To all those with Rio fervor

[Carpentersreef]

Man.

Can anyone say Pandora's box?
When I got into this SW hobby a relatively short time ago (1 1/2 - 2 years ago), I had previous FW experience of about 25 years. I'm 38 now. I was aprehensive about buying ANYTHING because there was no emperical data on pretty much ANY equipment. Everything seemed to be about marketing. I can kind of understand why, given SO many variables in testing, but just like auto magazines, why can't we compare apples against apples and oranges against oranges? This reefing hobby is certainly not inexpensive, and I think that a HUGE percentage of aquarists' (sp?) just get frustrated and quit, due to unfufilled promises of magic this and magic that. I think that guided properly, studies could be properly funded to reveal qualities or shortcomings of varying products.
This CAN'T be a new topic.
I must be missing something. If that's the case, somebody tell me, and I will quit belaying the point.
I am not a Rio basher, or any other basher, for that matter. Business is business, Good products mean good business, and good marketing will only smooth things over until bad things are fixed. I do not believe in conspiracy theories.
I personally have the fervor because I cannot stand the thought of an 80$ pump taking out thousands of dollars worth of inhabitants, never mind the responsibilty of caring for them, to the best of my ability.

 

[Minh Nguyen]

David, I think you are great and a great person to have on the board and to listen to. Only I disagree with your thinking on RIO pumps.
I guess you can call me a Rio basher. I bashed Rio because it bashed me first. It zapped my thriving 100 g tank. Cost me many thousand of dollars and caused me to loose fish and inverterbrate that have beeing with me for several years.
I don't use Rio pumps because the potential of KILLING my whole tank. There are pumps out there that have same performance that cost a little more and does not have this potential IMO. Saving less than 50 dollars but have the potential of killing my whole tank (at this time worth more than 5000 dollars in livestock, and sentimental value) is not worth it. (I got a 5 year old fish, and another that was born in my tank)

 

[Adam1]

David,

Thanks for starting this thread, as usual I agree with you whole heartedly. IMO, RIO's probably deserve some of their reputation, but how many that failed were properly taken care of and used in the absence of kalkwasser?

Carpenter,

I agree with you as well, I am not an active basher of RIO, however, I certainly have stopped using them in my system.

Minh

I am sorry to hear about your losses. Perhaps if we can get a database started (see below) you could contribute your experience. You would have to agree that even the most stringent manufacturing will occasionally produce a lemon.

My suggestion, along the lines of Davids would be to set up a survey. I think a thread is too sloppy and allows for too much editorializing and emotion. A survey would gather information on all of the factors that might contribute to failure of a piece of equipment including age, additives, maintenance, etc. It could also isolate problems down to the model number rather than an entire manufacturer.

All that said, it is probably almost impossible to do, and to make it worse, every respondant should include all equipment used so that statistal rates of failure could be established. Since people who have had problems are more likely to respond, the statistics would be skewed.

Just my $.015

Adam

 

[JeremyR]

I understand where you are coming from on this, but in many ways I do believe the rio rep is deserved. IME there are 2 classes of rios.. the little ones (800 and smaller) and the big ones (1100up). The big ones blow up, the little ones usually don't do anything worse than blow out an impeller. No matter what you can say about all the makes & models of rios, in all my years of working in and owning LFS's, I have never had another sub pump fry and flip the breaker.. I've had 3 rios do it personally, and had to listen to many more from people. I've had enough of them fail, that I never open one for store use anymore. My motto lately is, if it isn't UL listed, don't use it.

For people looking for rio replacements, and who want an alternative to MAG's, look at the sedra pumps if you can find them.. UL listed, 2 yr warranty, seem very reliable. They are the same as the SEN pumps, but have more models, 250gph thru 1200 gph.

 

[Anonymous]

My gosh I believe this is only the 2nd time I've started a topic as I usually just answer questions.
I admire your fervor ( I wish I had the energy ) but a bunch of threads all going off half-cocked aren't gonna go anywhere.
What do you want out of the Rio questions ?
What kind of answers ?
Are you just looking at Rio pumps ?
Are you looking at what failed on the Rio ?
Are you asking about the different models ?
Are you asking about the different uses ? i.e. reef vs. FO ?
Are you looking at catastrophic failure or just failure ?
Do you want to include other pumps, powerheads ?
If so are you aware of the vast number of brands and and models ( different countries different models ) ?
You now have to differentiate between the brands, models, usages, years in service, types of failures, etc.
Are you sorta getting the idea ?
When someone posts they've used 20 Rios over the past 5 years with 1 failure, how do you figure that in your stats ?
Basically you throw it out because it means nothing in the grand sceme of things.
You need very specific questions and answers.
You need brands, models, usages, years in service, etc.
I'd strongly suggest you set up a new thread to discuss what you want out of a pump/powerhead survey, discuss it with JamesW, Chucker, DBW, etc.( the powers that be here ) and see what can be accomplished.
It really is a daunting task if you want something that holds any significance or credence.
I'm goona stay out of the fray but will help out if asked.

Regards,
David Mohr

 

[reeferguy1]

Well I was going to stay out of all the rio bashing but I cant hold my lips shut any longer.As a LFS manager and an owner in the past,I have really seen a huge downfall in the quality of the rio pump.As far as the defense of being maintaned properly and not being using the with Kalk. is so wrong.We had three rio 2500's go out in the matter of a week on our 600 gal reef display.One of them was blowing smoke bubbles to the surface and let out a bad oil slick,and it was only 2 days old.Same result with two more in a 2 week period.We have decided to take them off the shelf until their quality control gets back up to par.We get back 5- 7 rio's a week returned that are burned up or seized(some of these only days old)Everything from the small ones all the way up.We have replaced almost all of ours with either Mag's or Maxi-jets.I thought I would put my 2 cents in since I deal with these pumps(and the MAD CUSTOMERS)everyday.
Much Respect Mon
reeferguy

 

[Anonymous]

I think people misinterpretated my intentions when I suggested you start another thread and maybe do another survey. The reason I stated this was that there were about 4 different threads going in different directions, while in a common thread everyone can pull together and maybe come up with something of use to others. I'm not bashing Rios or lauding them or the same with any other pump or powerhead. I'd like to see people suggestions on what we as hobbiest can do to help others whether they use Rios or not.
One example I can see as it gets asked all the time in Rio threads is " what did you replace your Rio with ? " Was there a noticeable difference in performance ( no don't say well it didn't blowup ) but would the pump you replaced it with meet your expectations ? Would you have chosen a different one ?
Something like that. Something of substance that will benefit others.
Now do you see where I'm coming from ?
There's more to this then just Rios as other pumps while they might not suffer catastrophic failure just aren't worth buying.

Regards,
David Mohr

 

[gazpep]

I guess theres a potential for any mechanical or electrical device to fail, but if the consequence of that failure can be catastrophic,i.e involving more than the loss of the device itself then thats where we should be concerning ourselves with the survey. If someone is unknowingly putting the value of his investment in his animals, blood sweat and tears in this hobby to an unacceptable risk then lets try to alert them to it.

A pump stopping or having a poor reliabilty record is one thing, one failing and taking out an entire system is another thing altogether. I've not yet had an event like that happen, but I'd hate to think theres a potential time bomb ticking away unbeknowns to me.

 

[bigtank]

I hate Rios too. My Remora Pro came with the 1400. This pump would not start when turned back on without shaking it hard. It was also one loud SOB. After months of using that piece of crap, I finally got me a Mag 3 and have yet to experience any trouble.

LUCKILY the rio didn't fry my tank. It sure could have...

AquaC unfortunately still supplies the Rios with their Remora and Urchin skimmers. TAAM must not listen to everyone's experience, and I'm surprised they are still in business...working flat out to produce the worst pumps ever made.

 

[BReefCase]

IMPO, Rios are an unnecessary risk.

I've had many kinds of pumps and powerheads, over more years than I care to admit to. Some brands are better than others, and they all do wear out eventually, but this is just a matter of replacing an impeller or a seal, with no harm done; except for Rios.

Only ONE brand of powerhead has failed me in such a manner as to slag an entire tank, and that was a Rio powerhead -- years ago, one of the first Rios I ever had, and within a year of my getting my first Rio.

It wiped out a thriving, long-established 55 gallon invert tank in a matter of minutes, apparently by letting 110 line voltage directly into the tank, and even a grounding probe and GFI protected outlet couldn't stop it.

I dumped all my Rio products right then and there, and have never used another, either pump or powerhead.

FWIW, Minijet and Maxijet powerheads seem to serve best, which will come as no big surprise to experienced reefers or to long time readers of this board.

Rios are suspect both by experience and by reputation, and there are lots of good alternatives to Rios, so I don't risk it.

Give your reef keeping dollars to responsive manufactureres who EARN it by making good products.

 

[MattM]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bigtank:
<STRONG>AquaC unfortunately still supplies the Rios with their Remora and Urchin skimmers.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Check my recent post in this thread.

 

[jethro]

I moved my post to the Rio 600 thread.

[ July 12, 2001: Message edited by: jethro ]

 

[SPC]

I would like to see this survey done and then published in a way that more hobiest get to read it. My idea would be to run a survey, submit it to the makers of Rio pumps for their input, and then publish the survey results. Are there legal issues involved here? I agree with David that the info on rio pumps needs to be narrowed down to better understand the problems. We that participate on these boards are but a small fraction of those that buy these pumps, do we as dedicated hobbiest have a responsibility to the overall hobbie, or just to those who read these boards? We profess to be conscientious hobbiest who care about the welfare of all marine animals, do we stand by and watch as a piece of equipment that is widely used is possibly killing marine life?
Let me also point out that I am well aware of the fact that the marine life killed by pumps is a drop in the bucket compared to other factors. My point is that this could possibly be a start in a pursuit to actually make some difference on a larger scale.
Steve

 

[Len]

From my understanding, TAAM has heard and acknowledges all the complaints. They simply aren't willing to redesign their products because of high remanufacturing costs which would utlimately be passed on to the consumer.

Uneducated hobbyists (those that constitute the greater population) buy Rios because of their attractive pricing; to reengineer their pumps, restamp injection molds, re-source their impellar assembly parts, UL/CSA certify their products, etc. would not only be very time consuming, but very cost prohibitive. As a profit-earning company that sells "low-end" (ie affordable) products, that's not their concern. If they can make a profit, everything else is inconsequential.

All that needs to be understood is that Rio products are poorly built. If history tells us anything about this company, nothing we do or say will change that. Countless anecdotal first-hand observations is evidence enough not to bother with this product. If you choose to skimp, be forewarned the probable risks you're taking. I don't see much (if any) good coming out of a standardized survey. With the information already posted on the various BB's, it'd be a horrible waste of time, space and bandwidth.

BTW, to justify my stance on Rios, I've had a 200, 800, 1700, 2100, and 2500 fail on me in my reef tank. Some failures have been catastrophic. Rio 600's have worked out fine for me, though one should not use this model (or any Rio) on a wavemaking (on/off) device. I've given the company countless chances. I post negative things about Rios (bash if you will) because Rios perform deplorably, and I wouldn't want to invite this kind of misery on another hobbyist.

[ July 12, 2001: Message edited by: Leonard ]

 

[bigtank]

It's about time