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gobyfan

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Hello,
I wanted to get some opinios from you guys to see if i am stocking my 29 g tank right, and not overstocking it, here is what i have so far!
My tank is running for 6 months, with a Emperor 400 Filter and a Red Sea Prizm Skimmer.
2 Maxijet Powerheads.
Custom Sealife 2x65 watt, 1 10,000k Ultra Daylight, and 1 7100 Ultra Actinic.
20 Pounds of Premium Fiji Live Rock (so far)
4 inch sand bed of Aragonite.

All water parameters at there best, so far.

20% water changes every 2 weeks.

Temp 80

FISH
1 Yellow Tail Damsail
1 True Perc Clown
1 Purple Firefish
1 Orange Spot Goby
1 Blackcap Basslet
1 Small Yellow Tang

Inverts
4 Scarlett Hermit Crabs
4 Blue Leg Hermit Crabs
1 Cleaner Shrimp
1 Sand Sifting Starfish

Softies
Just Xenia so far!

Planning on adding
Fish- Maybee one more if possible a jawfish, but not a priority.

Inverts-Either a Red Starfish or a Blue linkia, and a couple of peppermint shrimp, and a couple of Feather Dusters.

Corals

Softies
Mushrooms, Polyps, Leather.

Hard
Open Brain, Bubble Coral, Trumpet Coral, Elegant Coral, Hammer Coral.

1 Anenome (After the tank has been established for at leat 1 year)

Thanks

[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: gobyfan ]

[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: gobyfan ]

[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: gobyfan ]</p>
 

Cracker

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Put on your abestos suit, the flames will be coming if you put a tang in a 29. It seems like a lot of livestock for a tank that small. You may want to pick your favorites out of the list and go with them. Your tank will be less prone to crash with a smaller bioload.
Whitey
 

dustint

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Hello,
Well I think I responded to a post from you a while back as we both have the same setup. I have 2 55watt 10K daylight PC's(JBJ) and a 20 watt actinic on a 29 gallon with the Emperor 400 Filter and a Red Sea Prizm Skimmer. I have about 30-35 lbs live rock and 2 inches of carib sea sand. My additives include a kalk drip and Kent DKH buffer. My livestock:
1 gold striped maroon
1 firefish
1 redlipped blenny.
Coral banded shrimp
Sally lightfoot
Linkia multiflora star
a few emerald crabs and snails.

I think you have an absolute max as far as fish bioload. But I will say that none of these fish are big waste making fish, most are small and will stay small. As far as the Tang, I think if he is small you a few months before trade in. I A small tang in a 29 is fine for a short period of time(6 months), but for the overall health of the fish trade him in for more live rock, just my 2 cents.

Have you thought about dripping kalk? Have any macro algaes growing? Also, if you dont have a powerhead Id get one and put it between the filters facing the front glass. This will help kill any dead spots and keep microalgae under control. As far as the star fish you listed Ive got a Linkia multiflora and would highly reccomend it, they are very colorful and hearty.

Well good luck,
Dustin
 

gobyfan

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by dustint:
<strong>Hello,
Well I think I responded to a post from you a while back as we both have the same setup. I have 2 55watt 10K daylight PC's(JBJ) and a 20 watt actinic on a 29 gallon with the Emperor 400 Filter and a Red Sea Prizm Skimmer. I have about 30-35 lbs live rock and 2 inches of carib sea sand. My additives include a kalk drip and Kent DKH buffer. My livestock:
1 gold striped maroon
1 firefish
1 redlipped blenny.
Coral banded shrimp
Sally lightfoot
Linkia multiflora star
a few emerald crabs and snails.

I think you have an absolute max as far as fish bioload. But I will say that none of these fish are big waste making fish, most are small and will stay small. As far as the Tang, I think if he is small you a few months before trade in. I A small tang in a 29 is fine for a short period of time(6 months), but for the overall health of the fish trade him in for more live rock, just my 2 cents.

Have you thought about dripping kalk? Have any macro algaes growing? Also, if you dont have a powerhead Id get one and put it between the filters facing the front glass. This will help kill any dead spots and keep microalgae under control. As far as the star fish you listed Ive got a Linkia multiflora and would highly reccomend it, they are very colorful and hearty.

Well good luck,
Dustin</strong><hr></blockquote>

I have heard about the Kalk, what can you tell me about it, and how do you do it, what are the benifits of adding it?? And yes i do have two powerheads, i just forgot to post them.

Thanks
icon_smile.gif
 

Modo

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This has got to be a TROLL!

Gobyfan if your for real personal message me and we'll talk. I have been running a 29g for 3 years and can give you some tips.
 

speck

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Hi Gobyfan
I've been running a 20g long, with a 10g refugium, and a 10g sump for about 4 yrs.

A couple of things:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>FISH
1 Yellow Tail Damsail
1 True Perc Clown
1 Purple Firefish
1 Orange Spot Goby
1 Blackcap Basslet
1 Small Yellow Tang

Inverts
4 Scarlett Hermit Crabs
4 Blue Leg Hermit Crabs
1 Cleaner Shrimp
1 Sand Sifting Starfish

Softies
Just Xenia so far!

<hr></blockquote>
IME your tank is stocked to the max.
icon_eek.gif

I wouldn't add another animal until you get a bigger tank, or trade in some of what you have.

Trade the tang in at your LFS. Some people say a tang shouldn't be kept in a tank smaller than 55g, others say 100g. There is an ongoing debate on this subject. Do a search on this or other BBs and you'll see what I mean. I've never had a tang, so I can't say.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
20% water changes every 2 weeks

This is good, but in a small system nitrate can build up in a hurry, especially if somthing dies and you don't notice it for a few days. Keep a close check on NO3 or you'll be in for a hellofa alga bloom.

Dripping Kalk is good for maintaining Ca, Alk., and it will help your skimmer pull organics out of your water. Do a search on the BBs for the details on mixing, dripping etc.

HTH
icon_smile.gif

Mike

[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: speck ]</p>
 

Modo

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Gobyfan- first off I'll apologize for accusing you of a Troll. But, I have seen it plenty on these boards. Thats why I wanted you to PM me if you really were serious and not yanking our chains.

Soooo, with that out of the way. I am assuming you are going for a reef tank and not a fish only tank. Like the others have said you must really reduce your fish load. You need to do this immediately! First the Tang MUST go. These are beautiful fish and one of my favorites but they belong in large tanks no matter how small they are. Second, I would choose 3 fish from what you have already as keepers and take the rest back. IME with Damsels they are demons and harrass everything else in the tank. The same is true with Blackcap Basslets. I had one that killed a goby I had before I could get him out. Both these fish are very territorial. But, yours may not be and may make a great addition to your tank. You can only make that call by observing their behavior.

I have a Perc, Chromis and a Red Lip Blenny and alot of people will say this is max or over max on fish load in my 29g. My guys get along well and my parameters stay in range so this is balanced for me. I really don't see all these fish on your list getting along in your tank and feel that soon enough one if not more is going to succomb to stress and die.

I believe an Emporer 400 is a hang on filter not a canister (if my memory serves me right). Once you reduce your bio load (taking fish back) remove the filter media. This will only be a nitrate factory and cause problems on down the line. But, reduce your fish load first. The bacteria in this media is supporting your tank at the moment.

When you take the fish back that you are not going to keep (TANG! and others) use the credit to get more live rock. I would suggest at least 10 more lbs at min. Make sure this is CYCLED if you put more raw live rock in your tank it will crash! This will be your filter along with your skimmer. Also, your sand is a huge filter and you want to keep it "alive". This means lots and lots of critters and worms (even bristle worms....these are good despite some books and exceptions of species but we will cross that bridge later). To do this you will also need to remove the SAND SIFTING STARFISH. He eats all these critters in your sand. This is bad. If you like starfish go with the Brittle Stars. Some will advise against this but I personally along with lots of others have never had problems.

Your lighting is on the marginal side. You have a good setup and have obviously done some research to get this far. You can probably support mushrooms, different leathers and polyps. Stay away form stoney corals for the time being. Once you get things up and running you will need to uprgrade your lighting. I am running a 250w Metal Halide over my tank. It works and it's something to shoot for towards upgrades. Once you get there let me know. I did it for about $150 and my temp stays between 78-82. You will also need to do some more research on corals before jumping into stoneys. You will be able to cut your list on those down after a little research.

Stay away from the Linkia starfish (blue, red, orange, etc.) These guys are notorius for dissolving into piles of goo in reef tanks.Please steer clear of Linkias. Don't get a Jawfish either. I think we covered this earlier.
icon_smile.gif
Peppermint shrimp are great additions and you could add a couple of these for sure. They will also help in Aptasia control to an extent. Your Cleaner will chase them a bit but no big deal. I have both in my tank without a hitch.

Your Xenia once started will spread quite rapidly. This is a good sign and before long you will be having to cut it back. This is a form of nutrient export and cash or credit from the LFS. Good choice on your first coral.

Anemones is a totally different story. In a tank our size I would say that they are out of the question unless thats all you want in there. But, again that is my opinion.

So, to sum this up. You have a good start on a great hobby. Maybe made some bad choices but you did the right thing and thats to come here and ask. Listen to all the experience here and then apply it to your system. You will find that there is no concrete way in doing anything in this hobby but there is a correct way and variations on that. So you have taken the plunge into this hobby. That means that you have also taken on alot of responsibility to read and educate yourself for what is best for your animals and NOT what is most pleasing for you.

My advice is up top. Please come back with lots more questions. Also, read read read read read read read and read some more.

If I left anything out I'm sure others will hop in and even correct some of these suggestions. Please do.

Hope this helps!!
Kurt
 

reefworm

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goby,
you've mentioned an aragonite substrate.... is that sand [if so what size] or is it crushed coral? If its the latter, you might want to convert to sand before you get too far along. CC will become a detritus trap - read nitrate issues down the road as a real possibility. The detritus will not be cleaned up that well by the detrivores, as many will not live well [if at all] in CC bed - sizes of particles usually too big and the edges are abrasive to the animals. A cheap option is to find the Southdown playsand at Home Depot if your local one carries it. The variety of partical sizes and smoother finish will promote a much larger and varied infauna population. Figure 4" as a minimum depth with 5.5" to 6" being optimal. Seed it with live sand and/or detrivore kit and off you go! You can transfer some of your critters from your existing bed by tying up a few balls of nylon hose and sinking them partway into the new bed. After a few days you can remove the nylon balls as the creatures will have moved in. If your bed is sand already then you should be fine on material. A detriovre kit might still be something to think about.

hope this helps,
rw
 

gobyfan

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Modo:
<strong>Gobyfan- first off I'll apologize for accusing you of a Troll. But, I have seen it plenty on these boards. Thats why I wanted you to PM me if you really were serious and not yanking our chains.

Soooo, with that out of the way. I am assuming you are going for a reef tank and not a fish only tank. Like the others have said you must really reduce your fish load. You need to do this immediately! First the Tang MUST go. These are beautiful fish and one of my favorites but they belong in large tanks no matter how small they are. Second, I would choose 3 fish from what you have already as keepers and take the rest back. IME with Damsels they are demons and harrass everything else in the tank. The same is true with Blackcap Basslets. I had one that killed a goby I had before I could get him out. Both these fish are very territorial. But, yours may not be and may make a great addition to your tank. You can only make that call by observing their behavior.

I have a Perc, Chromis and a Red Lip Blenny and alot of people will say this is max or over max on fish load in my 29g. My guys get along well and my parameters stay in range so this is balanced for me. I really don't see all these fish on your list getting along in your tank and feel that soon enough one if not more is going to succomb to stress and die.

I believe an Emporer 400 is a hang on filter not a canister (if my memory serves me right). Once you reduce your bio load (taking fish back) remove the filter media. This will only be a nitrate factory and cause problems on down the line. But, reduce your fish load first. The bacteria in this media is supporting your tank at the moment.

When you take the fish back that you are not going to keep (TANG! and others) use the credit to get more live rock. I would suggest at least 10 more lbs at min. Make sure this is CYCLED if you put more raw live rock in your tank it will crash! This will be your filter along with your skimmer. Also, your sand is a huge filter and you want to keep it "alive". This means lots and lots of critters and worms (even bristle worms....these are good despite some books and exceptions of species but we will cross that bridge later). To do this you will also need to remove the SAND SIFTING STARFISH. He eats all these critters in your sand. This is bad. If you like starfish go with the Brittle Stars. Some will advise against this but I personally along with lots of others have never had problems.

Your lighting is on the marginal side. You have a good setup and have obviously done some research to get this far. You can probably support mushrooms, different leathers and polyps. Stay away form stoney corals for the time being. Once you get things up and running you will need to uprgrade your lighting. I am running a 250w Metal Halide over my tank. It works and it's something to shoot for towards upgrades. Once you get there let me know. I did it for about $150 and my temp stays between 78-82. You will also need to do some more research on corals before jumping into stoneys. You will be able to cut your list on those down after a little research.

Stay away from the Linkia starfish (blue, red, orange, etc.) These guys are notorius for dissolving into piles of goo in reef tanks.Please steer clear of Linkias. Don't get a Jawfish either. I think we covered this earlier.
icon_smile.gif
Peppermint shrimp are great additions and you could add a couple of these for sure. They will also help in Aptasia control to an extent. Your Cleaner will chase them a bit but no big deal. I have both in my tank without a hitch.

Your Xenia once started will spread quite rapidly. This is a good sign and before long you will be having to cut it back. This is a form of nutrient export and cash or credit from the LFS. Good choice on your first coral.

Anemones is a totally different story. In a tank our size I would say that they are out of the question unless thats all you want in there. But, again that is my opinion.

So, to sum this up. You have a good start on a great hobby. Maybe made some bad choices but you did the right thing and thats to come here and ask. Listen to all the experience here and then apply it to your system. You will find that there is no concrete way in doing anything in this hobby but there is a correct way and variations on that. So you have taken the plunge into this hobby. That means that you have also taken on alot of responsibility to read and educate yourself for what is best for your animals and NOT what is most pleasing for you.

My advice is up top. Please come back with lots more questions. Also, read read read read read read read and read some more.

If I left anything out I'm sure others will hop in and even correct some of these suggestions. Please do.

Hope this helps!!
Kurt</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ok....

This is what i have planned tell me if this is more of a smart bioload,
I will take back the Tang and get a credit twoards some live rock, and then i will also take back the Damsail!
But i would like to add another true perc, so my fish load will be as follows;
2 True Percula Clowns
1 Purple Firefish
1 Blackcap Basslet
1 Orange Spot Goby
THATS ALL AS FAR AS FISH!!!!
As for the Sifting Star i will probably take that back as well, and get a brittle star unsted, i would like to have at least two different type of stars. (how many starfish can you realy have in a 29g??)
I will still add a couple of Pepermint Shrimp.
And then i will start adding some Soft Corals (SLOWLY), and when the tank is at least a year old i will start adding some Hard Corals, but no Clams!!
I am wondering about the Anenome, i would like the precs to have a host for them to feel comfortable, what other option is there other than a Anenome that will accept the percs?

Oh about the extra critters on the sand bed, what would you recommend i do since the Aragonite that i have dosn't seem to have that many to begin with.

Well this is my plan so far! I do appreciate alll the advice that you have given me!!!

Thanks
 

gobyfan

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By the way how many Corals can you put in a 29 g without crashing the system?

Does the fish rule of thumb also apply for corals?

Thanks

[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: gobyfan ]</p>
 

sos1

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by gobyfan:
<strong>By the way how many Corals can you put in a 29 g without crashing the system?

Does the fish rule of thumb also apply for corals?

Thanks

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Corals won't put much of a bioload in your tank. Your coral limits will be based more on space available. I'd still reconsider your fish load though. I've got a 27gal and I've only got 1 jawfish and 1 bicolor blenny. Even if you can pull off keeping all those fish, your coral may suffer. Good luck
icon_smile.gif
 

smoothmove

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Adding another True Percula will probably end up bad. 1 True Percula + 1 True Percula= 1 True Percula. They will probalbly fight and kill one another. If you want 2, you must remove your percula and buy a pair. Or buy 2 Tank raised Ocellaris Clowns and they will get along.

Just trying to save fish


Good luck
 

esmithiii

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FWIW I only have 7 fish in my 180G (+50G sump) and all but two are under 3". I plan on adding a couple more fish but not many! I think that 5 fish in a 29G tank is still too many. I know its hard, especially when you see the LFS's tanks with 12+ in a tank the size of yours. I agree also that the tang should go.

I have over 270 lbs of LR, and a 4-6" DSB which helps a ton on filtration. IMO, you need to add at least another 25 lbs of LR, and get rid of the emperor 400. It will be a nitrate farm soon.

Your lighting is enough for some soft corals and some limited LPS corals.

Here is a link to dosing kalkwasser:

Everything you wanted to know about Kalkwasser but were afraid to ask
 

rBeOeBf

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Replace it with nothing! If you have a sand bed, live rock, and a skimmer, that's really all the filtration you need. How's that for not so expensive?...
icon_smile.gif
 

gobyfan

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by rBeOeBf:
<strong>Replace it with nothing! If you have a sand bed, live rock, and a skimmer, that's really all the filtration you need. How's that for not so expensive?...
icon_smile.gif
</strong><hr></blockquote>
WOW!!
Is Aragonite considered a sand bed? I guess it is but it looks like i probably need to add more sandbut i dont know what kind would be good, live sand, more Aragonite, or other sand?? it mesures right know about 3 inches deep, any help on the sand issue will be GREAT!!

So if i don't need a filter, why is it other people use them for?? I thoght i needed a filter??
icon_confused.gif


[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: gobyfan ]</p>
 

reefworm

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Gobyfan,
Is the aragonite a crushed coral product? If it is you should not consider it as sand. Do a search in the reefs.org library for sandbed or DSB and you'll find tons of info on the proper amounts of sand of various sizes. Again, another option is to use the Southdown play sand from Home Depot. For an optimum bed of 6" depth figure on a total of 100-115 pounds of sand. If you already have 3" and it is indeed sand then you'll only need another 50 pounds. The Southdown comes in 40 pound bags and its pretty cheap. But do make sure that what you have in the tank already is sand of the right sizes or get rid of it.

Dr. Ron recommends 40% 1/8thmm to 1/16mm particle size

30% 1/8th to 1/4thmm
15% 1/4 to 1/2mm
10% 1/2 to 1mm
5% >1mm

the different sizes are to accomodate a variety of benthic creatures. That's the ideal. But the playsand has a pretty decent variety of sizes and many people have used it by itself with good results. As far as livesand goes, make about 10 pounds of your total livesand if your budget can take it, or as much as you can afford. More than one source will help diversify the lifeforms you get in your DSB.

I agree that the Emperor filter is unnecessary. The sand and LR will handle it all for you once the populations of infauna and bacteria have established themselves. Cut down on the bioload - esp. the fish. I considered my 29 maxed with 3 fish [ocillaris, gramma loreto and centro. binspinus].

best of luck,
-rw
 

gobyfan

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by reefworm:
<strong>Gobyfan,
Is the aragonite a crushed coral product? If it is you should not consider it as sand. Do a search in the reefs.org library for sandbed or DSB and you'll find tons of info on the proper amounts of sand of various sizes. Again, another option is to use the Southdown play sand from Home Depot. For an optimum bed of 6" depth figure on a total of 100-115 pounds of sand. If you already have 3" and it is indeed sand then you'll only need another 50 pounds. The Southdown comes in 40 pound bags and its pretty cheap. But do make sure that what you have in the tank already is sand of the right sizes or get rid of it.

Dr. Ron recommends 40% 1/8thmm to 1/16mm particle size

30% 1/8th to 1/4thmm
15% 1/4 to 1/2mm
10% 1/2 to 1mm
5% >1mm

the different sizes are to accomodate a variety of benthic creatures. That's the ideal. But the playsand has a pretty decent variety of sizes and many people have used it by itself with good results. As far as livesand goes, make about 10 pounds of your total livesand if your budget can take it, or as much as you can afford. More than one source will help diversify the lifeforms you get in your DSB.

I agree that the Emperor filter is unnecessary. The sand and LR will handle it all for you once the populations of infauna and bacteria have established themselves. Cut down on the bioload - esp. the fish. I considered my 29 maxed with 3 fish [ocillaris, gramma loreto and centro. binspinus].

best of luck,
-rw</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well the Aragonite that i have is manufactured CaribSea, Inc, and it is Crushed Coral, i recall on the bag it said that it had some benifecial organisims and bacteria, to speed up the Cycling process, and as i recall it wasn't cheap!!
It is sugar size.

Does this qualify as Live sand??

gobyfan
icon_biggrin.gif
 

reefworm

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gobyfan,
Sounds like the right stuff - CaribSea sugar size is good - runs around .5mm particle size. For the rest of the bed use a slightly different size, preferably smaller than .5mm, or go w/the Southdown if you can find it. One bag will probably do. Usually runs around $6-$7.5 for a 40# bag.

hope this helps,
-rw
 

dustint

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I have a comment on the emporer. What I did was remove my bio wheels. Now I have a 2 gallon bin and pump, which I now use a refugium of sorts and additional current. I dont have a light on it or anything, but I keep my heater and a few porous rocks in it and my pod population is increasing. I can see them in their as well as a few baby shrimp from months ago when my peppermint layed its eggs. Its worked for me, so I say keep it. You also have a great place to add carbon and phosphate remover etc.

Dustin
 

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