMHO it is long overdue and as they say "you have to start somewhere". So administrators of the reefing boards, what do you say - are you up to the challenge?

Looking forward to the fedback and awaiting the kicks up the butt

for a newcomer to the board.

Ciao,
Gavan

 

[JennM]

I'd be willing to bet that even WE couldn't agree on methods or criteria.

In this hobby there are many ways to do many things, and often people disagree.

If the tank and inhabitants are healthy and thriving, it WORKS. If not, it doesn't.

Somehow, putting a set of criteria together wouldn't be that simple, IMO.

 

[Anonymous]

There is enough scientific data and anecdotal data around to easily come up with some parameters. We know what many corals "eat", the depth and reef type that many come from. What I am gathering, JennM, is that you wouldn't want to try

. Am I correct?

 

[2poor2reef]

Good topic Steve. My thinking is that the responsible hobbyists already police themselves. We don't buy anything that we don't research and are reasonably sure we have the ability to keep. But we are not likely to agree on what is considered too difficult to keep, and indeed, it's not the same for everyone. This idea asks that we as responsible individuals restrict our freedoms because many others can't be trusted to be responsible. I for one am not willing to do that. That is the way personal freedoms are eroded. I police myself, and I am vocal when I see or hear someone I think is being irresponsible. And I make an effort to learn from others and to help others who are trying to learn. But I am not going to be so arrogant as to advocate enforcing my thinking on others against their will. Nor will I accept that limitation from others.

 

[GavAn]

Steve,

Just reading your post and I think that we are talking about too slightly different things although they are geared toward the same outcome. I think that you are thinking more about who should be allowed to keep certain things (ie knowledge level) and I suppose that I am advocating a way to "get at" what those restricted things should be. Both issues would need to be addressed (as well as others) if any form of licensing were to become a reality.

JennM,

Agree, but I was thinking more about a consensus on various aspects. For example, I think that most people who have sucessfully kept Tubastrea spp. would agree that they need target feeding but when it came to lighting for Goniopora spp some would say should be intense, wome people would say low light is better but most people who have kept them would say that they are very difficult. Where the "experts" disagree, I think that it is often because different ways work and so that is interesting but not a big deal IMO. I definitely agree that it would not be simple to set up.

Gavan

 

[jmeader]

One thing to keep in mind for a license should be the ability to keep things alive and NOT how it is done. If this took place in the 70s then by the standards of that time, someone doing things the way they are done now would flunk the test. Not a good way to advance.

 

[GavAn]

2poor2reef,

Bit of a cultural difference here I suspect although where I come from I suspect that there are many people that would agree with you on that and I can see the logic well enough. However, IMO. there will always be some issues overridding personal freedom. IMO, these include things that impact on other people and uneccesarily on other creatures but in many cases it is a tough call I know. In this kind of situation though I just don't know that self policing cuts it. If you do the right thing I don't really think that what has been proposed would impinge on your personal freedom too much. For example, I am not suggest that you would need a license to keep all marine life - just the hard to keep. Things like Goniopora spp., anemones, nonphotosynthetic Gorgonians and mandarin fish come to mind. Imagine how many of these things that we love so much would be saved by such a small inconvenience... and they would still be available to the people most likely to be able to keep them.

GavAn

[ June 19, 2001: Message edited by: GavAn ]

 

[Anonymous]

I think this time has come.

It will not be that difficult if you have enough support.

The license it self is not all that difficult if you do not try to reinvent the wheel.
To own a protected animal or even an endangered one their are licensing you must go through. I am not saying that this must be that vigeourse but the ground work is already there and easily applicable.
The largest thing in obtaining these type of licenses is being endorsed by a recongized group or authority.
The consent of dealers is not necessary if this is somethng that the people of this hobby have relized is a neccesity. The dealers are to serve this hobby not dictate it.
In this circumstance the type of endorsements you would most likely want would be from Public/private Aquariums and Zoos as not to bring in conflicts of intreset from parties who would stand to profit or corrupt the licensing authority.

Do not try to reinvent the wheel and it could succeed, these licensing have been refined through the years and yes their is fraud but it is not large scale.

Just thinking out loud.

 

[MaryHM]

Personally, I think that the certification program currently being constructed by the Marine Aquarium Council (www.aquariumcouncil.org) will help to solve many problems. The certification of livestock would start at the collector, and follow the chain of custody all of the way to the retailer. I just received the amended standard of practice today from MAC- the changes that were made following the public input period (how many of you participated in that???). The complete standards are scheduled to be available to the public July 1. I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[2poor2reef]

Well said GavAn. I understand your point. I am a believer in individual freedom combined with individual responsibility. That used to be the hallmark of American culture but it has long since ceased to be a defining trait. We have laws that require us to wear seat belts when we drive. Anyone with a brain would choose to do so voluntarily, but we no longer have the choice. Does it matter if you are forced to do something that you would choose to do anyway? You bet. Because we don't all see things the same way. That's the way it is though. We are already terribly over-regulated. It will be a sad day for me to lose another freedom in an area that I have enjoyed so much. Until then, I will vote with my opinion in a civilized tone amongst my thoughtful friends on this board.

 

[Minh Nguyen]

WE the experts decided who among us (because we are better than normal everyday John or Jane Smith) could keep certain corals that WE decided that are hard to keep.
This can also change to:
WE the experts, decided which human among us (because we are better than the normal John or Jane Smith) are fit to procreated because WE knows which genes are good for the human race and which are not.
See my point?
The WE above invariably ended up meaning some power hungry demigods. This has being show over and over in history.

 

[MaryHM]

Information on MAC is at www.aquariumcouncil.org

Information on AMDA is at www.amdareef.com

Information on MASNA is at www.masna.org

Information on the IMA is at www.imamarinelife.org

Information on me is at www.reefsource.com

 

[GavAn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Minh Nguyen:
<STRONG>WE the experts decided who among us (because we are better than normal everyday John or Jane Smith) could keep certain corals that WE decided that are hard to keep.
This can also change to:
WE the experts, decided which human among us (because we are better than the normal John or Jane Smith) are fit to procreated because WE knows which genes are good for the human race and which are not.
See my point?
The WE above invariably ended up meaning some power hungry demigods. This has being show over and over in history.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Definitely something to be wary and vigilent about but the unfortunate truth is that you have to draw the line somewhere otherwise what you are looking at is anarchy. When it comes to defenseless creature that we do not want to see vanish from the face of the earth, we are the ones who have to decide where to draw the line. Self policing may occasionally work but when Gonipora is one of the corals most frequently imported into the USA (see Mary's post on the Australian ban thread) and at the same time has one of the worst survival records, it is surely failing this hobby...

I don't really know anything about the measures that Mary is referring to and I feel like a bit of an intruder commenting on the US market but it would seem to be prudent to me that hobbyists had a system different to that developed by dealers for this. Mary, what you are talking about is a code of practice for importers and dealers isn't it, not hobbyists? What about the American love for checks and balances?

Gavan

 

[MaryHM]

MAC, AMDA, IMA, etc... are focusing on cleaning up the industry side of things. The industry is where a lot of the problems start, and cleaning it up will filter healthier animals down to the hobbyists which will help with their success rates. To license or regulate every marine hobbyist in the US would be practically impossible. The best way to deal with the hobbyist sector is to educate them through organizations such as MASNA and AMDA- and not just rely on the LFS salesperson's spoken word

I would really like to see brochure shelfs containing species information for EVERY species carried by the LFS. I would also like to see these flyers be free. The information contained within the flyers would be the most up to date information compiled by industry professionals, researchers, etc... and would be uniform and consistent. I think that would go a LONG way to help out the newbies. Personally, I would like to see reefs.org, etc...be required reading for newbies, but that- like licensing- won't happen. It's important to work within the realm of reality and what concrete things we can do to instigate change. What do you guys think about informational flyers? Any other ideas?

 

[Lefty1]

When I worked at pet stores that had herps we made up info flyers. People took them but did not read them, and if they read them, the generally ignored them. There were only two types of people who paid attention. They first would have found out about the animals they were getting anyway, and the second type were the ones that the sales people spent a lot of time with.
For a while I would send people home with a book or a flyer to read before they got to go home with an animal. It worked well, but the owners of the store made us stop because they though the people would just go to another store and buy the animals there.
So what am I saying. I think industry side is the place to make changes, but balancing that against people who are in business to make a profit may be hard. How do you get store owners to say no to someone who wants to drop a bunch of cash in their laps?