Here's a stumper for you...

[Anonymous]

Okay, something interesting is going on in my tank and I can't figure it out for the life of me...

Quick rundown:

75 gal reef w/ Ecosystem mud filter
Sump lit 24/7 with 2x65w halogen 'plant-lights'
Main tank lit with 2x250w 6500K MH & 2x96w VHO (1 50/50, 1 full actinic) URI bulbs
Heavy bioload--2 maroon clowns, bluejaw trigger, lineatus tang, coral beauty angel, 18"+ gigantea anemone, various small corals & polyps

Now here's the interesting thing... All the corals, the anemone, and the fish are thriving. SPS & leathers polyp out like mad, the anemone is growing like a weed, etc. I feed an ungodly amount of food to keep the fish and anemone happy--usually 1 big prawn shrimp (diced) and about a heaping tablespoon of mixed flake (mostly prime reef and formula 2) per day, all soaked in selcon.

What's so weird about this? I cannot grow algae! None. Zip. Zero. About every three weeks or so I'll have to scrape the inside walls of the tank, but it's just a very light film, almost no cyano. Corraline grows fine, but there's no valonia, no hair, virtually no cyano, no slime, etc. The sump can barely sustain algae growth, and I'm supplementing with iron. I've tried several different types of caulerpa, and it all slowly dies off. Halimeda seems to be growing, but it's such a slow grower, it's never going to be the right fit for the sump.

Just to add to the mystery, I ran out of nitrate tests awhile back, but the animals (corals too!) are doing so great, I didn't bother to check them. I brought a water sample in to the lfs yesterday and ammonia tested unreadable, nitrites just barely registered, and nitrates were pretty elevated (they didn't tell me a ppm count). I'm going to go get a new test kit today and run them myself to be sure, but shouldn't the caulerpa (or any algae for that matter) be thriving in this environment????

My salinity does vary between top-offs, but I wouldn't think it'd be drastic enough to cause the caulerpa to die off. I'm running a more complete series of tests now, but I'd say it varies by no more than 1.021 - 1.025 over a 5 day period.

Okay, gang...whatcha think??????

Thanks!


-John

 

[Anonymous]

I have a 75 that grows algea like mad. In the tank, the sump, the refugium, you name it.

Wanna trade???

Why do you want to grow algea? Most grow macro to prevent nusiance algea. If you have no nusiance algea, why bother?

Louey

 

[esmithiii]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

My salinity does vary between top-offs, but I wouldn't think it'd be drastic enough to cause the caulerpa to die off. I'm running a more complete series of tests now, but I'd say it varies by no more than 1.021 - 1.025 over a 5 day period.

This is a huge swing. Do you mean 1.0251-1.0255 instead? I can't believe your fish haven't stressed out on you if this is the case. I would seriously consider an auto-top off system.

Ernie

 

[danmhippo]

Do you have a iron test kit (not that I know where to get one). It's just that if your macro never establish and you keep adding more iron..........

Also just curious, the plant light......how well does it penetrates water? The halogen plant light are used mostly with terrestrial plants, don't know if your macros is getting the needed wavelength?

 

[Anonymous]

I couldn't grow caulerpa until I started dripping kalk. I would put it in and it would die off and disappear over the week. Once I started dripping kalk, it took off. I've heard others say this too, but it was a long time ago, so I don't know if you'd be able to find it on a search. I believe they purged everything dated before September. Good luck.

 

[SPC]

Posted by Sharkky:
but I'd say it varies by no more than 1.021 - 1.025 over a 5 day period.

-John, I'd say there is a good chance that this is your problem. From my readings about macro algae they are very sensitive to salinity changes. I would also imagine that this big a swing is not great for your other reef inhabitants either.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Louey:
<strong>
Why do you want to grow algea? Most grow macro to prevent nusiance algea. If you have no nusiance algea, why bother?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Need the macros for nitrate export. Want to send me some of your macros to try and start my sump up again?

-John

 

[Anonymous]

That SG swing is huge and is certainly a factor.

What kind of skimmer do you have?

A large skimmer will remove the nutrients before it ever gets to the caulerpa. As far as the halimeda goes,dose kalk and it will grow rather quickly.

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ANEMONEBUFF:
<strong>That SG swing is huge and is certainly a factor.

What kind of skimmer do you have?

A large skimmer will remove the nutrients before it ever gets to the caulerpa. As far as the halimeda goes,dose kalk and it will grow rather quickly.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thanks for all the advice. I'll start keeping a much closer eye on the salinity and topping off daily instead of every 4-5 days; see if that helps. It sounds like that's the most likely culprit.

To reply to this post, it's a skimmerless tank, running the ecosystem mud filter. Gotta throw in my disclaimer here: I know lots of people are skeptics, and I was one too, but I seem to be having great luck with the tank so far (apart from the inability to grow algae).

John 'That Sharkky Guy'

 

[SPC]

Posted by Sharkky:
To reply to this post, it's a skimmerless tank, running the ecosystem mud filter. Gotta throw in my disclaimer here: I know lots of people are skeptics, and I was one too, but I seem to be having great luck with the tank so far (apart from the inability to grow algae).

-John, isn't a big part of the ecosytems success related to using algae for export? I have nothing against this system, I was just curious as to what you would base your success on.
Steve

 

[NaH2Ofreak]

I would be worried about dectectable nitrites also. How long has this tank been set up? I have a feeling that an algae bloom may be sneaking up on you. I hope not!

Dennis

 

[loonz]

Ditto with Steve.John, all the mudsystems I have seen have some sort of macroalgae growing in them, do you mean yours is devoid of any algae??That would be very strange indeed!

 

[Anonymous]

It seems pretty simple to me. You are underfeeding your tank. There is not enough excess nutrients for the algae to grow. Feed more, and algae will grow. Its an energy balance. You are underestimating your nutrient demand. I feed 3 times per day, with a very high nutrient food as well as frozen. I have to adjust my feeding to control algae growth. I can reduce it by feeding less. I have both a refugium with macro algae and an ATS.

 

[Anonymous]

In response to a couple of posts at once...

The tank has been up for nearly a year, using cured live-rock that had been up for 3+ years in my old tank. (I moved and went from a 110 tall to a 75)

I did another water test, still barely detectable nitrites, nitrates off the scale at 140ppm+. Yikes!! Did a roughly 50% water change last night, probably do another tonight or tomorrow, then retest. Salinity is holding much more steady now at 1.0230 - 1.0234. All the corals (soft and hard) and the anemone are still doing fantastic, as are other inverts (snails, shrimp, crabs, etc.)

I don't want to give the impression that the tank is completely barren of algae. There is a very slight film of diatoms on the bottom inch or so of the glass, but nothing on the substrate or rocks (and that film is approx 2 weeks worth of build-up). The sump (lit 24/7) does have some algae, but not clumps and overflowing like I know most refugiums are. I've got a couple strands of halimeda, a couple wads of green slime (real thick, mucousy stuff), and a few small strands of various caulerpa species, mostly less than an inch long and clinging to the couple rocks that are in there as holdfast-bases.

I wish the idea of underfeeding were true. I feed what I would say is 2-3 times more than the tank really needs. All my fish are fat and healthy (the lineatus tang is 4" long and close to an inch thick!). The sky-high nitrates leads me to believe that it was the salinity shifts that caused the caulerpa to constantly crash. I'm going to try to make it to the only lfs in the region (95 mi away) that carries caulerpa on a regular basis this weekend and see if I can try again.

Now my question with that is will the elevated nitrates affect the acclimation of the caulerpa? Am I better off to reduce the nitrates with water changes and *then* go get the caulerpa? Or get it now while the water is still relatively nutrient-rich? Also, as a sidebar, what about xenia or star polyps? I've heard that they both do relatively well as nitrate-exporters...?

As always, thanks!


John 'That Sharkky Guy'

 

[Mouse]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> I did another water test, still barely detectable nitrites, nitrates off the scale at 140ppm+. Yikes!! Did a roughly 50% water change last night, probably do another tonight or tomorrow, then retest. Salinity is holding much more steady now at 1.0230 - 1.0234. All the corals (soft and hard) and the anemone are still doing fantastic, as are other inverts (snails, shrimp, crabs, etc.)
<hr></blockquote>

140ppm, i dont beleave it. Everything would be FUBAR (****ed up beyond all recognition).

Either you have an addative thats playing with the readout, or you screwed up the test or something.

Have you tried a DOC (Disolved Organic Compounds) test, it may be better than the Nitrate test if your getting readings like that.

DOC tests will also give you a better idea how the level nutrients in the water are. And i would suggest that if you get a zero reading here, then id feed some more.

I cant beleav a Nitrate level that large can exist in a system with such apparently happy inhabitants.

Do you have any Corraline growth?

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mouse:
<strong>

140ppm, i dont beleave it. Everything would be FUBAR (****ed up beyond all recognition).

Either you have an addative thats playing with the readout, or you screwed up the test or something.

Have you tried a DOC (Disolved Organic Compounds) test, it may be better than the Nitrate test if your getting readings like that.

I cant beleav a Nitrate level that large can exist in a system with such apparently happy inhabitants.

Do you have any Corraline growth?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, see I agree totally. The test was a drytab done by the lfs. I watched the whole deal, and they did the test right. To make a long story short, I have a $1200 college tuition bill (summer classes to keep my teaching licensure current) sitting on my table at home, so I can't go out and buy new test kits until I get paid tomorrow, so that's why I did the lfs route. I'm at a loss, as well, since all the animals are doing fine, especially the inverts.

About the DOC, I've never heard of that one...where would I go to do such a test? That sounds like a pretty good thing to line up.

Corraline is growing, although noticable growth has slowed in recent days. When I flip a rock over to show the 'non-corraline' side though, it'll be pretty-well covered in purple within 2 - 3 weeks.

Well, like the heading says--It's a stumper!! I've been doing this for over a decade and I'm just scratching my head over this. Guess it goes to show there's always more to learn, huh??

-John

 

[SPC]

Posted by Sharkky:
Corraline is growing, although noticable growth has slowed in recent days.

-You can tell that your corraline growth has slowed down in "the last couple of days?" I couldn't even tell you if mine has slowed down in the last couple of weeks?

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mouse:
<strong>I saw the pictures on your site and the tank look immaculately clean. Maybee your TOO good

</strong><hr></blockquote>

LOL, I wish!

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SPC:
<strong>Posted by Sharkky:
Corraline is growing, although noticable growth has slowed in recent days.

-You can tell that your corraline growth has slowed down in "the last couple of days?" I couldn't even tell you if mine has slowed down in the last couple of weeks?

Steve</strong><hr></blockquote>

Okay, say within the past week or two.

A rock I had rearranged a week and a half or so back hasn't started taking on much of a purple hue yet. Usually it would not be completely encrusted by now, but at least showing signs of growth. Also, an encrusting montipora I fragged hasn't started growing over the plug yet. The mother colony closed up okay but the frag is slow getting started.

-John

 

[Mouse]

I saw the pictures on your site and the tank look immaculately clean. Maybee your TOO good