I give up! LONG!

[R00]

Hey everyone, long time no see!

Well I'm at my wits end with hair algae! I have a 110 oceanic RR, 4"dsb, 200lbs. LR. Tank has been running for over three years and I have been fighting hair algae for at least three of these last years! I've done everything possible and within two weeks it's back and running over everything! The tank is a built in and I'm seriously thinking of trashing the whole thing and turning it into a closet! Here's the specs/equip list,

tank equip.
oceanic 110 RR

40gallon sump w/50lbs lr (not counting 200lbs. in main)

aqua c ev200 w/ iwaki 30rlt (dedicated to skimmer)

Mak 4 for return

wave master pro w/4 maxi jet 1200's

Korrilin Kalk reactor

aqua medic nitratereductor (600L)

2 400w 12k halide pendants

1 250w 10k halide pendant w/2 actinic pc

100 mg. hr ozonizer

Tank Specs,

Sg. 1.024

water make up is from a Hi s Maxxima 60gpd ro-di unit.

temp is 79-81

nitrate 0

nitrite 0

phos. 0

Ca. steady at 475

Alk. meq.L 3.5-4.00

Ph. 8.2 day-7.9 night.

4"dsb.

200lbs. lr in main with approx. 50lbs. in sump.

feed once day with frozen brine,emerald entree, then next day i feed dry pellets of osi's ocean stars marine pellets. (very small amounts at each feeding.

fish are.

1 Foxface

1 yellow tang

1 scooter blenny

1 fridmani

4 Banngai

2 clarkii (paired)

1 blue DAMNsel

inverts are.

100 red scarlet reef

100 black and white hermits

1 sally light foot

4 mythrix

100 nassarius snails

100 baha snails

handful astrea snails

handful bluelegs

corals are.

various mushrooms

yellow toadstool leather

1 derasa (4")

pulsing zenia

pearl bubble

various small acro's

finger leather

purple branching gorgonian

green open brain

I'm sure I've missed a few but these are the main things that pop in my head right now.

I have been doing a 30-40% water change every other day for the last year! (gets real expensive with salt!)

During water change I suck out/ pull out as much hair as I can. Within two days the hair is back! I do not add any additives any more (for last two years) and use instant ocean salt. The test kits are all Salifert and are all up to date. I use a refractometer for salinity, pinpoint monitor for ph. As you can see we have put a ton of money into the best equip. we can get. that doesn't work. I have tried other test kits and they all read about the same but salifert seems to be more accurate that others, I also run a cannister with 1 liter of phosguard in it which I change once a week. My wife and I have tried everything but are thinking of letting the tank go and get out of the hobby, the expense is not worth the result as far as we see it! ALL THIS work and all we get out of it is a nasty green tank that looks like....well you guys know! I just don't know what else to do!!!!

If any one has something we could try we would really like to hear it. I have probably forgotten a lot of the things we have tried and if I remember any I'll post them. I can also send you pics. of how the tank looks after only 5 days of no water chng./hair pulling!! Thanks L.

 

[todd_reefer]

I had a brutal macro algea outbreak, it wasnt hair algea but it was some other brown nasty stuff that grew like weeds.

Have you tried dumping emerald crabs at it? I mean, get really BIG ones, like 2" and then drop them in the tank. They are what I used to rid myself of this terrible algae.

Todd

 

[R00]

I have 4 mythrix/emerald in the tank which are rather large but they don't seem to touch the stuff. Maybe I could add more? Like ....20 for a short time to see what happens?????

 

[Scottis24]

Relax man, Don't give up and waste all of your money/time. Remember this is supposed to be a hobby, not a contest to see who can really spend the most money (gadgets r cool though).

Anyway, when I got my tank from a buddy who was going back to the navy he had a hair alge ISSUE! he would let it go two weeks and have hair alge 9-10" long in spots. Eveything was covered in it, and he was using crushed oyster shell for substrate. I got the tank (also an oceanic but 58g) to put in my office lobby since the light granite finish is so pretty. I did all of the usuals when moving the tank but sure enough it came back with in a week. I came here for help an learned about nutrient excess. So what I do now is RO/DI pre mixed salt water changes with the water set up by my salt water only LFS. I also added a few hermits and a emerald. They didn't make it except for one, but the biggest thing I did was get a hungry yellow tang form the LFS. I took out all of the rocks and scrubbed the alge off except for two rocks which are the roof of the rockwork caves.... I also went from crushed oyster to aragonite for ss. 1 week later the remaining alge on top of the rocks was gone as my tang ate it all and looked like a little yellow butterball with fins for a week. I skipped most of your EQ list but if you don't have a RO/DI unit get one and get a yellow. Mines, about 4 inches and does fine controlling alge in my 58g.... HTH....

 

[Scottis24]

After replying I noticed you have both a RODI and a yellow. try forcing the yellow to eat alge by not letting him eat with the other fish. Or get another pair and make them eat alge before you feed him. just a thought.

 

[carver]

Don't give up. There is generally a solution for most problems. I had a problem with filamentous algae some time ago and added a scopas tang. He/she devoured it and the problem is now history.

 

[jazzyreef]

Couple things. What is your photoperiod?? Cutting back on the time all your lamps are lit might help. Also, I personally think bluelegs are better at controlling algae than redlegs, IMHO. Also, my bluelegs don't eat my snails(at least, not that often).

There are a few different nudies available as 'lettuce nudibranchs' (elysia spp.) that are great with hair algae. Sprung & Delbeek (reefAquarium vol.2 pp437-438)note that even very low levels of nitrite (well below 1ppm, measureable only with very low-level sensitivity test kits) allow for huge blooms of algae. Your tank isn't new, so that's not an issue, just a little trivia. Good luck.

 

[SPC]

Posted by ROO:
1 Foxface

1 yellow tang

1 scooter blenny

1 fridmani

4 Banngai

2 clarkii (paired)

1 blue DAMNsel

inverts are.

100 red scarlet reef

100 black and white hermits

1 sally light foot

4 mythrix

100 nassarius snails

100 baha snails

handful astrea snails

handful bluelegs


-Your probably not going to like this answer but IMO your bio load is to high. In order to keep all of those hermits alive you must have to feed a great deal.
Steve

 

[monkeyboy]

Nice catch Steve. Keeping 200 (and a handfull) hermits and 100 nassarius snails alive requires a large amount of food. I'd try to remove most of the hermits, and maybe many of the nassarius snails, this way you won't need to feed them as much. You may want to pick up an algae blenny or a bicolor blenny also to help out in the hair algae department. Cutting the photoperiod shorter is also a good idea.

BTW, what kind of rock is in the main tank?

 

[Bodine]

Are you putting to much CO2 in the system with the korallin?

How can you do water exchages at that rate....If all parameters are good, why do this? Sometimes stability in water can go a long way.

You may also consider a refugium in hope that macro algae will out compete the hair algae

If you have tried everything and can maintain calcium/alk levels with a reactor, try to disconnect the reactor. As excess CO2 will certainly help an algae bloom

I have a korallin reactor on my 180 and if I run it too fast I get a little algae outbreak..added second chamber and throttled back the reactor a little........

Grabbing at straws...

 

[Anonymous]

ROO- I too, have been battling green hair algea. All though not as bad as yours, and only for 3 or 4 months. I've tried just about everything posted on this board with-out success. I now suspect that the way I have my rock stacked may be the problem. When I originally set up the tank, I stacked the rock from the bottom with no rock touching the back glass. Water could freely circulate all around. This was "by the book". I had no GHA at that time. Of course, I was somewhat limited in the amount of corals I could keep because there a just so many places to put them when you only have 90 lbs of LR. After seeing many tanks setup with LR piled up against the back and side glass, I gave in and added another 60 lbs of live rock behind the original wall of LR. I then added more corals

. But now have the GHA problem. I have recently added another MJ 1200 pointing down behing the rockwork hoping to blow out any built-up detritus. We will see.

How's your rock stacked?

I'll never give on this. The GHA can not be allowed to win. Did Bill Murrey give up his pursuit of the gopher in Caddy Shack? Come on, let's get down to Bill's mentality and kick some green hair butt!!!

IMHO

Louey

[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: Louey ]</p>

 

[jazzyreef]

That's right. GGHD (god*@#! green hair algae) is evil, and must be destroyed. I haven't seen caddyshack in years. I feel inspired.

 

[Anonymous]

I notice you said you have a 4" DSB. Do you have a good critter population in the sand? Did you get detritivore kits? They are an essential part of a functioning sand bed. One should also "recharge" the critters anually. If you haven't done that, the sand bed can act as a "nutrient sink".

 

[reefing in LA]

Sounds like you need to get at the root of your problem. So even with water changes and manual removal, the algea still comes back. My guess is either the sandbed or perhaps your source water. When was the last time you change your cartridges/filters in your RO/DI system? A smaller bioload couldn't hurt.

I had a similar problem a couple years ago and I too almost left the hobby but I hung in there and started with the basics and haven't had a single strand of hair algea since. Here's what I did differently:

Lots of water circulation

Open reef structure

Got rid of the sand bed (sand beds are fine if done properly and you have the right fauna living in the bed)

Began using RO/DI from Kent unit instead of supermarket machine water.

Lots of snails and scarlet hermits but in your case maybe too much???

Replaced old bulbs.

Proper Calcium/Alkalinty Levels.

Better Protein Skimmer.


All these things made a huge difference but I suspect the main problem was poor water circulation and an ineffecient sand bed. Keep in mind, any changes you do will require patience if you are going to see any results. In my case, quicker results happened when I started taking out rocks on a daily basis and scrubbing them clean. If you don't manually export this algea, it will only get eaten and the nutrients will remain in the system to feed the remaining algea.

Just my 2 cents. Wishing you much success.

 

[Mouse]

I second what Steve and Bodine said. Watch your C02 and lower the bioload to start with.

The C02 can be affectively monitered with a probe and a solenoid switch. I know its more gadgetry but it could win the war.

IMO, phosgaurd sucks big time. Used it myself with no results. Get some ROWAPHOS and follow the instructions carefully, that OTOH is some sereously good stuff. Good luck and dont quit, i cant think of how many potentially amasing tanks have reached the same fate from this reasonably elementry problem.

Also introduce some higher level macros, like culerpa or something. This will compete far more affectively for nutrients starving the hair algie out.

Hair algie is one of those things thats allways resident in our systems. If i increaded the DOC's (disolved organic compounds) in my system im sure i could get it back.

All you have to do is make sure that all the nutrients are consumed, metabolised or denitrified before the hair algie gets to it. And beleave me Hair algie is fairly low on the food chain.

[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: Mouse ]</p>

 

[DK]

ROO, Looking at all your statistics, the thing that jumps out at me is that the Ph. 7.9 seems to me to be quite low. Hair algae needs food, light (in the right spectrum) and in my opinion, a ph below 8.3. In my tank right now, my nitrates are above 100, but, I have 10K halides and actinic bulbs younger that 1 year and a Ph that never goes below 8.35 - this is due to the calcium reactor which is feeding an overflow prior to the sump.
BTW, I am working on lowering the nitrates (they were above 150) but oddly, the corals including the SPS are still growing!!! and no micro algae, go figure.

 

[wingd]

I had a really tough time with some algae in my tank. I tried all sorts of crabs, snails, tangs, etc. I did water changes, new bulbs, phosphate remover, etc. As dumb as this sounds, what finally fixed the problem was flipping the rock upside down. I know that this is a real mess, but I just simply flipped the rock over where it could not get light to the portion that had hair algae on it. This gave my crabs, snails, tangs, an chance to keep up with the growth. Granted that if you have animals that are permanently mounted this won't work for you. I did continue to do water changes to remove the nutrients from the algae as it died. I also pulled off as much of the algae as I could before I flipped the rock. Since then I have not had an issue. This may not be the most elequent solution, but it worked for me.

 

[R00]

Hey everyone, just got online and was reading all the responses.

Lets see, I change this much water out because of the hair algae, wait ,wait...I use a "powered" toothbrush with a hose attached to it so as the brush scrubs the rock,glass etc. clean all the "crap" goes right down the drain and I refill with fresh saltwater. That's the reason for the massive water changes, it's not that I need them I'm just trying NOT to put any of the "spores" back into the water.

Also Photo period is 2 27 wattpc's on at 10am.
1 250 10k on at 11am.
2 400 12k on at 12pm.
400's off at 2pm.
250 off at 4pm.
pc's off at 8pm.
has been this way for about the last year, bulbs are all under one year old.

The 100 snails crabs etc. were added over time. I stopped about a year ago adding anything so you could probably cut the #'s in half. give or take.I know there are quite a lot mia!

The water tops off the tank from the ro/di unit through a float valve in the sump. Carts. are all within 6 months and the membrane is less than a year old.

Lettuce Nudies? I thought they only ate the "Bryopsis" form of algae? Or am I wrong on this? I know for a fact this is not the bryopsis as I had a small amount of it early on but the hair has "Taken over" it since.

Caluerpa/ Macro's- NO LUCK, had a HUGE bundle of it in my sump about two years ago, had to keep throwing it out since it grew so fast etc., It went "sexual" and all of it died off in about a week and to THIS day NO macro's will survive for more that a week!! What's up with that???? I am NOT spending any more $$ for macro's.

Critter pop. in the sandbed is amazing, in about a half cup of sub. there are probably 100 critters,bristle worms etc.You can see little tunnels all through it. The substrate is southdown if I didn't already mention that.

I have the 4 1200 maxi's on the wavemaster and the Mak 4 return is through the two returns that come with the oceanic tanks, nothing is "throttled" back at all. I have actually LOST corals due to the amount of circulation in the tank.

PH. too low? I was led to believe that the low Ph. was fine (caused by the Ca. reactor) just as long as it was not wildly swinging up and down.?

Hope I got everyone, I'll check back in a bit.
The Ca. reactor thing has me wondering though, never tried turning that down or off to see if it is putting in to much co2. Hmmmmm.

 

[jazzyreef]

your photoperiod seems great!! I wish I had the $$ to run something along those lines. Y'know, I was the one that suggested the lettuce nudies; you're right. They are much more apt to eat the bryopsis than the hair algae. I've never had either problem, so I was going on memory. OOPS!! I have heard that they'll eat hair too, but I haven't tested it out. As someone else suggested, I'd cut down the CO2 on your reactor. Is your pH controlled or just monitored (I'm assuming with expensive equipment, you have at least a monitor)? Controllers nowadays cost little more than monitors. Milwaukee makes one for just over $100. I agree that 7.9 is too low. Even if its not fluctuating, that low of a pH means you have more than a few ppm of CO2 in solution, which is definitely going to help the algae with a foothold. I have to mention again about what sprung says on nitrite, especially considering your bioload. Most test kits can read low-level if you reduce the amount of H2O in the vial.

Also, sounds like you're getting overcharged for macro. Round these parts, (just felt like saying that--I'm not a hillbilly) caulerpa,ogo, etc goes for about $2.50 for a generous portion. I remove about half of mine from my sump every couple weeks.....I just moved my tank a couple months ago, but the tank's been very stable, zero everything, no overabundance of nitrate or nuisance algae. I don't have a great skimmer setup---I'm using 2 creative plastics research 'bakpak' skimmers from 2 40-breeder tanks that I combined into a 75 last year. I have the caulerpa as an extra, but I plan to add more even after I get a single, large skimmer.

also, check your iron levels if you can't keep the caulerpa alive. Mine seems to suck it out of the water in a week's time.

Great setup you have there....best wishes on solving your problem.

 

[jazzyreef]

Thought I should clarify something. As pH goes up, CO2 content goes down with a constant alk. At a dKH of 10, or something like 3.7 meQ, pH of 7.9, there will be approx. 3-4ppm CO2. I've got a chart from a mag. article, but there are various ones on archive threads. This is an easy way of finding CO2 levels in a plant tank without an expensive test kit (I have LaMotte).